Sense consciousness

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:03 pm
cyril wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:28 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:37 pm Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?
Because it arises as a result of the material, physical senses.
Sorry I don’t think we can fully understand all of this. What are physical senses? Sorry to be obvious. I am trying to picture the connection between these.
It refers to the physical apparatus of the body:
Vibrations of air molecules striking the ear drum,
Reflected light hitting the retina in the eye,
Salts, acids, sugars on the tongue
Hot, cold, smooth, rough, hard, soft against the skin.
Do these examples make it clearer?
These are sensory experiences relying on the physical body.
But you can also experience those same sensations without involving those actual parts of the body at all. Example: when dreaming.
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Re: Sense consciousness

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Which one comes first chicken or egg?
What are you really clear of ? :lol:
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Re: Sense consciousness

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What you guys saying are there is a connection amongst: consciousness, sensations, and thoughts right? But they are not the same. Sensations are not consciousness and thoughts are not sensations. But sensations can arise consciousness? No yes?
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cyril
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by cyril »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:03 pm
cyril wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:28 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:37 pm Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?
Because it arises as a result of the material, physical senses.
Sorry I don’t think we can fully understand all of this. What are physical senses? Sorry to be obvious. I am trying to picture the connection between these.
Let's take vision as an example. It starts with light travelling through your cornea and eye lens and hitting your retina, where the photoreceptors are located. From here, the visual information is transmitted to the retinal neurons, the optical nerve and the area of cortex that is responsible for processing visual information. That is the physical basis that the eye-consciousnesses arises dependant on. When you dream, your eyes are closed and the images you see are not there in the real sense; still, your brain processes the visual information in the usual way. That is due to the eye-consciousness being active.

Now, here's the thing: the images you see in your dream are the kind of images you would normally see with your human eyes. You will never dream the kind of images that can be perceived through the composite eyes and the nervous system of an insect or through a bat's sonar. That is because your eye-consciousness arises based on your physical senses which are the visual apparatus of a human being. In the case of a person born blind, the dreams are never visual but tactile, auditory, olfactory and so on. That is because in this case there were no physical senses the eye-consciousness could arise based upon.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:03 pm
cyril wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:28 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:37 pm Why is it called sense consciousness? Not just consciousness?
Because it arises as a result of the material, physical senses.
Sorry I don’t think we can fully understand all of this. What are physical senses? Sorry to be obvious. I am trying to picture the connection between these.
You know... the five senses (aka. five sense organs, five sense faculties). The eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and body. Each of them perceive as follows, visual form, sound, smell, taste, touch/contact sensation. These are "objects" of the senses. Then this information goes into the corresponding consciousness... visual form goes into the eye, and then is perceived by the eye consciousness... etc.

Actually, the sixth consciousness (mind consciousness) would also be considered a sense consciousness, corresponding to the sixth sense -- the mind sense organ. So the six sense consciousnesses are referring to the consciousnesses corresponding to the five "physical" senses as well as the mind sense organ.

And all of these six sense consciousnesses are basically just one consciousness, you can call it "mind." Then there are the other two consciousnesses (the 7th and 8th) that don't receive information from the six senses.
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sense consciousness

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LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:52 pm What you guys saying are there is a connection amongst: consciousness, sensations, and thoughts right? But they are not the same. Sensations are not consciousness and thoughts are not sensations. But sensations can arise consciousness? No yes?
Sensations are felt by the body, and they're perceived by the body consciousness.

Thoughts arise in the mind (organ) and are perceived by the mind consciousness.

(The body consciousness is what feels body sensations when dreaming.)
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Re: Sense consciousness

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How many separate consciousnesses are there? I am thinking one but divided into six. I have no idea.
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:43 pm How many separate consciousnesses are there? I am thinking one but divided into six. I have no idea.
Johnny Dangerous posted a link above about the 8 consciousnesses. The first 6 are sense consciousnesses. The 7th consciousness is often known as the ego. The 8th is the alaya consciousness, aka the storehouse consciousness.
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Re: Sense consciousness

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cyril wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:09 pm Let's take vision as an example. It starts with light travelling through your cornea and eye lens and hitting your retina, where the photoreceptors are located. From here, the visual information is transmitted to the retinal neurons, the optical nerve and the area of cortex that is responsible for processing visual information. That is the physical basis that the eye-consciousnesses arises dependant on.
So the material cells prompt consciousness to know the sensations because sensations cannot know themselves?

So can sensations exist without consciousness?

When you dream, your eyes are closed and the images you see are not there in the real sense; still, your brain processes the visual information in the usual way. That is due to the eye-consciousness being active.
Alright now it’s getting mixed with science. I get more confused. Okay eye consciousness sounds agreeable.
Now, here's the thing: the images you see in your dream are the kind of images you would normally see with your human eyes. You will never dream the kind of images that can be perceived through the composite eyes and the nervous system of an insect or through a bat's sonar. That is because your eye-consciousness arises based on your physical senses which are the visual apparatus of a human being. In the case of a person born blind, the dreams are never visual but tactile, auditory, olfactory and so on. That is because in this case there were no physical senses the eye-consciousness could arise based upon.
Okay what about thoughts because as far as I know images are thoughts and not consciousness. Maybe you have a different definition of consciousness? What about other aggregates? Are they active in dream?
Last edited by LastLegend on Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sense consciousness

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LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:43 pm How many separate consciousnesses are there? I am thinking one but divided into six. I have no idea.
It depends who you are asking.. check the wiki link I posted earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Con ... iousnesses
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Re: Sense consciousness

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:30 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:52 pm What you guys saying are there is a connection amongst: consciousness, sensations, and thoughts right? But they are not the same. Sensations are not consciousness and thoughts are not sensations. But sensations can arise consciousness? No yes?
Sensations are felt by the body, and they're perceived by the body consciousness.

Thoughts arise in the mind (organ) and are perceived by the mind consciousness.

(The body consciousness is what feels body sensations when dreaming.)
Are all consciousnesses including 8 or 9 present at any instant?
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Re: Sense consciousness

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LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:54 pm
Now, here's the thing: the images you see in your dream are the kind of images you would normally see with your human eyes. You will never dream the kind of images that can be perceived through the composite eyes and the nervous system of an insect or through a bat's sonar. That is because your eye-consciousness arises based on your physical senses which are the visual apparatus of a human being. In the case of a person born blind, the dreams are never visual but tactile, auditory, olfactory and so on. That is because in this case there were no physical senses the eye-consciousness could arise based upon.
Okay what about thoughts because as far as I know images are thoughts and not consciousness. Maybe you have a different definition of consciousness? What about other aggregates? Are they active in dream?
I've heard some zen teachers use the term "thoughts" as a catch-all phrase for anything that happens in the mind. But the images perceived in the mind are considered "forms" perceived by the eye consciousness. Even in dreams.

Even though the eyes are not perceiving anything when you're asleep, the eye consciousness is active. All of the forms that you've ever seen are stored in your consciousness and they appear in the mind when you're dreaming. This is true with all of the other sense consciousnesses, even though the senses are not so active when you're asleep.

All of the 8 consciousnesses are active in dreams. You could actually just call it "consciousness" if you don't like dividing things. But this is how buddhism talks about the mind.
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Re: Sense consciousness

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:05 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:54 pm
Now, here's the thing: the images you see in your dream are the kind of images you would normally see with your human eyes. You will never dream the kind of images that can be perceived through the composite eyes and the nervous system of an insect or through a bat's sonar. That is because your eye-consciousness arises based on your physical senses which are the visual apparatus of a human being. In the case of a person born blind, the dreams are never visual but tactile, auditory, olfactory and so on. That is because in this case there were no physical senses the eye-consciousness could arise based upon.
Okay what about thoughts because as far as I know images are thoughts and not consciousness. Maybe you have a different definition of consciousness? What about other aggregates? Are they active in dream?
I've heard some zen teachers use the term "thoughts" as a catch-all phrase for anything that happens in the mind. But the images perceived in the mind are considered "forms" perceived by the eye consciousness. Even in dreams.

Even though the eyes are not perceiving anything when you're asleep, the eye consciousness is active. All of the forms that you've ever seen are stored in your consciousness and they appear in the mind when you're dreaming. This is true with all of the other sense consciousnesses, even though the senses are not so active when you're asleep.

All of the 8 consciousnesses are active in dreams. You could actually just call it "consciousness" if you don't like dividing things. But this is how buddhism talks about the mind.
Okay sir.

Why are there five aggregates but the way we talk about it here seems like there is only consciousness?
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:09 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:05 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:54 pm

Okay what about thoughts because as far as I know images are thoughts and not consciousness. Maybe you have a different definition of consciousness? What about other aggregates? Are they active in dream?
I've heard some zen teachers use the term "thoughts" as a catch-all phrase for anything that happens in the mind. But the images perceived in the mind are considered "forms" perceived by the eye consciousness. Even in dreams.

Even though the eyes are not perceiving anything when you're asleep, the eye consciousness is active. All of the forms that you've ever seen are stored in your consciousness and they appear in the mind when you're dreaming. This is true with all of the other sense consciousnesses, even though the senses are not so active when you're asleep.

All of the 8 consciousnesses are active in dreams. You could actually just call it "consciousness" if you don't like dividing things. But this is how buddhism talks about the mind.
Okay sir.

Why are there five aggregates but the way we talk about it here seems like there is only consciousness?
Well... The 5 aggregates are also called "body and mind."

The body is the aggregate of form (1st)... feelings (2nd) can be either feelings in the body or feelings in the mind... perception (3rd), mental formations (4th) and consciousness (5th) can all be considered mind (a.k.a. consciousness). The abhidharma goes into these things in profound detail, but it's kind of long and complicated...

The 5 sense organs and the 5 sense objects they perceive are considered form (1st aggregate), the mind organ and the thoughts it perceives would be considered consciousness (5th aggregate). The 6 sense consciousnesses are also consciousness (5th aggregate). So when we're talking about perception through the senses, we generally talk about mind and body in this way.

I think all aggregates are active in dream except for the body (1st aggregate).
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Re: Sense consciousness

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Honestly I get confused yo. I am resorting to this: what part of aggregates that knows a table from a chair?
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:37 pm Honestly I get confused yo. I am resorting to this: what part of aggregates that knows a table from a chair?
Oh, that question is very clear! Yes!
I totally get what you are asking now!!
Sometimes I don’t understand the point people are making. This happens to me all the time. I frequently have to ask for clarification. But now I get what your question is! Answer: I don’t know.
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Re: Sense consciousness

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:lol: :rolling: :rolling:

Okay what knows “I don’t know”?
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by cyril »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:37 pm Honestly I get confused yo. I am resorting to this: what part of aggregates that knows a table from a chair?
Cognizing and labeling are both functions of the citta. But in the scheme of the 6 consciousnesses, ideation is the domain of the mind consciousness.
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Re: Sense consciousness

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LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:51 pm :lol: :rolling: :rolling:

Okay what knows “I don’t know”?
The aggregates don’t know anything.
It is the mind that knows stuff.
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Re: Sense consciousness

Post by cyril »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:51 pm :lol: :rolling: :rolling:

Okay what knows “I don’t know”?
You might not believe it, but it is exactly the the same thing that knows "we are getting off-topic now".
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