If there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pmThe experience of sound only occurs in the mind.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:45 pm It’s not simply a matter of perception. How do we know an object (example:sound)?
In terms of physical matter, there is only the vibration of air molecules hitting the ear drum, creating an electrical pulse in the brain.
An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
It’s eye blinking.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
“Collective karma” means that as beings who share much of the same causes and conditions (being human, for example) we experience phenomena in very much the same way and our actions express that.
A very good example of collective karma would be many drivers in cars on a busy freeway. Each driver of course is (or should be!) focused on their own car. Yet, there is also a collective awareness of how busy the freeway is, whether the traffic is moving quickly or slowly, and among a cluster of cars, for each driver, what the others around him or her is doing. Without the collective awareness (and thus, karma) everybody would simply crash into each other. When collective karma isn’t functioning, in fact, that is exactly what happens.
The assertion that everything is occurring in the mind also refers to karma. Where, outside of your own mind, are you even interacting with anything?
Furthermore, one naturally asks how the things around them (other people, solid objects, sounds, etc) can only be occurring in their own mind. But you have to look beyond that: the very experience of “things” as static entities is a mistaken perception. In other words, you might argue, “that chair is not just a figment of my imagination!” However, the very fact that you perceive and experience “that chair” as an intrinsically existing object (rather thsn as a slowly occurring stream of continuously changing events) is itself purely the experience within your own mind. On that level, or in that regard, every”thing” is only happening in your own mind. The fact that this is a shared delusion is collective karma.
A very good example of collective karma would be many drivers in cars on a busy freeway. Each driver of course is (or should be!) focused on their own car. Yet, there is also a collective awareness of how busy the freeway is, whether the traffic is moving quickly or slowly, and among a cluster of cars, for each driver, what the others around him or her is doing. Without the collective awareness (and thus, karma) everybody would simply crash into each other. When collective karma isn’t functioning, in fact, that is exactly what happens.
The assertion that everything is occurring in the mind also refers to karma. Where, outside of your own mind, are you even interacting with anything?
Furthermore, one naturally asks how the things around them (other people, solid objects, sounds, etc) can only be occurring in their own mind. But you have to look beyond that: the very experience of “things” as static entities is a mistaken perception. In other words, you might argue, “that chair is not just a figment of my imagination!” However, the very fact that you perceive and experience “that chair” as an intrinsically existing object (rather thsn as a slowly occurring stream of continuously changing events) is itself purely the experience within your own mind. On that level, or in that regard, every”thing” is only happening in your own mind. The fact that this is a shared delusion is collective karma.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
I’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:17 pmIf there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pmThe experience of sound only occurs in the mind.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:45 pm It’s not simply a matter of perception. How do we know an object (example:sound)?
In terms of physical matter, there is only the vibration of air molecules hitting the ear drum, creating an electrical pulse in the brain.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
They don’t. They go into solitary retreats and avoid each other!
Ha ha ha
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
The teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pmI’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:17 pmIf there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pm
The experience of sound only occurs in the mind.
In terms of physical matter, there is only the vibration of air molecules hitting the ear drum, creating an electrical pulse in the brain.
If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
It’s eye blinking.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
Sorry it’s a difficult question. Because that’s how my teacher asks me.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
What is the sense organ capable of making contact with the dharmas in another's mind? Is this the mind as the sixth consciousness? The seventh? Is this the capacity that when developed allows beings to know the thoughts of others?Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pmThe traces in your mind can produce appearances in the minds of others and vice versa. The classic example given for this is the women who meditated upon herself as a tiger, and terrified everyone in a village.Arnold3000 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:08 pmVasubandhu describes intersubjectivity in Yogacara as the direct influence of the mind on the mind.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:45 pm It’s not simply a matter of perception. How do we know an object (example:sound)?
Does my mind directly interact with your mind?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
What do you mean by “seeing”?LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:37 pmThe teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pmI’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:17 pm
If there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.
If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
Can you clarify that exactly?
....
In a dream, the things you experience are not real
But they appear real in relation to your experience of your dream-self as real.
It’s the same when you are not asleep.
....
Simply understanding non-self in theory is not enough to liberate one, just as understanding how food is cooked does not satisfy hunger.
There needs to be direct experience.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
In direct visual awareness why would there be that which sees and it’s quite bold? If self isn’t constructed what is that appearance!?PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:23 pmWhat do you mean by “seeing”?LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:37 pmThe teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pm
I’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.
If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
Can you clarify that exactly?
....
In a dream, the things you experience are not real
But they appear real in relation to your experience of your dream-self as real.
It’s the same when you are not asleep.
....
Simply understanding non-self in theory is not enough to liberate one, just as understanding how food is cooked does not satisfy hunger.
There needs to be direct experience.
It’s eye blinking.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
That’s the whole point: the appearance is an illusion because the self is an illusion and vice-versa.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:35 pmIn direct visual awareness why would there be that which sees and it’s quite bold? If self isn’t constructed what is that appearance!?PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:23 pmWhat do you mean by “seeing”?LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:37 pm
The teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.
If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
Can you clarify that exactly?
....
In a dream, the things you experience are not real
But they appear real in relation to your experience of your dream-self as real.
It’s the same when you are not asleep.
....
Simply understanding non-self in theory is not enough to liberate one, just as understanding how food is cooked does not satisfy hunger.
There needs to be direct experience.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
Sure! We all are enlightened.
Yogacara talks about consciousness as the source of everything arises in mind. I might be wrong.
Yogacara talks about consciousness as the source of everything arises in mind. I might be wrong.
It’s eye blinking.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
It goes back to sound: how do we know sound? There must be a part of mind that knows. It’s not perception. This part that knows, I think, is relative to other object...like sound has to be known in comparison to something else.
There could be a sound constantly banging in front of us, but mind’s attention is not turn to it. We don’t hear it.
There could be a sound constantly banging in front of us, but mind’s attention is not turn to it. We don’t hear it.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
The mano-dhātu.Queequeg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:03 pmWhat is the sense organ capable of making contact with the dharmas in another's mind? Is this the mind as the sixth consciousness? The seventh? Is this the capacity that when developed allows beings to know the thoughts of others?Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pmThe traces in your mind can produce appearances in the minds of others and vice versa. The classic example given for this is the women who meditated upon herself as a tiger, and terrified everyone in a village.Arnold3000 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:08 pm
Vasubandhu describes intersubjectivity in Yogacara as the direct influence of the mind on the mind.
Does my mind directly interact with your mind?
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
Answer this:LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:57 pm It goes back to sound: how do we know sound? There must be a part of mind that knows. It’s not perception. This part that knows, I think, is relative to other object...like sound has to be known in comparison to something else.
There could be a sound constantly banging in front of us, but mind’s attention is not turn to it. We don’t hear it.
If you were to wear 100% sound-blocking headphones ( let’s just say such a thing exists) what would you hear?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
Why do you need to hear?PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:17 pmAnswer this:LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:57 pm It goes back to sound: how do we know sound? There must be a part of mind that knows. It’s not perception. This part that knows, I think, is relative to other object...like sound has to be known in comparison to something else.
There could be a sound constantly banging in front of us, but mind’s attention is not turn to it. We don’t hear it.
If you were to wear 100% sound-blocking headphones ( let’s just say such a thing exists) what would you hear?
It’s eye blinking.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
Are you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
I know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:35 pmAre you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
It’s eye blinking.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
We imagine there is a self because experience seems continuous. For example, we experience an hour rather than experiencing 7,200 half-seconds.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:03 pmI know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:35 pmAre you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
If you experienced 7,200 specifically arising “me” moments, each one produced by the previous one, the experience, the “feel” that there is a ‘self’ would be less likely to occur.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
Nice try.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:44 pmWe imagine there is a self because experience seems continuous. For example, we experience an hour rather than experiencing 7,200 half-seconds.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:03 pmI know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:35 pm
Are you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
If you experienced 7,200 specifically arising “me” moments, each one produced by the previous one, the experience, the “feel” that there is a ‘self’ would be less likely to occur.
It’s eye blinking.
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9448
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara
Well what “extra guy” are you eve talking about?LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:28 pmNice try.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:44 pmWe imagine there is a self because experience seems continuous. For example, we experience an hour rather than experiencing 7,200 half-seconds.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:03 pm
I know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.
I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
If you experienced 7,200 specifically arising “me” moments, each one produced by the previous one, the experience, the “feel” that there is a ‘self’ would be less likely to occur.
It’s not clear what you are asking.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.