An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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LastLegend
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by LastLegend »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:45 pm It’s not simply a matter of perception. How do we know an object (example:sound)?
The experience of sound only occurs in the mind.
In terms of physical matter, there is only the vibration of air molecules hitting the ear drum, creating an electrical pulse in the brain.
If there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.
It’s eye blinking.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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“Collective karma” means that as beings who share much of the same causes and conditions (being human, for example) we experience phenomena in very much the same way and our actions express that.
A very good example of collective karma would be many drivers in cars on a busy freeway. Each driver of course is (or should be!) focused on their own car. Yet, there is also a collective awareness of how busy the freeway is, whether the traffic is moving quickly or slowly, and among a cluster of cars, for each driver, what the others around him or her is doing. Without the collective awareness (and thus, karma) everybody would simply crash into each other. When collective karma isn’t functioning, in fact, that is exactly what happens.

The assertion that everything is occurring in the mind also refers to karma. Where, outside of your own mind, are you even interacting with anything?

Furthermore, one naturally asks how the things around them (other people, solid objects, sounds, etc) can only be occurring in their own mind. But you have to look beyond that: the very experience of “things” as static entities is a mistaken perception. In other words, you might argue, “that chair is not just a figment of my imagination!” However, the very fact that you perceive and experience “that chair” as an intrinsically existing object (rather thsn as a slowly occurring stream of continuously changing events) is itself purely the experience within your own mind. On that level, or in that regard, every”thing” is only happening in your own mind. The fact that this is a shared delusion is collective karma.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:45 pm It’s not simply a matter of perception. How do we know an object (example:sound)?
The experience of sound only occurs in the mind.
In terms of physical matter, there is only the vibration of air molecules hitting the ear drum, creating an electrical pulse in the brain.
If there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.
I’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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Arnold3000 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:56 pm How can people in Yogacara interact with each other?
They don’t. They go into solitary retreats and avoid each other!
:rolling:
Ha ha ha
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pm
The experience of sound only occurs in the mind.
In terms of physical matter, there is only the vibration of air molecules hitting the ear drum, creating an electrical pulse in the brain.
If there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.
I’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.
The teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.

If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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Sorry it’s a difficult question. Because that’s how my teacher asks me. :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:08 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:45 pm It’s not simply a matter of perception. How do we know an object (example:sound)?
Vasubandhu describes intersubjectivity in Yogacara as the direct influence of the mind on the mind.
Does my mind directly interact with your mind?
The traces in your mind can produce appearances in the minds of others and vice versa. The classic example given for this is the women who meditated upon herself as a tiger, and terrified everyone in a village.
What is the sense organ capable of making contact with the dharmas in another's mind? Is this the mind as the sixth consciousness? The seventh? Is this the capacity that when developed allows beings to know the thoughts of others?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:37 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:17 pm

If there is no self constructed, then why the appearance of visual presentation is very bold? My teacher rejects that as final.
I’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.
The teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.

If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
What do you mean by “seeing”?
Can you clarify that exactly?
....
In a dream, the things you experience are not real
But they appear real in relation to your experience of your dream-self as real.
It’s the same when you are not asleep.
....
Simply understanding non-self in theory is not enough to liberate one, just as understanding how food is cooked does not satisfy hunger.
There needs to be direct experience.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:23 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:37 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pm

I’m not sure I understand your question, but the vividness or “how real it looks” of phenomena is a direct reflection of how real we imagine ourself to be. The two go hand-in-hand.
The teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.

If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
What do you mean by “seeing”?
Can you clarify that exactly?
....
In a dream, the things you experience are not real
But they appear real in relation to your experience of your dream-self as real.
It’s the same when you are not asleep.
....
Simply understanding non-self in theory is not enough to liberate one, just as understanding how food is cooked does not satisfy hunger.
There needs to be direct experience.
In direct visual awareness why would there be that which sees and it’s quite bold? If self isn’t constructed what is that appearance!?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:35 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:23 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:37 pm

The teaching is non-self: upon analysis of causes and conditions there is no self. If simply understanding non-self this way, we’d all would be enlightened. I don’t think this is the case.

If no self is constructed, why would there be that bold appearance of seeing in the visual presentation? Considering why would there such be thing in direct emptiness experience?
What do you mean by “seeing”?
Can you clarify that exactly?
....
In a dream, the things you experience are not real
But they appear real in relation to your experience of your dream-self as real.
It’s the same when you are not asleep.
....
Simply understanding non-self in theory is not enough to liberate one, just as understanding how food is cooked does not satisfy hunger.
There needs to be direct experience.
In direct visual awareness why would there be that which sees and it’s quite bold? If self isn’t constructed what is that appearance!?
That’s the whole point: the appearance is an illusion because the self is an illusion and vice-versa.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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:lol: Sure! We all are enlightened.

Yogacara talks about consciousness as the source of everything arises in mind. I might be wrong.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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It goes back to sound: how do we know sound? There must be a part of mind that knows. It’s not perception. This part that knows, I think, is relative to other object...like sound has to be known in comparison to something else.

There could be a sound constantly banging in front of us, but mind’s attention is not turn to it. We don’t hear it.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pm
Arnold3000 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:08 pm
Vasubandhu describes intersubjectivity in Yogacara as the direct influence of the mind on the mind.
Does my mind directly interact with your mind?
The traces in your mind can produce appearances in the minds of others and vice versa. The classic example given for this is the women who meditated upon herself as a tiger, and terrified everyone in a village.
What is the sense organ capable of making contact with the dharmas in another's mind? Is this the mind as the sixth consciousness? The seventh? Is this the capacity that when developed allows beings to know the thoughts of others?
The mano-dhātu.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:57 pm It goes back to sound: how do we know sound? There must be a part of mind that knows. It’s not perception. This part that knows, I think, is relative to other object...like sound has to be known in comparison to something else.

There could be a sound constantly banging in front of us, but mind’s attention is not turn to it. We don’t hear it.
Answer this:
If you were to wear 100% sound-blocking headphones ( let’s just say such a thing exists) what would you hear?
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:17 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:57 pm It goes back to sound: how do we know sound? There must be a part of mind that knows. It’s not perception. This part that knows, I think, is relative to other object...like sound has to be known in comparison to something else.

There could be a sound constantly banging in front of us, but mind’s attention is not turn to it. We don’t hear it.
Answer this:
If you were to wear 100% sound-blocking headphones ( let’s just say such a thing exists) what would you hear?
Why do you need to hear?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:21 pmWhy do you need to hear?
Are you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:35 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:21 pmWhy do you need to hear?
Are you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
I know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.

I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:03 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:35 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:21 pmWhy do you need to hear?
Are you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
I know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.

I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
We imagine there is a self because experience seems continuous. For example, we experience an hour rather than experiencing 7,200 half-seconds.
If you experienced 7,200 specifically arising “me” moments, each one produced by the previous one, the experience, the “feel” that there is a ‘self’ would be less likely to occur.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by LastLegend »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:44 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:03 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:35 pm

Are you asking:
‘If there is no intrinsically existing self,
then why is there a cause for the senses to arise?’
I know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.

I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
We imagine there is a self because experience seems continuous. For example, we experience an hour rather than experiencing 7,200 half-seconds.
If you experienced 7,200 specifically arising “me” moments, each one produced by the previous one, the experience, the “feel” that there is a ‘self’ would be less likely to occur.
Nice try. :rolling:
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: An intersubjective experience in Yogacara

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:28 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:44 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:03 pm

I know what you were asking me earlier: the nature of seeing or hearing as in Sharagama Sutra.

I was asking: why is there an extra ‘guy’ there?
We imagine there is a self because experience seems continuous. For example, we experience an hour rather than experiencing 7,200 half-seconds.
If you experienced 7,200 specifically arising “me” moments, each one produced by the previous one, the experience, the “feel” that there is a ‘self’ would be less likely to occur.
Nice try. :rolling:
Well what “extra guy” are you eve talking about?
It’s not clear what you are asking.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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