rebirth and veganism

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Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by DNS »

clyde wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:05 pm What is determinate?
I don't think the suttas / sutras say specifically. But we can infer from some things that are found in the Tripitaka.

*Plants are considered one-facultied, not part of rebirth, but still should not be harmed by monks (Vinaya: Pac.10, 11).
*Animals are clearly part of samsara and face rebirth (numerous past life jataka stories, reports of people with past lives as animals).
*The five aggregates (skandhas) form, sensations, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness

So according to Buddhism for the living things on earth, we could say humans and all animals that possess the five aggregates, especially consciousness, i.e., some level or degree of self-awareness (as most likely being the determinate factor).
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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cjdevries wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:47 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:21 pm Perhaps plants don't or ignorance, or the capability to become enlightened... who knows!

I'm willing to bet that modern science and buddhism don't have the same definitions of sentience and consciousness. If we're using the word, what are the assumptions behind it?
cjdevries wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:22 pm I believe that in some forms of Taoism, they accept plants as part of the reincarnation cycle. I have heard teachers say that many of us had past lives as plants and even minerals. I know of highly developed healers who have directly communicated with mineral spirits.
That's very interesting. I know of shamans who practice with plant spirits in the amazon, but I've never heard of minerals. Every now and then you hear of great bodhisattvas inhabiting mountains... Do you mean crystals or rock?
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:25 pm
Yeah, I think this is generally the standard interpretation, that basically beings can inhabit plants, rocks, etc, as a sort of abode, but the abode is not itself necessarily in-and-of-itself sentient. And so for example in monastic precepts, one should not carelessly cut plants, uproot them, etc, any more than someone should perhaps burn down someone's house. Even if burning down someone's house isn't the same as killing them. Basically.
Perhaps this is because the plants may be a home for animals?
A healer told me that when she was meditating in the mountains, one of the rock spirits started to communicate with them. She couldn't believe it was happening at first, but she said it was very clear that it was real. After that, she completely changed her perception of what was alive and what wasn't.
Spirits that live in trees, springs, etc., are one thing; claiming that trees, springs, etc., are sentient is quite another thing.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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clyde wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:05 pmSome have suggested that living organisms that have craving/desire are subject to rebirth. But if it’s simply craving/desire, all living organisms demonstrate craving/desire by moving towards beneficial objects. And if it’s all three types of craving/desire and so includes craving for non-existence, I don’t know that there is any living organism other than human beings that meets this criteria.
what does “craving for non-existence” mean?
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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Desiring annihilation. It is mentioned as explicitly wrong view in the Pali Canon, and probably elsewhere.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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According to the suttas there are three types of craving/desire (tanha): kama-tanha (sensuality), bhava-tanha (becoming/existence), and vibhava-tanha (non-becoming/non-existence). Of course, no matter - all tanhas are to be abandoned.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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DNS wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:51 pm So according to Buddhism for the living things on earth, we could say humans and all animals that possess the five aggregates, especially consciousness, i.e., some level or degree of self-awareness (as most likely being the determinate factor).
That would seem (from our perspective) to include all vertebrate animals, but eliminate all non-vertebrate animals, unless one believes that consciousness/self-awareness is possible without at least a rudimentary central brain.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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The problem with threads like this is that you cannot answer the question, "Is X sentient?" without first defining what YOU mean by sentient. The traditional Buddhist definition includes the six realms, and I see no reason not to go with that definition.

I can see some justification for including plants, although that means watering down the meaning considerably. Although, as has been pointed out, some creatures that, biologically speaking, are animals have awareness that is probably not much different from that of plants. So although I don't consider plants to be sentient, and Buddhism traditionally didn't, I can accept it as a reasonable-ish extension of the meaning.

When people start talking about rocks being sentient, I think that the term has become totally meaningless. Plants can at least respond to their environment. Rocks just sit there. There is no process. There is no response. There is no evidence for anything approaching awareness. If that is how someone defines sentience, and if works for them, well, good for them. But they have made communication on the subject impossible.

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Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by DNS »

I agree with Kathy.

A clear demarcation line exists with the six realms and it specifically lists animals, but not plants, minerals, and certainly not rocks.

We can look up any species and see if it falls into the Animal Kingdom and then assume that yes, they get reborn. For example, venus flytrap = no (plant kingdom). Sponge = yes (animal kingdom). And when you look up more info about the species, apparently some do procreate with sperm and eggs and all.

Although, admittedly, there does seem to be some gray areas between plant-animal life.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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Yes, the Six Realms is a good demarcation and that includes the Animal Realm.

What remains unclear is how the Buddha defined/understood the term “animal”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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I agree that it seems far-fetched that rocks could be sentient, but I just found this article from ananda that said Paramahansa Yogananda had talked about being a diamond in a past life. I know this is a Buddhist website, but I feel that this perspective could at least be food for thought: https://www.ananda.org/ask/from-mineral ... carnation/
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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In regard to humans and animals, it's easy to see who the mindstream represents when we see a human, dog, or cow. But if plants had a mindsteam, where would it be represented? Would it be the roots, stems, leaves, branches, flowers, fruits, or the seeds? Or would there be multiple mindstreams in each plant?

What do the Jains say? (If anyone knows.) Or other religions or paths that believe plants transmigrate in samsara?
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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cjdevries wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:07 am I agree that it seems far-fetched that rocks could be sentient...
likewise, with salt, water, fat, amino acids, proteins, as far as that goes. Curiously, that’s all that brains are composed of (salt is a type of rock, isn’t it? It’s a mineral).
So, can one say that a brain is required for sentience, yet argue that nothing the brain is composed of is capable of sentience?
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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"Everything is a product of the mind."
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Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by Malcolm »

cjdevries wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:07 am I agree that it seems far-fetched that rocks could be sentient, but I just found this article from ananda that said Paramahansa Yogananda had talked about being a diamond in a past life. I know this is a Buddhist website, but I feel that this perspective could at least be food for thought: https://www.ananda.org/ask/from-mineral ... carnation/
Hindus have a different idea about reincarnation.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by haha »

clyde wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:18 pm
DNS wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:51 pm So according to Buddhism for the living things on earth, we could say humans and all animals that possess the five aggregates, especially consciousness, i.e., some level or degree of self-awareness (as most likely being the determinate factor).
That would seem (from our perspective) to include all vertebrate animals, but eliminate all non-vertebrate animals, unless one believes that consciousness/self-awareness is possible without at least a rudimentary central brain.
Yes, consciousness is possible without functioning of brain and heart. In India, it is known as Jadasamadhi in yogic tradition (a kind of hibernation); it is the method of forcefully and quickly attaining the Samadhi; it is just the first step but many have interpreted as if it is final. Its interpretation may differ that depends on from which source one has got the information. If one has read the life of Indian mahasiddhas, one will find that at least some had gone through this process.


DNS wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:31 am In regard to humans and animals, it's easy to see who the mindstream represents when we see a human, dog, or cow. But if plants had a mindsteam, where would it be represented? Would it be the roots, stems, leaves, branches, flowers, fruits, or the seeds? Or would there be multiple mindstreams in each plant?

What do the Jains say? (If anyone knows.) Or other religions or paths that believe plants transmigrate in samsara?
To understand it from Jain perspective, first one should know the categorization of Jiva: through indriya or prana. How they define it. What sentient and non-sentient are. And so on.
A plant life can have one or more souls in a single body and, depending upon this, plant life is further divided into the following two sub-categories:

a) Pratyek Vanaspatikaya: Pratyek means one. Such plant life has one soul in one body. Therefore, they are called Pratyek vanaspatikaya. Trees, plants, bushes, stem, branches, leaves, and seeds, etc. are all examples of pratyek vanaspatikayajiva.

b) Sadharan Vanaspatikaya: Sadharan means common. In such plant life many souls occupy the same body making this type of plant life multi-organic. Therefore, such plant life is called sadharan vanaspatikaya. Such plant lives have an infinite number of souls in one body are called “Anantkaya”. Roots such as potatoes, carrots, onions, garlic, beats, etc. belong to this category.

Here is the link for Jainism Simplified of University of Michigan. It is very clear and precise.
http://umich.edu/~umjains/jainismsimpli ... ter03.html

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Re: rebirth and veganism

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haha wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:38 am To understand it from Jain perspective, first one should know the categorization of Jiva: through indriya or prana. How they define it. What sentient and non-sentient are. And so on.
A plant life can have one or more souls in a single body and, depending upon this, plant life is further divided into the following two sub-categories:

a) Pratyek Vanaspatikaya: Pratyek means one. Such plant life has one soul in one body. Therefore, they are called Pratyek vanaspatikaya. Trees, plants, bushes, stem, branches, leaves, and seeds, etc. are all examples of pratyek vanaspatikayajiva.

b) Sadharan Vanaspatikaya: Sadharan means common. In such plant life many souls occupy the same body making this type of plant life multi-organic. Therefore, such plant life is called sadharan vanaspatikaya. Such plant lives have an infinite number of souls in one body are called “Anantkaya”. Roots such as potatoes, carrots, onions, garlic, beats, etc. belong to this category.
Interesting, thanks. That's what I thought, that some plants must have multiple souls (according to Jainism), similar to the Hindu doctrine. After all, some plants are quite large, with multiple branches, stems, leaves, etc.

If there were only one soul for each plant, how would the rest of the plant still have jiva when part of it is cut off and killed or eaten? The multiple souls probably covers some of this discrepancy, but not all, as they still state that some plants have only one soul.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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DNS wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:31 am
haha wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:38 am To understand it from Jain perspective, first one should know the categorization of Jiva: through indriya or prana. How they define it. What sentient and non-sentient are. And so on.
A plant life can have one or more souls in a single body and, depending upon this, plant life is further divided into the following two sub-categories:

a) Pratyek Vanaspatikaya: Pratyek means one. Such plant life has one soul in one body. Therefore, they are called Pratyek vanaspatikaya. Trees, plants, bushes, stem, branches, leaves, and seeds, etc. are all examples of pratyek vanaspatikayajiva.

b) Sadharan Vanaspatikaya: Sadharan means common. In such plant life many souls occupy the same body making this type of plant life multi-organic. Therefore, such plant life is called sadharan vanaspatikaya. Such plant lives have an infinite number of souls in one body are called “Anantkaya”. Roots such as potatoes, carrots, onions, garlic, beats, etc. belong to this category.
Interesting, thanks. That's what I thought, that some plants must have multiple souls (according to Jainism), similar to the Hindu doctrine. After all, some plants are quite large, with multiple branches, stems, leaves, etc.

If there were only one soul for each plant, how would the rest of the plant still have jiva when part of it is cut off and killed or eaten? The multiple souls probably covers some of this discrepancy, but not all, as they still state that some plants have only one soul.
It could be just cutting off a figure, hand, leg, eyes, etc. but that person can be still alive. I do not know and I do not have enough clarity on this topic; just gathering information for personal understanding. There is a story that Mahavira entered into the trance and reading the uprooted plant’s will of living. The plants have the will of living??? It is very complicated and I do not have enough understanding of their doctrine.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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haha wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:19 am It could be just cutting off a figure, hand, leg, eyes, etc. but that person can be still alive. I do not know and I do not have enough clarity on this topic; just gathering information for personal understanding. There is a story that Mahavira entered into the trance and reading the uprooted plant’s will of living. The plants have the will of living??? It is very complicated and I do not have enough understanding of their doctrine.
I mean what if a plant has one soul but someone cuts off a branch or sapling and this sapling continues to live, to have life force (jiva)? Since there was only one soul in that plant, the sapling wouldn't have another soul, but yet it has jiva. It could be a glitch or mistake in the Jain rebirth and soul teaching.
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Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by Giovanni »

Surely the glitch in Jain teaching is that it is not Buddhadharma? 😉
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Re: rebirth and veganism

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:21 pm Perhaps this is because the plants may be a home for animals?
Well, yeah, you're not supposed to kill animals also. But another reason is that the plants are thought to be sort of related to the abodes of other beings at times, like perhaps a terrestrial yaksha or whatever.
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