rebirth and veganism

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

rebirth and veganism

Post by clyde »

This is a sincere question but touches on two sensitive topics: rebirth and veganism.

What living organisms are reborn after death? Or if it’s simpler to answer, what living organisms aren’t reborn after death?

Most Buddhists would answer “human beings” and more broadly “sentient beings” or “animals”. But there is scientific controversy about sentience and whether plants have sentience; so are plants reborn? And there is scientific controversy whether single-celled organisms which are neither plant nor animal are sentient; so are single-celled organisms reborn? And regarding animals, do they need to have a nervous system to be reborn?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:14 pm This is a sincere question but touches on two sensitive topics: rebirth and veganism.

What living organisms are reborn after death? Or if it’s simpler to answer, what living organisms aren’t reborn after death?

Most Buddhists would answer “human beings” and more broadly “sentient beings” or “animals”. But there is scientific controversy about sentience and whether plants have sentience; so are plants reborn? And there is scientific controversy whether single-celled organisms which are neither plant nor animal are sentient; so are single-celled organisms reborn? And regarding animals, do they need to have a nervous system to be reborn?
The classical Indian Buddhist position is that plants are not considered sentient.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 5261
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by DNS »

Sentient beings, as noted by Malcolm. So this includes humans and all animals, all the way down to insects, marine animals, shrimp, jelly fish, etc.

It does not include plants, according to Buddhism. So a vegan is not eating any sentient being, according to Buddhism.

The Jains believe the plant kingdom species do have a soul and reincarnate. They are vegetarian anyway, because well, they have to eat something. They justify it as "lesser" violence to killing and eating an animal with more senses and sense receptors.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 5261
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by DNS »

It's an interesting topic, because there are some species who don't appear fully plant or fully animal, almost as if being somewhere in between. For example, jelly fish have no brains but are animals (marine animals). Venus flytraps are plants but eat meat (insects).
User avatar
KathyLauren
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: East Coast of Canada
Contact:

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by KathyLauren »

In Buddhist teachings, sentient beings, which consist of gods, demi-gods, humans, animals, hungry ghosts, and hell beings, are sentient and get reborn.

In scientific literature, animals (including humans) are sentient.

The only claims of sentience in plants come from popular culture, unsupported by Buddhism or science, although claims of such support are common. Which is not to say that such claims are wrong, but it is hard to justify them.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
cjdevries
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:06 pm

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by cjdevries »

I was taught by my teacher that plants and trees have individual spirits.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche

"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
GrapeLover
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by GrapeLover »

cjdevries wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:48 pm I was taught by my teacher that plants and trees have individual spirits.
I would note that it is canonical that spirits inhabit plants and trees and may be intimately associated with them, but strictly speaking they are distinct from the plants and can move into different ones if they like. Not sure if it’s possible that your teacher referred to this

I also remember reading about some odd type of hell birth in a lamrim text where you think you are an inanimate object but actually you are a ‘spirit’ or mind-made body ‘inside’ an inanimate object
User avatar
Shotenzenjin
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:23 pm

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by Shotenzenjin »

If both humans and s mite in a dog's ass are sentient

What is sentience?
Last edited by Shotenzenjin on Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Generation's shall pass, our determination shall grow, at the foot of Mount Fuji
Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

Hokekko of true Buddhism https://nstny.org

Introduction to Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VKyEQ_cxK9
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:15 pm If booth humans and s mite in a dog's ass are sentient

What is sentience?
Perception of subject and object, aversion and attachment, etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by clyde »

I am not a scientist, but my understanding is:
  • some biologists (albeit a small minority) hold that plants have a rudimentary form of consciousness and are sentient;
  • there are forms of life that are neither plant nor animal, such as single-celled organisms;
  • there are some things(?) which are neither living nor nonliving (!) such as viruses;
  • there are some animals that lack a nervous system such as sponges (hydra and jellyfish have a nervous system, but no brain).
So, what is required for a living organism to be subject to rebirth?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by Budai »

Can someone point me directly to the Buddha's words on this subject, from a Sutra or Sutta? I would be interested. :thumbsup:
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9438
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

clyde wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:14 pm What living organisms are reborn after death? Or if it’s simpler to answer, what living organisms aren’t reborn after death?
I realize that the focus of your question sort of has to do with “what counts” in the scheme of things as far as living organisms go.
But it should be mentioned that the “living organism” isn’t reborn. Strictly speaking, although we talk about beings taking rebirth from one life to the next, what we really should say is that the causes that result in who or what you “are” in this life, meaning your actions of body, speech, and mind, will result in a similar result arising in a next life.
It’s like, if you spill water on the floor today, the floor is wet today. Tomorrow, if the cause (the water on the floor) is still there, then it becomes the cause for the floor to be wet tomorrow as well.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
haha
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by haha »

clyde wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:45 pm So, what is required for a living organism to be subject to rebirth?
It could be the trisna/craving (i.e. three types).
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by Budai »

If plants are clearly alive why aren't they considered sentient? :stirthepot:

Are your thoughts sentient? What makes your thoughts different from plants?
:rolling:
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9438
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:05 am If plants are clearly alive why aren't they considered sentient?
Are your thoughts sentient? What makes your thoughts different from plants?
The teachings the Buddha gave do not apply to plants.
Therefore, the question one ought to ask isn’t,
“Are plants sentient beings”, but rather,
“Why don’t the Buddha’s teachings apply to plants?”
and in order to answer that, you can’t just fall into universal speculations. You have to look at the sutras themselves.
Most of the Buddha’s teachings were given as answers to questions he was asked, and revolve around the human experience, our senses, our mental formations, and so on.

It might just as well be the case that somewhere a ‘plant Buddha’ appears to plants and directs them. Maybe somewhere plants ask a plant-Buddha questions. But that’s just idle speculation and in any case would be something that we would have no awareness of, and which would not contribute to our own liberation even if we had.

Aside from some plants being invasive species or vines ‘choking’ other plants and so on, or trees getting diseases, or being eaten by insects or other animals, there is nothing that we can regard as ‘karmic’ activity or suffering as we know it, by plants themselves. It may be that plants have their own version of karmic activity. A plant goes through the cycle of birth, old age, sickness, and death. But does it mentally “experience” these? Does it suffer mental stress from these? If not, then there is no duhkha. if there is no dukkha (dissatisfaction, discontent) then there is no suffering. If there is no suffering, then no need for refuge from suffering.

In terms of intention, action, fruition, mental impressions, distorted perceptions, and so on, the basis for karmic fruition in the six realms, this is not evident in plant life. If a life form isn’t producing karma that binds one to samsara, then there is no need for liberation.

We do have botanical descriptions and categories that we refer to as “stress” for plants, that occur when the growing conditions are not good. But whether plants have a mental experience or not, that’s a different issue. That’s the issue that the Buddha would be focused on. If plants aren’t perpetuating samsaric rebirth, then as far as a Buddha is concerned, there’s nothing in plants that needs to be liberated.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by ThreeVows »

GrapeLover wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 pm
cjdevries wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:48 pm I was taught by my teacher that plants and trees have individual spirits.
I would note that it is canonical that spirits inhabit plants and trees and may be intimately associated with them, but strictly speaking they are distinct from the plants and can move into different ones if they like. Not sure if it’s possible that your teacher referred to this

I also remember reading about some odd type of hell birth in a lamrim text where you think you are an inanimate object but actually you are a ‘spirit’ or mind-made body ‘inside’ an inanimate object
Yeah, I think this is generally the standard interpretation, that basically beings can inhabit plants, rocks, etc, as a sort of abode, but the abode is not itself necessarily in-and-of-itself sentient. And so for example in monastic precepts, one should not carelessly cut plants, uproot them, etc, any more than someone should perhaps burn down someone's house. Even if burning down someone's house isn't the same as killing them. Basically.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
cjdevries
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:06 pm

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by cjdevries »

I believe that in some forms of Taoism, they accept plants as part of the reincarnation cycle. I have heard teachers say that many of us had past lives as plants and even minerals. I know of highly developed healers who have directly communicated with mineral spirits.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche

"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Perhaps plants don't or ignorance, or the capability to become enlightened... who knows!

I'm willing to bet that modern science and buddhism don't have the same definitions of sentience and consciousness. If we're using the word, what are the assumptions behind it?
cjdevries wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:22 pm I believe that in some forms of Taoism, they accept plants as part of the reincarnation cycle. I have heard teachers say that many of us had past lives as plants and even minerals. I know of highly developed healers who have directly communicated with mineral spirits.
That's very interesting. I know of shamans who practice with plant spirits in the amazon, but I've never heard of minerals. Every now and then you hear of great bodhisattvas inhabiting mountains... Do you mean crystals or rock?
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:25 pm
Yeah, I think this is generally the standard interpretation, that basically beings can inhabit plants, rocks, etc, as a sort of abode, but the abode is not itself necessarily in-and-of-itself sentient. And so for example in monastic precepts, one should not carelessly cut plants, uproot them, etc, any more than someone should perhaps burn down someone's house. Even if burning down someone's house isn't the same as killing them. Basically.
Perhaps this is because the plants may be a home for animals?
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by clyde »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:55 am But it should be mentioned that the “living organism” isn’t reborn.
My question is not about what gets reborn, but what attributes, features or qualities must a living organism have to be subject to rebirth.

Some have suggested that living organisms that have a “mental experience” are subject to rebirth. But does a “mental experience” include all living creatures with a nervous system, even hydras and jellyfish? And does it exclude those without a nervous system, even though such living organisms react to their environment, including sponges and plants?

Some have suggested that living organisms that have craving/desire are subject to rebirth. But if it’s simply craving/desire, all living organisms demonstrate craving/desire by moving towards beneficial objects. And if it’s all three types of craving/desire and so includes craving for non-existence, I don’t know that there is any living organism other than human beings that meets this criteria.

What is determinate?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
cjdevries
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:06 pm

Re: rebirth and veganism

Post by cjdevries »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:21 pm Perhaps plants don't or ignorance, or the capability to become enlightened... who knows!

I'm willing to bet that modern science and buddhism don't have the same definitions of sentience and consciousness. If we're using the word, what are the assumptions behind it?
cjdevries wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:22 pm I believe that in some forms of Taoism, they accept plants as part of the reincarnation cycle. I have heard teachers say that many of us had past lives as plants and even minerals. I know of highly developed healers who have directly communicated with mineral spirits.
That's very interesting. I know of shamans who practice with plant spirits in the amazon, but I've never heard of minerals. Every now and then you hear of great bodhisattvas inhabiting mountains... Do you mean crystals or rock?
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:25 pm
Yeah, I think this is generally the standard interpretation, that basically beings can inhabit plants, rocks, etc, as a sort of abode, but the abode is not itself necessarily in-and-of-itself sentient. And so for example in monastic precepts, one should not carelessly cut plants, uproot them, etc, any more than someone should perhaps burn down someone's house. Even if burning down someone's house isn't the same as killing them. Basically.
Perhaps this is because the plants may be a home for animals?
A healer told me that when she was meditating in the mountains, one of the rock spirits started to communicate with them. She couldn't believe it was happening at first, but she said it was very clear that it was real. After that, she completely changed her perception of what was alive and what wasn't.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche

"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”