Arhats and Bodhisattvas

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

avatamsaka3 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:45 pm
So we have to think, is "Buddha" merely a title of prestige given to someone who rules over the Dharma, or a stage of Spiritual Awakening?
The second one, which makes the first appropriate.

And what exactly is a Buddha?
Sammāsambuddhasutta

22.58. The Perfectly Enlightened One

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, is called a Perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, is called one liberated by wisdom.

“The Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, through its fading away and cessation, is called a Perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, through its fading away and cessation, is called one liberated by wisdom.

“Therein, bhikkhus, what is the distinction, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom?”

“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would clear up the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it.”

“Then listen and attend closely, bhikkhus, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“The Tathagata, bhikkhus, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, is the originator of the path unarisen before, the producer of the path unproduced before, the declarer of the path undeclared before. He is the knower of the path, the discoverer of the path, the one skilled in the path. And his disciples now dwell following that path and become possessed of it afterwards.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.58/en/bodhi
:anjali:
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:53 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:47 pm It's sometimes said that an arhat corresponds to an 8th Bhumi Bodhisattva, or that an arhat can enter the Mahayana and basically they start at the 8th Bhumi or will very quickly get there, or similar things.
No, this is a mistaken view. If this were the case, the three incalculable eons necessary for buddhahood in sūtrayāna could bypassed by attaining arhatship.

But it does not work like that. First, the emptiness realized by arhats is only the emptiness of the person, not of phenomena, and not of the emptiness of the four extremes.

Gorampa Sonam Senge addresses all these issues in his Differentiation of Views. You can look there.
I thought those 3 eons were just for the Buddha. not for his disciples.

because what is the logic .. a practical person 3 eons, reached enlightenment and when he goes to teach he speaks to the disciples that true enlightenment only after eons of practice.

sorry .. maybe i'm mixing teachings from Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism and that may have confused me.

:namaste:
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avatamsaka3
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by avatamsaka3 »

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom.”
Yes, this is a distinction based on activity. The Pali sources also talk about the distinction in terms of levels of insight into dependent origination, knowledge range, and powers (if I remember correctly). I'm wondering about the distinction from the point of view of Buddha Nature in the Mahayana.
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Aemilius
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by Aemilius »

Mahāsāṃghika supramundane Buddha

In the early Buddhist schools, the Mahāsāṃghika branch regarded the buddhas as being characterized primarily by their supramundane nature. The Mahāsāṃghikas advocated the transcendental and supramundane nature of the buddhas and bodhisattvas, and the fallibility of arhats. Of the 48 special theses attributed by the Samayabhedoparacanacakra to the Mahāsāṃghika Ekavyāvahārika, Lokottaravāda, and the Kukkuṭika, 20 points concern the supramundane nature of buddhas and bodhisattvas. According to the Samayabhedoparacanacakra, these four groups held that the Buddha is able to know all dharmas in a single moment of the mind. Yao Zhihua writes:

In their view, the Buddha is equipped with the following supernatural qualities: transcendence (lokottara), lack of defilements, all of his utterances preaching his teaching, expounding all his teachings in a single utterance, all of his sayings being true, his physical body being limitless, his power (prabhāva) being limitless, the length of his life being limitless, never tiring of enlightening sentient beings and awakening pure faith in them, having no sleep or dreams, no pause in answering a question, and always in meditation (samādhi).

A doctrine ascribed to the Mahāsāṃghikas is, "The power of the tathāgatas is unlimited, and the life of the buddhas is unlimited." According to Guang Xing, two main aspects of the Buddha can be seen in Mahāsāṃghika teachings: the true Buddha who is omniscient and omnipotent, and the manifested forms through which he liberates sentient beings through skillful means. For the Mahāsaṃghikas, the historical Gautama Buddha was one of these transformation bodies (Skt. nirmāṇakāya), while the essential real Buddha is equated with the Dharmakāya.

As in Mahāyāna traditions, the Mahāsāṃghikas held the doctrine of the existence of many contemporaneous buddhas throughout the ten directions. In the Mahāsāṃghika Lokānuvartana Sūtra, it is stated, "The Buddha knows all the dharmas of the countless buddhas of the ten directions." It is also stated, "All buddhas have one body, the body of the Dharma." The concept of many bodhisattvas simultaneously working toward buddhahood is also found among the Mahāsāṃghika tradition, and further evidence of this is given in the Samayabhedoparacanacakra, which describes the doctrines of the Mahāsāṃghikas.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by Aemilius »

avatamsaka3 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:17 am
“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom.”
Yes, this is a distinction based on activity. The Pali sources also talk about the distinction in terms of levels of insight into dependent origination, knowledge range, and powers (if I remember correctly). I'm wondering about the distinction from the point of view of Buddha Nature in the Mahayana.
There is also a distinction in terms of Buddha's body endowed with 32 major and 108 minor marks, which Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas do not have. This is connected to a distinction in terms of the collection merit or punya-sambhara, which is a cause for the perfect body of a Buddha.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
avatamsaka3
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by avatamsaka3 »

For the Mahāsaṃghikas, the historical Gautama Buddha was one of these transformation bodies (Skt. nirmāṇakāya), while the essential real Buddha is equated with the Dharmakāya.
And what is the dharmakāya?
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LastLegend
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by LastLegend »

avatamsaka3 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:27 pm
For the Mahāsaṃghikas, the historical Gautama Buddha was one of these transformation bodies (Skt. nirmāṇakāya), while the essential real Buddha is equated with the Dharmakāya.
And what is the dharmakāya?
It’s karma. :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by LastLegend »

avatamsaka3 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:45 pm
So we have to think, is "Buddha" merely a title of prestige given to someone who rules over the Dharma, or a stage of Spiritual Awakening?
The second one, which makes the first appropriate.

And what exactly is a Buddha?
Before any craziness whether fine and subtle as dust motes arises in mind that’s Buddha.
It’s eye blinking.
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Aemilius
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Re: Arhats and Bodhisattvas

Post by Aemilius »

avatamsaka3 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:27 pm
For the Mahāsaṃghikas, the historical Gautama Buddha was one of these transformation bodies (Skt. nirmāṇakāya), while the essential real Buddha is equated with the Dharmakāya.
And what is the dharmakāya?
The Abhisamaya-Alankara of Maitreya (The Ornament of Clear Realization) gives a concise explanation in Topic VIII Dharmakaya:
ten strengths, dasa bala
four fearlessnesses, catur-vaisharadya
four analytical knowledges, catur-pratisamvid
three unguardednesses, or ways of having nothing to hide, try-arakshana
three non-possessions
four things pure in every aspect
four knowledges of others' intent, catuh-pranidhijñana
five eyes, pañca cakshus
six supernatural perceptions, shad-abhijña
ten powers, dasha-vashitah
three miracles, tri-pratiharaya
six rememberings, shad-anusmriti
eighteen unassociated qualities, avenikadharmas
which are: six unassociated activities
six unassociated realizations
three unassociated words
three unassociated wisdoms
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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