This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

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joshua
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This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by joshua »

I came upon this quote I found quite odd, and wanted some second opinions. I have read almost nothing of Master Hsuan Hua's dharma, however I know he is very well respected and regarded.
On the body of one single animal are a hundred thousand, in fact, several million little organisms. These organisms are fragments of what was once an animal. The soul of a human being at death may split up to become many animals. One person can become about ten animals. That's why animals are so stupid. The soul of an animal can split up and become, in its smallest division, an organism or plant. The feelings which plants have, then, are what separated from the animal's soul when it split up at death.
Although the life force of a large number of plants may appear sizable, it is not as great as that of a single animal or a single mouthful of meat. Take, for example, rice: tens of billions of grains of rice do not contain as much life force as a single piece of meat. If you open your Five Eyes you can know this at a glance. If you haven't opened you eyes, no matter how one tries to explain it to you, you won't understand. No matter how it's explained, you won't believe it, because you haven't been a plant!
Another example is the mosquitos. The millions of mosquitos on this mountain may simply be the soul of one person who has been transformed into all those bugs. It is not the case that a single human soul turns into a single mosquito. One person can turn into countless numbers of mosquitos.
At death the nature changes, the soul scatters, and its smallest fragments become plants. Thus, there is a difference between eating plants and eating animals. What is more, plants have very short life-spans. The grass, for example, is born in the spring and dies within months. Animals live a long time. If you don't kill them, they will live for many years. Rice, regardless of condition, will only live a short time. And so, if you really look into it, there are many factors to consider, and even science hasn't got it all straight.
Responsible Living: Explorations in Applied Buddhist Ethics - Animals, Environment, GMOs, Digital Media by Ron Epstein; Footnote 7 of Chapter 2; Buddha Root Farm: Dharma talks delivered by the Venerable Tripitika Master Hsuan Hua during a Buddha Recitation Session on Buddha Root Farm on the Smith River near Reedsport, Oregon, August, 1975. Buddhist Text Translation Society, 1976, p. 64

What do you all make of this? On the surface, this is all sorts of wrong view and nonsense. What is the Master saying here? I'm having trouble believing one should be taking these words at face value.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

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This has been brought up before, IIRC the tentative conclusions was that this was his own idea. No real support of scripture, commentary etc., and is in fact contrary the most of the basic teachings of the Mahayana.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... to#p409164

There's one of the old threads, but I think we've had a few.
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joshua
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by joshua »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:34 am This has been brought up before, IIRC the tentative conclusions was that this was his own idea. No real support of scripture, commentary etc., and is in fact contrary the most of the basic teachings of the Mahayana.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... to#p409164

There's one of the old threads, but I think we've had a few.
Thanks for letting me know! I'm sorry to dig up old news, but I didn't know this had been discussed before. I will certainly look through that thread, but from a quick glance it raises many more questions for me than it answers.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

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joshua wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:52 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:34 am This has been brought up before, IIRC the tentative conclusions was that this was his own idea. No real support of scripture, commentary etc., and is in fact contrary the most of the basic teachings of the Mahayana.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... to#p409164

There's one of the old threads, but I think we've had a few.
Thanks for letting me know! I'm sorry to dig up old news, but I didn't know this had been discussed before. I will certainly look through that thread, but from a quick glance it raises many more questions for me than it answers.
Well, everyone has to make their own conclusions. We've had like 10 threads on this in the time I've used DW, you could say it's been somewhat popular.

At the least, it's a very unorthodox teaching...which contradicts Buddhist doctrine. Doesn't make it "wrong" outright I suppose, but I've never seen anything in Buddhist teaching that would justify anything like this, and I have never seen any sort of citation regarding it. In short, I personally think it's just Venerable's own idea, and does not make any sense. YMMV.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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joshua
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by joshua »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:03 am
joshua wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:52 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:34 am This has been brought up before, IIRC the tentative conclusions was that this was his own idea. No real support of scripture, commentary etc., and is in fact contrary the most of the basic teachings of the Mahayana.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... to#p409164

There's one of the old threads, but I think we've had a few.
Thanks for letting me know! I'm sorry to dig up old news, but I didn't know this had been discussed before. I will certainly look through that thread, but from a quick glance it raises many more questions for me than it answers.
Well, everyone has to make their own conclusions. We've had like 10 threads on this in the time I've used DW, you could say it's been somewhat popular.

At the least, it's a very unorthodox teaching...which contradicts Buddhist doctrine. Doesn't make it "wrong" outright I suppose, but I've never seen anything in Buddhist teaching that would justify anything like this, and I have never seen any sort of citation regarding it. In short, I personally think it's just Venerable's own idea, and does not make any sense. YMMV.
Thank you again. I will certainly reflect on this and decide how much(if any) of the Venerable's teachings I should pursue going forward. I will also spend some time browsing the other threads on this matter. They should not be too hard to find, and as I said it was second opinions I was seeking in the first place. If they've been given in other threads, there's not much need for them here as well. You're welcome to close this if you like.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

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joshua wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:26 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:03 am
joshua wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:52 am

Thanks for letting me know! I'm sorry to dig up old news, but I didn't know this had been discussed before. I will certainly look through that thread, but from a quick glance it raises many more questions for me than it answers.
Well, everyone has to make their own conclusions. We've had like 10 threads on this in the time I've used DW, you could say it's been somewhat popular.

At the least, it's a very unorthodox teaching...which contradicts Buddhist doctrine. Doesn't make it "wrong" outright I suppose, but I've never seen anything in Buddhist teaching that would justify anything like this, and I have never seen any sort of citation regarding it. In short, I personally think it's just Venerable's own idea, and does not make any sense. YMMV.
Thank you again. I will certainly reflect on this and decide how much(if any) of the Venerable's teachings I should pursue going forward. I will also spend some time browsing the other threads on this matter. They should not be too hard to find, and as I said it was second opinions I was seeking in the first place. If they've been given in other threads, there's not much need for them here as well. You're welcome to close this if you like.
it's fine, I wasn't trying to complain about the subject matter, just make you aware of the previous debates on DW about this over the years. It's a perfectly valid question, I'm just guessing that there will not be any new explanation of it, though I could be wrong.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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SilenceMonkey
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by SilenceMonkey »

joshua wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:28 am ...
So the master had a few idiosyncratic views. The reason to listen to his teachings is not for these things, it is because he was one of the greatest Chan masters of the past generation. Don't worry about this stuff, he had the Buddha mind.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by Norden »

Most enlightened teachers have some contradictory in their teaching or realization. Maybe because it's based on (their) reality rather than books.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by muni »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:49 am It's hard to explain.

Imagine Avalokakitesvara being all pervading as many say. Avalokakitesvara can be in millions of places at once. He is the Dalai Lama, He is in the Deity, and He is also incarnated in multiple forms throughout the Universes. You may be too.

Spiritual Master Hua is saying that animals go through similar expansions often, but with one person's craving being multiplied into the craving of say, ten dogs, it becomes less controllable and some may call animals "stupid" for this reason.

The question of the soul is a hard one to explain. I would stay with Anatta to the best of your ability to try to understand it.

Hope this helps.
:namaste:
I remember H H Dalai Lama saying many like me are but there can be only one Dalai Lama. I think it is not possible to understand this by idea of a self, a person. Yes, Anatta.
Chenrezig / Avalokitesvara appears in multiple ways to benefit.
joshua
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by joshua »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:21 am
joshua wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:28 am ...
So the master had a few idiosyncratic views. The reason to listen to his teachings is not for these things, it is because he was one of the greatest Chan masters of the past generation. Don't worry about this stuff, he had the Buddha mind.
Norden wrote:Most enlightened teachers have some contradictory in their teaching or realization. Maybe because it's based on (their) reality rather than books.
Hmm, maybe it's because I'm so unenlightened, but I don't necessarily see this as some silly idiosyncrasy. I don't expect teachers to be perfect, or have the Buddha Mind, be enlightened, etc, but I absolutely do expect them not to contradict one of the most fundamental teachings about the Dharma. I don't think that's too high of a bar to set. Honestly, if I taught my 5 year old daughter about Buddhism she would know better than to say something this crazy. I started this thread because I wanted to give Master Hua the benefit of the doubt. I assumed this was some sort of skillfil means that I couldn't grasp fully, but it seems I was wrong. Which is totally fine and I'm not hung up on it or worried, there are plenty of other teachers out there.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Norden wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:45 am Most enlightened teachers have some contradictory in their teaching or realization. Maybe because it's based on (their) reality rather than books.
*citation needed
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ezza
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by ezza »

Could someone please elaborate on where the wrong view and nonsense from the quote stems from? I think I'm just having a brain fart right now haha

Master Hsuan Hua in this quote may also be referring to the concepts of the hun and po, or a Chinese/Daoist view as to what happens with the soul in reincarnation/an afterlife
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by SilenceMonkey »

ezza wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:02 pm Could someone please elaborate on where the wrong view and nonsense from the quote stems from? I think I'm just having a brain fart right now haha

Master Hsuan Hua in this quote may also be referring to the concepts of the hun and po, or a Chinese/Daoist view as to what happens with the soul in reincarnation/an afterlife
The splitting of the soul after death does sound like it comes from the daoist view of hun and po. I find it an interesting perspective actually on the teaching of interdependence, as well as the mind (he says "soul") not being just one amorphous thing, but many.

Maybe daoists also believe that beings are reincarnated as plants... who knows where that came from.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by Malcolm »

joshua wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:28 am

What do you all make of this? On the surface, this is all sorts of wrong view and nonsense. What is the Master saying here? I'm having trouble believing one should be taking these words at face value.
It has been discussed here at quite some length. It is a wrong view, all the way down.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by ShantiM »

In my research, I’ve come across some sutra references that show single animal rebirth at once (500 humans become 500 horses then become 500 heaven gods later) and therefore refute the duplicity rebirth notion.

https://terebess.hu/english/Maharatnakuta.pdf
Maharatnakuta Sutra 38 Page 461
Good man, out of pity for the five hundred Bodhisattvas who were born as horses, and to enable them to be liberated from the plane of animals, the Tathagata accepted the invitation given by the brahmin, though he already knew that he would meet with bad treatment.

" Good man, at that time, the five hundred horses ate half of their wheat and gave the other half to the monks, and the large horse offered the Tathagata half of his wheat. For the large horse had explained the Dharma to the five hundred horses in a horse's voice; he had also taught them to repent their own misdeeds and to pay homage to the Buddha and the monks, and had said, 'You should offer half of your food to the monks. '

" After they had repented their misdeeds, the five hundred horses engendered pure faith in the Buddha and the Samgha. Three months later, the five hundred horses died and were reborn [as gods] in the Tu�ita Heaven. Soon after that, the five hundred gods descended from the heaven to the Buddha's dwelling-place to make offerings to the Tathagata. Right then, the Tathagata explained the Dharma to them. Having [again] heard the Dharma, they subdued their minds \vell. In their future lives, they will first achieve Pratyekabuddhahood, and then without fail will attain supreme enlightenment.
https://fpmt.org/wp-content/uploads/te ... 7lttr.pdf
The Golden Light Sutra Page 84
As night came to an end, those ten thousand fish died and were reborn equal among the gods of the Thirty-Three. The moment they were born, they had this thought: ‘By reason of what virtuous act have we been born among the gods of the Thirty-Three?’ The answer arose in their minds: ‘In Jambudvipa we were ten thousand fish. While we were in that animal state, Jalavahana the merchant’s son satisfied us with water and food. We were also given a Dharma teaching on the profound principle of dependent origination. He pronounced to us the name of Ratnashikhin, the Tathagata, the Arhat, the Fully Enlightened One. By reason of this cause and condition we were born among the gods. We should go to where Jalavahana the merchant’s son is and make offerings to him.’

“Then, those ten thousand sons of gods disappeared from among the gods of the ThirtyThree and went to the house of Jalavahana, the merchant’s son. At that time, while Jalavahana the merchant’s son lay sleeping in his bed, those sons of gods placed ten thousand pearl necklaces at his head. They placed ten thousand pearl necklaces at the soles of his feet. They placed ten thousand pearl necklaces on his right. They place ten thousand pearl necklaces on his left. They rained down a great shower of divine mandarava flowers and maha-mandarava flowers. They played divine cymbals and the sound of these cymbals woke up the people of Jambudvipa. Jalavahana the merchant’s son woke up too. Then those ten thousand sons of gods rose into the sky. Having rained down a shower of divine flowers in other regions of King Sureshvaraprabha’s realm, they went to Atavisambhava the forest pool and scattered there a great shower of divine maha-mandarava flowers. Becoming invisible in that spot, they soared back to their divine abodes. There they frolicked in the five sensual objects and enjoyed themselves. Delighting in what pleased them, they experienced great glory and good fortune.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by Injrabodi »

Occam's razor suggests an issue with translation, rather than an enlightened master speaking adharma.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by ShantiM »

Injrabodi wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:43 am Occam's razor suggests an issue with translation, rather than an enlightened master speaking adharma.
Unfortunately that’s not the case. I thought of the same thing that it was perhaps some mistranslation/misinterpretation, and did more searching and found several references of his teaching later on (after 1975) that consistently and explicitly stated this notion of duplicity in animal rebirth due to “soul split” and because of that animals are stupid. This has bothered me not understanding why someone who is considered “enlightened” would be preaching something like this, that would certainly induce wrong view and confusion to learners. If anyone might have an explanation for this?
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by Ayu »

Please be aware, this topic started more than 1 1/2 years ago - but I let it flow, because the necroing is worth it.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by Malcolm »

ShantiM wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:19 am If anyone might have an explanation for this?
Mistaken opinion. It's as simple as that.
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Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua

Post by dawn of peace »

ShantiM wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:19 am
Injrabodi wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:43 am Occam's razor suggests an issue with translation, rather than an enlightened master speaking adharma.
I thought of the same thing that it was perhaps some mistranslation/misinterpretation, and did more searching and found several references of his teaching later on (after 1975) that consistently and explicitly stated this notion of duplicity in animal rebirth due to “soul split” and because of that animals are stupid. This has bothered me not understanding why someone who is considered “enlightened” would be preaching something like this, that would certainly induce wrong view and confusion to learners. If anyone might have an explanation for this?
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I don't think that was mistranslate because I read some of the teaching of Master Hsuan Hau in Chinese before and I saw similar statement. I cannot find any scriptural source that support this teaching so far, but I know that the belief of "soul split" do appear in Chinese folk religion. it have been common for Chinese Buddhists to adopt Chinese folklore into Buddhism, especially, after the great persecution of Buddhism by the emperor Wu in tang dynasty, Buddhist teaching became marginalize, Chinese belief system mixed with Buddhism. that is not surprise that the masters who are considered "enlightened" to adopt local religious concepts to teach the dharma. Even The Buddha himself use a lot of Hindu terms to teach the dharma. My impression is that the dharma that taught by Master Hsuan Hua is very sinicized and de-hinduized.
Last edited by dawn of peace on Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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