Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Dharmalight889
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Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by Dharmalight889 »

Would someone be able to explain Yogacara philosophy to me and how it compares with Madhyamaka philosophy? From some of the information I have looked up, Yogacara seems to be a Buddhist psychology school studying consciousness. I have not found any information about the philosophical beliefs associated with Yogacara. The information I have gathered from other forums on this page lead me to believe that someone can not follow both Madhyamaka philosophy as well as Yogacara, although I am not sure if that is correct.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:20 amexplain Yogacara philosophy to me and how it compares with Madhyamaka philosophy?
There is no singular Yogacara philosophy but rather various texts considered by various people to be called Yogacara. Here are two introductory articles/essays:

What is Yogacara? by Charles Muller
What is and isn't Yogācāra by Dan Lusthaus

Wikipedia also gives a general overview: Yogachara.
From some of the information I have looked up, Yogacara seems to be a Buddhist psychology school studying consciousness.
Better view it as a Mahayana reformation of Abhidharma teachings.
I have not found any information about the philosophical beliefs associated with Yogacara.
Their most famous ones are the eight consciousnesses and the three natures.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Yogacara is very complex and subtle, and no single post or series of posts on a messageboard will do it justice. The links in the post above are a good place to start. The book below is also a great overview that is suitable for beginners:

"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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FromTheEarth
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by FromTheEarth »

Last year, Jay Garfield and the Sravasti Abbey recorded a lecture series on Yogacara's understanding of emptiness. You can easily find it on Youtube. I cannot think of a more accessible yet informative and philosophically interesting introduction than this.
Also, since both parties come from the Gelug background, there was some interesting discussion about the Y-M debate.
Dharmalight889
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by Dharmalight889 »

Thank you all for your replies. I have begun reading some of the links provide and will watch the YouTube video suggested. I'm wondering if someone could clarify another question I have. From what I have heard, all Tibetan schools follow Madhyamaka philosophy. While they study Yogacara, they consider themselves Madhyamaka. Where do East Asian schools stand on this issue? Do some schools follow Yogacara philosophy, or are they like the Tibetans and consider themselves mostly to be Madhyamaka?
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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:good:
FromTheEarth wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:39 am Last year, Jay Garfield and the Sravasti Abbey recorded a lecture series on Yogacara's understanding of emptiness. You can easily find it on Youtube. I cannot think of a more accessible yet informative and philosophically interesting introduction than this.
Also, since both parties come from the Gelug background, there was some interesting discussion about the Y-M debate.
Came here to say that. It was, to be fair, thirty hours long, but it was an excellent presentation.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:49 pm Thank you all for your replies. I have begun reading some of the links provide and will watch the YouTube video suggested. I'm wondering if someone could clarify another question I have. From what I have heard, all Tibetan schools follow Madhyamaka philosophy. While they study Yogacara, they consider themselves Madhyamaka. Where do East Asian schools stand on this issue? Do some schools follow Yogacara philosophy, or are they like the Tibetans and consider themselves mostly to be Madhyamaka?
Tibetan schools do not "consider themselves Madhyamaka" in some sense that Madhyamaka excludes Yogacara, they often see it as a "higher" part of a layered praxis that includes Yogacara, as you mention. I fear you might not be getting the real picture here, which is that Yogacara in Tibetan schools is part of a larger puzzle, not something they just dismiss because they somehow declare themselves Madhyamikas.
all Tibetan schools follow Madhyamaka philosophy.
What are you under the impression this means in practical terms? Buddhist schools have much more to their various setups than declared philosophical views of this sort. It seems pretty reductionist to define them in this way.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:04 pm
Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:49 pm Thank you all for your replies. I have begun reading some of the links provide and will watch the YouTube video suggested. I'm wondering if someone could clarify another question I have. From what I have heard, all Tibetan schools follow Madhyamaka philosophy. While they study Yogacara, they consider themselves Madhyamaka. Where do East Asian schools stand on this issue? Do some schools follow Yogacara philosophy, or are they like the Tibetans and consider themselves mostly to be Madhyamaka?
Tibetan schools do not "consider themselves Madhyamaka" in some sense that Madhyamaka excludes Yogacara, they often see it as a "higher" part of a layered praxis that includes Yogacara, as you mention. I fear you might not be getting the real picture here, which is that Yogacara in Tibetan schools is part of a larger puzzle, not something they just dismiss because they somehow declare themselves Madhyamikas.
all Tibetan schools follow Madhyamaka philosophy.
What are you under the impression this means in practical terms? Buddhist schools have much more to their various setups than declared philosophical views of this sort. It seems pretty reductionist to define them in this way.
I am most likely not understanding the philosophical backgrounds of the Tibetan schools entirely. I have just began studying the philosophical side of Tibetan Buddhism, therefore the wording of my questions may not be accurate. In one article I read on Lionsroar.com, it lead me to believe that there is a philosophical split between Madhyamaka and Yogacara and one could not follow both schools. I am assuming from some of the answers, this conclusion may have been wrong.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:04 pm
Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:49 pm Thank you all for your replies. I have begun reading some of the links provide and will watch the YouTube video suggested. I'm wondering if someone could clarify another question I have. From what I have heard, all Tibetan schools follow Madhyamaka philosophy. While they study Yogacara, they consider themselves Madhyamaka. Where do East Asian schools stand on this issue? Do some schools follow Yogacara philosophy, or are they like the Tibetans and consider themselves mostly to be Madhyamaka?
Tibetan schools do not "consider themselves Madhyamaka" in some sense that Madhyamaka excludes Yogacara, they often see it as a "higher" part of a layered praxis that includes Yogacara, as you mention. I fear you might not be getting the real picture here, which is that Yogacara in Tibetan schools is part of a larger puzzle, not something they just dismiss because they somehow declare themselves Madhyamikas.
all Tibetan schools follow Madhyamaka philosophy.
What are you under the impression this means in practical terms? Buddhist schools have much more to their various setups than declared philosophical views of this sort. It seems pretty reductionist to define them in this way.
I am most likely not understanding the philosophical backgrounds of the Tibetan schools entirely. I have just began studying the philosophical side of Tibetan Buddhism, therefore the wording of my questions may not be accurate. In one article I read on Lionsroar.com, it lead me to believe that there is a philosophical split between Madhyamaka and Yogacara and one could not follow both schools. I am assuming from some of the answers, this conclusion may have been wrong.
Just My two cents here:

The Tibetan schools incorporate both quite heavily in my experience, seeing Madhymaka as kind of the pinnacle in terms pf philosophy/tenets - which is what it is.

However, they all study Yogacara to one degree or another as far as I know, and depending on circumstances the study of it might be quite central to someone's practice at a given time. For instance, one of my teachers emphasized the need for meditators to be intimately familiar with Yogacara. We study Madhymaka too most definitely, but he felt that Yogacara understanding is so important to a meditator that it needs to be emphasized at a point.

So yes, I'd say the article is either inaccurate, or just glossed over how praxis actually works in the Tibetan schools. Simply declaring a certain philosophical tradition as definitive does not 1) mean other systems aren't used or 2) define anything other than a tenet system. If the article was written by someone who primarily studies tenet systems, there you go, they view things mainly through that lens. It does not make that lens particularly accurate, it means that tenets are that persons focus.

Meaning, there are whole huge chunks of Tibetan Buddhism that pretty much go beyond tenet system altogether. They can be said to accord with Madhyamaka etc., but seeing them that way exclusively is narrowing them in a way.

In fact, I think that to view Buddhist schools in general solely through their tenet systems is depriving yourself of their richness. The same would go for something like Soto Zen, where you can probably safely say Yogacara is held in high regard. Viewing Zen as " a Yogacara school" is simply missing a large part of what it is, which goes beyond a formal tenet system altogether.

Beyond that, philosophy is praxis in Buddhism, or it should be. I don't know what it would mean today to be a "follower of Yogacara"...there really is no such animal today I don't think. These philosophical schools are part of the Buddhist tradition and are meant to inform Buddhist practice and theory, not to be exclusive tenet systems that one adheres to like some form of orthodoxy. Some people may do that, but I think that is a odd approach, and one which I would question the function of - i.e., is it aimed at liberation, or is it aimed at being clever?
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 pmIn one article I read on Lionsroar.com, it lead me to believe that there is a philosophical split between Madhyamaka and Yogacara and one could not follow both schools. I am assuming from some of the answers, this conclusion may have been wrong.
In most Tibetan Buddhist schools, Madhyamaka is the highest viewpoint, with the Yogacāra school's perspective held as being inferior. This hierarchy is also enshrined in tantras such as Hevajra, where Madhyamaka is held to be superior to Yogacāra.

There is a lot of modern scholarship however, which tries to reinterpret yogacāra in better light. I personally don't find it very convincing, but others do.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:49 pmWhere do East Asian schools stand on this issue? Do some schools follow Yogacara philosophy, or are they like the Tibetans and consider themselves mostly to be Madhyamaka?
There are eight or ten schools distinguished traditionally in Chinese Buddhism (Satyasiddhi 成實宗; Abhidharmakosa 俱舍宗; Vinaya 律宗; Sanlun 三論宗; Faxiang 法相宗; Tiantai 天台宗; Huayan 華嚴宗; Zhenyan 真言宗; Chan 禪宗; Jingtu 淨土宗), and in Japanese Buddhism there are the so called six schools of Nara (Jojitsu 成実宗; Kusha 倶舎宗; Ritsu 律宗; Sanron 三論宗; Hossō 法相宗; Kegon 華嚴宗). Of those Sanlun/Sanron correspond to Madhyamaka and Faxiang/Hossō to Yogacara. In China both disappeared quite early, while in Japan the Hossō school still exists, and one of its priests actually has a book translated to English: Living Yogacara: An Introduction to Consciousness-Only Buddhism. Apart from that, there are people who study Yogacara in East Asia, but no school dedicated to it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by madhyamaka man »

[Moderator's note: As an exception this duplicate post was accepted https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 95#p563995
because it really relates to both of these seperated topics.]


I am also in the learning stages. This is my thoughts on Madhyamaka, and Yogachara. I think it can serve to supplement the previous posts, several of which are amazing. Please kindly correct my if I have presented incorrect views or materials. Thank you.

Nagarjuna’s Madhyamaka teaching and Asanga’s Yogachara teaching are two major schools in the development of Mahayana Buddhism in India. Both of them, Nagarjuna and Asanga, are Indian Buddhist philosophers. Nagarjuna lived around 300 AD, and Asanga lived around 400 AD.

In the end, you will find that Madhyamka and Yogachara can be thought of as complementary to each other.

Madhyamaka teaches the three aspects of all things. They are (1) empty, (2) fakely conditional existence, (3) abide by the middle.

Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka (Middle Way Perspective) teaching conveys three important aspects of reality and for cultivation. (1) Emptiness - everything is empty. There is no true (concrete) existence. (2) Fake Conditional - everything is fake and conditional, existing only upon non-original, other-dependent arising. There is no independent (atman or objects) existence. (3) Abiding in the Middle - we should not attach to the empty, nor should we attach to the fake conditional existence; but we should stay in the middle way when we cultivate towards nirvana, final complete enlightenment.

Yogachara teaches from the angle of phenomenology; that all phenomena are from our consciousness. All are illusions, hallucinations, but very existing, arising from our consciousness(es). Yogarchara arbitrarily classifies all things into 100 categories called the “one hundred dharmas”.

Madhyamaka is more of an overview of the grand picture of the universe, and of the sentient beings. That everything is empty and fakely conditional. Yogachara focuses its lens on the things we are attached to, the fakely conditional consciousness and consciousness-produced by-product objects. Yogachara divided all existence into 100 categories of dharma, and we have to purify all 100 dharmas to be truly empty. Without Yogachara, just Madhyamaka, there is no categorization of ordinary being's perceptions.

Yogachara is explaining how the fakely conditionals of Madhyamaka works, how consciousness(es) produce external objects, and how they interact.

Madhyamaka is more focused on “emptiness”. Yogachara is more focused on "existence" as perceived by ordinary beings, and that this however fake "existence" still has its laws of universe, karma. Just using only the Madhyamaka may fall into an emptiness-nothingness trap of nihilism.

Yogachara gets cultivators "more grounded" and not neglect karma and the experiential aspects , and to know of human psychology and perception, and how the world born out of everyone's consciousness(es).

Yogachara is explaining how the fakely conditionals of Madhyamaka works, how consciousness produce external objects, and how they interact.

The One Hundred Dharmas in Yogachara:

http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/outlin ... armas.html

The 100 Dharmas is merely one method of cultivation; to focus on the 100 major categories of the universe, and purify all 100 dharmas until enlightenment.

Yogachara is taught by Asanga. He teaches how the universe, and everything and everyone in it, can be categorized into 100 dharmas. We have to purify the 100 dharmas to become a Buddha. The 100 dharmas are by-products of a skewed consciouness.

Madhyamaka focuses on refuting that how everything does not really exist – the intellectual aspect. Yogachara focuses on how the existence as we perceived can be transformed into a nirvana state. One is on cultivating "emptiness". The other one is on cultivating "existence". That is how I personally think that in one view, Madhyamaka and Yogachara complement each other.

Madhyamaka says all is empty and fakely conditional. Yogachara says that all is a manifestation of skewed consciousness. Mahaparinrvana tells you how enlightenment of yourself would be in a state of (eternality, blissful, true self, selfless purity). Lotus sutra talks of that all sentient beings can become a Buddha, and that the Buddha essence is inherent in all beings. Avatamsaka talks about how the Buddha's consciousness pervades all realms, and talks about myriad methods of cultivation. Shurangama talks about the deluded mind and the true mind, and reincarnation.

To me, Madhyamaka, Yogachara, Mahaparinirvana, Abhidharma, Theravada, Lotus, Shurangama, and Avatamsaka, etc., are all pieces of a grand puzzle, to the truth of the universe.

All phenomena are produced from our skewed consciousness. And speaking on the "mundane" level, we are trapped by our consciousness, which produced gravity, Newton's Laws, all laws of physics, general and special relativity, and quantum mechanics. Our consciousness produced the world, the different elements, particles, as well as the laws of physics, and karma.

We have lost control of things our minds created.

We are trapped by consciousness by-products objects (attachment), cravings (desires), false views, and karma.

The "third" school, Tathagatagarbha, talks about the various aspects of Buddhahood, from beginning (Lotus), to myriad methods of cultivation (Avatamsaka), through wisdom cultivation (Shurangama), to the final stage of nirvana (Mahaparinirvana sutra).
Madhyamaka and Yogachara talk about what is not the true self, but do not tell you how nirvana is. Mahaparinirva talks about the state of nirvana, true self (eternal and timeless, blissful, true self, selfless purity).

To me, Madhyamaka, Yogachara, and Tathagatgarbha overlap in many aspects and are pieces to the grand puzzle of the Truth (nirvana / enlightenment).

PS.

The eight/ten sects and schools of Chinese Buddhism focus on different sutras and shastras. Each Chinese sect has a mixture incorporation of the three major India(n) schools. For example, you can say that Zen/Chan has elements of Madhyamaka, Yogachara, and Tathagatgarbha teachings.

Each Mahayana sutra somewhat contains or implicates to the three India(n) schools of Buddhist philosophy.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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FromTheEarth wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:39 am Last year, Jay Garfield and the Sravasti Abbey recorded a lecture series on Yogacara's understanding of emptiness. You can easily find it on Youtube. I cannot think of a more accessible yet informative and philosophically interesting introduction than this.
Also, since both parties come from the Gelug background, there was some interesting discussion about the Y-M debate.
Been slowly watching this series and would definitely recommend this, as Jay Garfield is a very informed and compelling scholar.

On a side note, what would be the essential texts pertaining to Yogachara, available in English translation today? To my knowledge, Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosabasya, Asanga's Yogacharabhumisastra, Mahayanasamgraha, Abhidharmasamuccaya, the Samdhinirmocana Sutra and Scripture on the Explication of Underlying Meaning are some, but additional or complementary works would be welcomed as well.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Manjushri wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 amwhat would be the essential texts pertaining to Yogachara, available in English translation today?
Mahayanasamgraha, Mahayanasutralamkara, Madhyantavibhaga, Vimsatika, Trimsika, Trisvabhavanirdesa, Cheng Weishi Lun.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by Matt J »

Some commentaries:

Influence of Yogacara on Tantra by Traleg Rinpoche
Opening the Clear Vision of the Mind Only School, Khenpo Rinpoches (a part of the PSL Shedra series which covers many topics)

For a less intellectual approach, if you want more than book knowledge:

Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche
Dream Yoga, by Andrew Holocek (book or audio series)

Personally, I think the practice of dream yoga is where it's at for understanding the basics of Yogacara.
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Matt J wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:08 pm Some commentaries:
Thanks Matt.
Astus wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:48 pm
Manjushri wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 amwhat would be the essential texts pertaining to Yogachara, available in English translation today?
Mahayanasamgraha, Mahayanasutralamkara, Madhyantavibhaga, Vimsatika, Trimsika, Trisvabhavanirdesa, Cheng Weishi Lun.
Thanks Astus, however I must ask, where would I find those translations of the works by Vasubandhu? I know many are available on the book "Seven Works of Vasubandhu, The Buddhist Psychological Doctor", but it's such a hard book to find given the time of its publication. Have there been more recent editions?
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

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Manjushri wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:15 amwhere would I find those translations of the works by Vasubandhu?
There are the translations by Kochumuttom in A Buddhist Doctrine of Experience and by Thomas E. Wood in Mind Only. Online the Vimsatika and Trimsika are included in the BDK volume Three Texts on Consciousness Only, and the Trisvabhavanirdesa translated by Garfield is available here.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by Tao »

In the past, I found this text quite useful (is short):

http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Yo ... USNESS.htm
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Re: Can someone explain Yogacara to me?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Astus wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:34 pm
Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:49 pmWhere do East Asian schools stand on this issue? Do some schools follow Yogacara philosophy, or are they like the Tibetans and consider themselves mostly to be Madhyamaka?
There are eight or ten schools distinguished traditionally in Chinese Buddhism (Satyasiddhi 成實宗; Abhidharmakosa 俱舍宗; Vinaya 律宗; Sanlun 三論宗; Faxiang 法相宗; Tiantai 天台宗; Huayan 華嚴宗; Zhenyan 真言宗; Chan 禪宗; Jingtu 淨土宗), and in Japanese Buddhism there are the so called six schools of Nara (Jojitsu 成実宗; Kusha 倶舎宗; Ritsu 律宗; Sanron 三論宗; Hossō 法相宗; Kegon 華嚴宗). Of those Sanlun/Sanron correspond to Madhyamaka and Faxiang/Hossō to Yogacara. In China both disappeared quite early, while in Japan the Hossō school still exists, and one of its priests actually has a book translated to English: Living Yogacara: An Introduction to Consciousness-Only Buddhism. Apart from that, there are people who study Yogacara in East Asia, but no school dedicated to it.
As was noted on Dharma Wheel in 2019, a German monk studying Yogacara in the Hosso sect at Kofukuji Temple in Nara, Japan, became the first person in 8 years to pass a particularly rigorous, 1000-year-old qualifying exam in East Asian Yogacara:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=32323

His achievement was all the more impressive to me for two reasons: 1) the linguistic demands on a foreigner in Japan studying a complex philosophy such as that of the Hosso-Shu are formidable indeed, in addition to the raw doctrinal prowess necessary; and 2) the price of failure of the exam would have been exile from his monastic home at Kofukuji. So he took quite a risk and his success is impressive indeed. I hope we hear more from this man, who is now authorized to head a sub-temple of the tiny Hosso-shu sect.

It is gratifying indeed to me that this ancient Yogacara tradition, though greatly reduced in scope from its 8th-century position near the pinnacle of Japanese Buddhism, continues to live on in the 21st century, and to inspire international adherents.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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