Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

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cjdevries
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Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by cjdevries »

Let's say you are praying to a deity for help in selling something to pay for an important project that will benefit others. If you pray for help in getting the items sold, does that create a karmic debt?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Define: “karmic debt”
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cjdevries
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by cjdevries »

Some kind of energy that will have to be paid back in one form or another.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche

"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
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Hazel
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by Hazel »

cjdevries wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:23 am Some kind of energy that will have to be paid back in one form or another.
Is the thought here that getting the money is what creates the debt?
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cjdevries
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by cjdevries »

I was thinking that making the prayers asking for something may create a debt, but that might not be so.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche

"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

cjdevries wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:23 am Some kind of energy that will have to be paid back in one form or another.
That’s sort of what I thought.
This isn’t how karma works.
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by karmanyingpo »

I am not well versed enough to say exactly what a karmic debter IS but I know the idea does exist in Buddhism because I have seen it referenced in at least 2 different practices.

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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by kirtu »

cjdevries wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 pm Let's say you are praying to a deity for help in selling something to pay for an important project that will benefit others. If you pray for help in getting the items sold, does that create a karmic debt?
It doesn't create karmic debt (unless you do something like an animal sacrifice <<sorry to mention this>>). The praying just plants inclinations in the mind toward theism. But this also depends on how you view the deity and this applies to a wordly deity. If you are talking about a Buddhist deity then this is positive because these deities are all Buddhas. OTOH you said that this was to pay for something to benefit others so merit would be created.

It's possible that under some circumstances your action burns up merit (for example winning in gambling, which was not your scenario).

Kirt
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by karmanyingpo »

kirtu wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:48 am
cjdevries wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 pm Let's say you are praying to a deity for help in selling something to pay for an important project that will benefit others. If you pray for help in getting the items sold, does that create a karmic debt?
It doesn't create karmic debt (unless you do something like an animal sacrifice <<sorry to mention this>>). The praying just plants inclinations in the mind toward theism. But this also depends on how you view the deity and this applies to a wordly deity. If you are talking about a Buddhist deity then this is positive because these deities are all Buddhas. OTOH you said that this was to pay for something to benefit others so merit would be created.

It's possible that under some circumstances your action burns up merit (for example winning in gambling, which was not your scenario).

Kirt
Astute answer, thank you Kirt. Would you please help me understand what exactly a karmic debtor is in buddhism and under what circumstances karmic debt happens. I think that would help add some context to this conversation!

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by GrapeLover »

karmanyingpo wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:37 am I am not well versed enough to say exactly what a karmic debter IS but I know the idea does exist in Buddhism because I have seen it referenced in at least 2 different practices.

KN
Yes, if one Googles “site:lotsawahouse.org debt” one can see how prevalent it is. The Black Lawsuit Sutra also has a purpose to pacify “karmic debts of family and relatives” for a random sutric source. So it might seem like a woo-woo idea to some but it’s not unorthodox.
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by kirtu »

karmanyingpo wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:31 am
kirtu wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:48 am
cjdevries wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:59 pm Let's say you are praying to a deity for help in selling something to pay for an important project that will benefit others. If you pray for help in getting the items sold, does that create a karmic debt?
...
Astute answer, thank you Kirt. Would you please help me understand what exactly a karmic debtor is in buddhism and under what circumstances karmic debt happens. I think that would help add some context to this conversation!

As GrapeLover suggests we would need to look at authoritative teaching to really define the term and really make sure we have covered it correctly.

I do not remember my teachers ever really teaching explicitly on karmic debt although the Nyingma teachers mentioned it more than the Sakya teachers, although they all mentioned it at one time or another. So I don't think I can provide a comprehensive answer. My Zen teachers have never really spoken about it at all (at least not using the term karmic debt).

My limited understanding is that karmic debts are karma created because of things we have done that harmed specific beings. So if we hit a being because we were angry, or if we yelled at a being, or killed a being. These could also be generated if we intentionally did not help beings when we could have. These could be generated by actions of body, speech or mind. So if we think badly about beings or groups of beings this would create a karmic debt.

But this is my limited understanding of the subject. As I mentioned my lamas haven't really taught me much in detail about it (even though it is mentioned in some practices directly). As far as I can tell this is just the same as negative karma generated against a being or groups of beings.

But we'd need to dig into commentaries to get a full picture.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

“Debt” is really a misleading term. It can be misunderstood as somehow borrowing “karmic energy” from the universe or whatever, and needing to pay it back, or pay it forward, in order to balance out your own accounts. But that’s not it.

It’s more like being in a sailboat, sailing towards liberation from samsara, and strong winds blow you off course. Where did these winds come from? You created them yourself, in the past, and now here they are.

You can pray to deities or protectors but it’s not as though you owe them anything. Dharma practice isn’t about making deals.

I think it would be better to think of it as “unresolved issues from previous lives” or even from within this life, than “debt”.

There may be other beings from your past involved in the creation of this kind of obstacle, but it’s not quite as simple as saying, for example, that you killed someone in a previous life and now whoever they are in this life, now you need to do them a favor.

Suppose you committed a certain action in a past life, and that action caused you a great deal of guilt and remorse, for example. Then, maybe in this life, you feel like you should always be apologizing to people all the time, you develop low self-esteem, lack confidence in your Dharma practice and so on.
So, this type of attitude is then very hard to break free from. It becomes an obstacle in this lifetime. That’s really more what the concept refers to.

These issues propel us to behave in certain ways. It’s like when you stub your toe yesterday, you are walking with a limp today. Until the toe heals, the action of yesterday will keep manifesting today, maybe as painful limping today. When the toe finally stops hurting, when that “karma” is exhausted, then your foot will be back to normal.
Only, here we are talking about things like strong attachment, anger, desire from previous lifetimes. This, in turn, influences our behavior in this lifetime, causing you to create more karma, as well as creating obstacles.

Karma from one life doesn’t automatically ripen in the next life. You may have lots of different karma from different lifetimes, both positive and negative. The “stronger” karma pushes its way to the front. It’s like having lots of pots on the stove. On the back of the stove maybe something that’s taking a long time to cook over low flame, like beans, and up front, something that cooks very fast, over high a high flame like a stir-fry.

Maybe many lifetimes ago, you were a little stingy with money, and you hoarded it rather than putting it to good use. That can ripen in the present as a feeling of lacking, of not having enough (even tough you may have all you need). But if, in another lifetime even before that, you were full of anger and rage and killed people, the karma from those earlier actions may ripen before the more recent karma from being stingy ripens, because there is a deeper imprint on the mind (alaya vijnana). You might say, “bigger fires to put out”.

Wishing to benefit others, praying to Dzambala for winning the lottery so you can help the homeless, that’s not incurring “karmic debt”.

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Karmic_debt
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Re: Does Praying for a Wish Create a Karmic Debt?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I'd imagine that praying to enlightened deities can only be good, and that they would be more than happy for the opportunity to express bodhicitta in the world. Actually, their purpose is only to help others and never themselves. I'd imagine that beautiful prayers for the well being of others actually creates merit! (Perhaps self-oriented prayers use it up.)

Buddhas and bodhisattvas are limitless! I'm not sure you would be in their debt... but if you were, what could be bad about karmic connection with enlightened beings?
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