How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

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Malcolm
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:55 pmPeople inspired by Buddhism, who practice ethics and meditation for this life are not Dharma practitioners, no matter how nice, kind, or good they may be, whether they consider themselves Buddhists or not.
How about what is called "the least capacity" or "lesser scope"?

'Know that those who by whatever means
Seek for themselves no more
Than the pleasures of cyclic existence
Are persons of the least capacity.'

(Lamp for the Path, v 3, in Illuminating the Path to Enlightenment, p 69)

'Given the distinction between virtue and nonvirtue as laid down in the teachings, it is important to rely on virtue. The ten virtues tending to happiness will produce happy destinies, while negative action will precipitate a fall into the states of loss. To understand this distinction correctly, according to the karmic law of cause and effect, and to adopt positive rather than negative behavior is the so-called path of beings of lesser scope.'
(Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 1, p 151)
These are people without renunciation, not people attached to this life.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Artziebetter1
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:39 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm How is it different from sravaka nibbana? the only difference is that a bodhjsattva Buddha has past merit and volition (I don’t know how this would actually work without a storage for that past merit and volition and how a unconscious being can complexly interact but That’s the belief)...
Perhaps that isn’t the belief, which would certainly explain the difficulty in figuring out “how that would actually work”. You keep asserting that a Buddha has no awareness. You continue to confuse the extinction of attachment (to the illusion of self) with total elimination of awareness itself.

By the way, I’m still waiting to find out from you exactly who gets reborn ...you, or your consciousness?
Show me sources that a Buddha has subjective awareness .
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:51 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:39 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm How is it different from sravaka nibbana? the only difference is that a bodhjsattva Buddha has past merit and volition (I don’t know how this would actually work without a storage for that past merit and volition and how a unconscious being can complexly interact but That’s the belief)...
Perhaps that isn’t the belief, which would certainly explain the difficulty in figuring out “how that would actually work”. You keep asserting that a Buddha has no awareness. You continue to confuse the extinction of attachment (to the illusion of self) with total elimination of awareness itself.

By the way, I’m still waiting to find out from you exactly who gets reborn ...you, or your consciousness?
Show me sources that a Buddha has subjective awareness .
You mean like, every time Shakyamuni answered someone’s questions in a sutra?
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Malcolm
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Malcolm »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:51 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:39 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm How is it different from sravaka nibbana? the only difference is that a bodhjsattva Buddha has past merit and volition (I don’t know how this would actually work without a storage for that past merit and volition and how a unconscious being can complexly interact but That’s the belief)...
Perhaps that isn’t the belief, which would certainly explain the difficulty in figuring out “how that would actually work”. You keep asserting that a Buddha has no awareness. You continue to confuse the extinction of attachment (to the illusion of self) with total elimination of awareness itself.

By the way, I’m still waiting to find out from you exactly who gets reborn ...you, or your consciousness?
Show me sources that a Buddha has subjective awareness .
They have two kinds of omniscience, hence they possess subjective awareness. They are not inert.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Artziebetter1
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:49 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:51 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:39 pm
Perhaps that isn’t the belief, which would certainly explain the difficulty in figuring out “how that would actually work”. You keep asserting that a Buddha has no awareness. You continue to confuse the extinction of attachment (to the illusion of self) with total elimination of awareness itself.

By the way, I’m still waiting to find out from you exactly who gets reborn ...you, or your consciousness?
Show me sources that a Buddha has subjective awareness .
They have two kinds of omniscience, hence they possess subjective awareness. They are not inert.
If that’s the case then I don’t fear nirvana. But I thought the sutras say they have no sensation or wisdom contact anymore and also the alaya ceases so what’s left of a buddha? https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=19423 Here it says they have no mental factors or minds,they have no thoughts,no sensation or wisdom contact anymore etc

How do they then have the subjective experience of awareness?

If they do however I apologize for my past dismissal of nirvana and I want it then .
Last edited by Artziebetter1 on Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:49 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:51 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:39 pm
Perhaps that isn’t the belief, which would certainly explain the difficulty in figuring out “how that would actually work”. You keep asserting that a Buddha has no awareness. You continue to confuse the extinction of attachment (to the illusion of self) with total elimination of awareness itself.

By the way, I’m still waiting to find out from you exactly who gets reborn ...you, or your consciousness?
Show me sources that a Buddha has subjective awareness .
They have two kinds of omniscience, hence they possess subjective awareness. They are not inert.
But aren’t there sources wich say they have no minds and no perception?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:49 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:51 am
Show me sources that a Buddha has subjective awareness .
They have two kinds of omniscience, hence they possess subjective awareness. They are not inert.
But aren’t there sources wich say they have no minds and no perception?
If a Buddha had no mind and no perception, how would anyone know about that? A Buddha wouldn’t be able to tell anyone. So, anyone who says that a Buddha has no mind or perception really has no way of knowing that.
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Malcolm
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Malcolm »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:49 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:51 am
Show me sources that a Buddha has subjective awareness .
They have two kinds of omniscience, hence they possess subjective awareness. They are not inert.
If that’s the case then I don’t fear nirvana. But I thought the sutras say they have no sensation or wisdom contact anymore and also the alaya ceases so what’s left of a buddha?
Nondual jñāna, gnosis.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Artziebetter1
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:59 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:49 pm

They have two kinds of omniscience, hence they possess subjective awareness. They are not inert.
But aren’t there sources wich say they have no minds and no perception?
If a Buddha had no mind and no perception, how would anyone know about that? A Buddha wouldn’t be able to tell anyone. So, anyone who says that a Buddha has no mind or perception really has no way of knowing that.
That’s what I’m wondering but that’s what the Buddha said:

[Buddha says] “Mañjuśrī, as an analogy, when the sun rises, it first shines on high
mountains, then low mountains, and then the ground. Likewise a Tathāgata has
no mind [citta], mental faculty [manas], or consciousness [vijñāna]. He has no
appearance, and is apart from any appearance and free from all appearances. He
is attached to neither this nor that, abides on neither this shore nor that shore
opposite this shore, nor the flow in the middle. He is inconceivable, neither
high nor low, beyond one’s thinking. He has neither bondage nor liberation,
neither cognition nor no cognition, neither afflictions nor no afflictions, neither
wisdom-knowledge nor no wisdom-knowledge. He is neither real nor unreal,
neither conceivable nor inconceivable. He has neither thinking nor no thinking,
neither mind nor no mind, neither mental faculty nor no mental faculty,
neither form nor no form, neither names nor no names. He neither takes nor
does not take action, neither grasps nor does not grasp anything, neither speaks
nor does not speak. He is neither describable nor indescribable, neither visible
nor invisible, neither a guiding teacher nor not a guiding teacher, and has
neither acquired nor not acquired the [bodhi] fruit.


From Sūtra of Entering the States of All Buddhas Adorned with Wisdom, Rulu translation.

and

The Ornament of the Light of Awareness that Enters the Domain of All Buddhas - Sarva­buddha­viṣayāvatāra­jñānālokālaṃkāra

http://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-047-002.html

1.40
“Mañjuśrī, in the same manner the Tathāgata, the Arhat, the Perfect and Complete Buddha is empty, dependent, unreal, without syllables, without voice, without place, and also not an existent thing. He is inconceivable, without signs, and free from mentality, mind, and consciousness. He is non-arisen and unceasing.
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:11 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:49 pm

They have two kinds of omniscience, hence they possess subjective awareness. They are not inert.
If that’s the case then I don’t fear nirvana. But I thought the sutras say they have no sensation or wisdom contact anymore and also the alaya ceases so what’s left of a buddha?
Nondual jñāna, gnosis.
Is that an actual functioning not merely conceptual thing or merely an abstraction?do Buddhas have minds?I think not.I also heard from nyanasagara that in Jnana there is no subjective awareness or appearances.So How do Buddhas act and interact with the world without a mind or perception?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:23 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:59 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:45 pm

But aren’t there sources wich say they have no minds and no perception?
If a Buddha had no mind and no perception, how would anyone know about that? A Buddha wouldn’t be able to tell anyone. So, anyone who says that a Buddha has no mind or perception really has no way of knowing that.
That’s what I’m wondering but that’s what the Buddha said:

[Buddha says] “Mañjuśrī, as an analogy, when the sun rises, it first shines on high
mountains, then low mountains, and then the ground. Likewise a Tathāgata has
no mind [citta], mental faculty [manas], or consciousness [vijñāna]. He has no
appearance, and is apart from any appearance and free from all appearances. He
is attached to neither this nor that, abides on neither this shore nor that shore
opposite this shore, nor the flow in the middle. He is inconceivable, neither
high nor low, beyond one’s thinking. He has neither bondage nor liberation,
neither cognition nor no cognition, neither afflictions nor no afflictions, neither
wisdom-knowledge nor no wisdom-knowledge. He is neither real nor unreal,
neither conceivable nor inconceivable. He has neither thinking nor no thinking,
neither mind nor no mind, neither mental faculty nor no mental faculty,
neither form nor no form, neither names nor no names. He neither takes nor
does not take action, neither grasps nor does not grasp anything, neither speaks
nor does not speak. He is neither describable nor indescribable, neither visible
nor invisible, neither a guiding teacher nor not a guiding teacher, and has
neither acquired nor not acquired the [bodhi] fruit.


From Sūtra of Entering the States of All Buddhas Adorned with Wisdom, Rulu translation.

and

The Ornament of the Light of Awareness that Enters the Domain of All Buddhas - Sarva­buddha­viṣayāvatāra­jñānālokālaṃkāra

http://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-047-002.html

1.40
“Mañjuśrī, in the same manner the Tathāgata, the Arhat, the Perfect and Complete Buddha is empty, dependent, unreal, without syllables, without voice, without place, and also not an existent thing. He is inconceivable, without signs, and free from mentality, mind, and consciousness. He is non-arisen and unceasing.
You have to read that within the context cof the entire sutra. Picking out this line or that doesn’t work. It’s not like referring to some courtroom testimony, “during questioning the defendant stated...”. Nor does this mean any random interpretation is valid. But you have to use logic too. Obviously someone, a Buddha or not, can’t say “I don’t have any cognition”. That’s like knocking on a door and a voice from the other side responding, “nobody is at home”. So, you can rule out some misunderstandings simply by applying logical reasoning, rather than pondering how seemingly impossible or contradictory phrases make sense.

The point of this sutra is that the tathagata is beyond extremes. Specifically, what is indicated here is that for a Buddha, awareness isn’t arising conditionally or fabricated in the way it does with ordinary beings who dwell in confusion. This is explained in the summary at the beginning of the link which you provided. The Buddha is referring to conceptual awareness.
What is conceptual awareness, as opposed to non-conceptual awareness? Everything you are aware of right now but not thinking about is a type of non-conceptual awareness. When you accidentally cut your finger and instantly feel pain, you don’t need to think about it. That’s another type of non-conceptual awareness.
Those are just two examples to give some rough idea. But a Buddha’s non-conceptual awareness transcends all appearances, all dualities.
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Malcolm
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Malcolm »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 pm Is that an actual functioning not merely conceptual thing or merely an abstraction?do Buddhas have minds?I think not.I also heard from nyanasagara that in Jnana there is no subjective awareness or appearances.So How do Buddhas act and interact with the world without a mind or perception?
Spontaneously, in accord with the needs of sentient beings.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 pm Is that an actual functioning not merely conceptual thing or merely an abstraction?do Buddhas have minds?I think not.I also heard from nyanasagara that in Jnana there is no subjective awareness or appearances.So How do Buddhas act and interact with the world without a mind or perception?
How do sperm know to swim to an egg, or white blood cells know to attack bacteria? They don’t have minds or perception either, yet it is a common occurrence.
Why then, when one returns to original mind as it is often called, should such functioning be hard to fathom, as it is already there to begin with, and everything apparently emerges from it?
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Astus »

A pertinent educational animation by Dharma Drum Mountain TV: Chan in Daily Life motion picture series (1): Neon fans
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Artziebetter1
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:38 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 pm Is that an actual functioning not merely conceptual thing or merely an abstraction?do Buddhas have minds?I think not.I also heard from nyanasagara that in Jnana there is no subjective awareness or appearances.So How do Buddhas act and interact with the world without a mind or perception?
How do sperm know to swim to an egg, or white blood cells know to attack bacteria? They don’t have minds or perception either, yet it is a common occurrence.
Why then, when one returns to original mind as it is often called, should such functioning be hard to fathom, as it is already there to begin with, and everything apparently emerges from it?
Original Mind is your idea.it wouldn't be accepted by others on this website.you have a vedantin view on Awareness.once the alaya perishes thats it.there is no more mind left.

There is no proof that the Buddha is just talking about conceptual awareness and that he has some mind that is still nonconceptually aware.The Text doesn't Say this.

the question of how they can interact is still a relevant one.a cell is like a robot,and has a biomemory.are you saying the Buddha is like a robot?if so,how?How can he act on past volition and merit if his mind is completely eradicated and minds are all that exist basically anyway?even robots have some receptacle for their programming,even if they aren't sentient.and if Minds are all that exist in Yogachara and its hybrid schools,how can the Buddha be said to exist once his mind is eradicated forever?without a Mind how can past volition and merit be stored and function for the unconscious Buddha?A buddha acts based on past volition and merit but how if there is no mind or receptacle for this?and if Minds are all that exist in Yogachara and Hybrid schools thereof how can Buddha even be said to exist without a Mind?
Artziebetter1
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:41 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 pm Is that an actual functioning not merely conceptual thing or merely an abstraction?do Buddhas have minds?I think not.I also heard from nyanasagara that in Jnana there is no subjective awareness or appearances.So How do Buddhas act and interact with the world without a mind or perception?
Spontaneously, in accord with the needs of sentient beings.
this explains what he does but not how.without a Mind or receptacle for past volition and Merit,without cognition,interaction could basically never occur.What is Jnana?is it a type of mind?is it an abstraction talking about how a Buddha acts with 5 wisdoms despite having no Mind?
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:47 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:38 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 pm Is that an actual functioning not merely conceptual thing or merely an abstraction?do Buddhas have minds?I think not.I also heard from nyanasagara that in Jnana there is no subjective awareness or appearances.So How do Buddhas act and interact with the world without a mind or perception?
How do sperm know to swim to an egg, or white blood cells know to attack bacteria? They don’t have minds or perception either, yet it is a common occurrence.
Why then, when one returns to original mind as it is often called, should such functioning be hard to fathom, as it is already there to begin with, and everything apparently emerges from it?
Original Mind is your idea.it wouldn't be accepted by others on this website.you have a vedantin view on Awareness.once the alaya perishes thats it.there is no more mind left.

There is no proof that the Buddha is just talking about conceptual awareness and that he has some mind that is still nonconceptually aware.The Text doesn't Say this.

the question of how they can interact is still a relevant one.a cell is like a robot,and has a biomemory.are you saying the Buddha is like a robot?if so,how?How can he act on past volition and merit if his mind is completely eradicated and minds are all that exist basically anyway?even robots have some receptacle for their programming,even if they aren't sentient.and if Minds are all that exist in Yogachara and its hybrid schools,how can the Buddha be said to exist once his mind is eradicated forever?without a Mind how can past volition and merit be stored and function for the unconscious Buddha?A buddha acts based on past volition and merit but how if there is no mind or receptacle for this?and if Minds are all that exist in Yogachara and Hybrid schools thereof how can Buddha even be said to exist without a Mind?
1. Ultimately, what you are arguing is that
Buddha is an impossibility.

2. The sutra you cited is specifically about the question of non-arising and non-cessation. If you don’t read the sutra within the context of answering that question, then of course you will misunderstand the answer.

3. What I said was,
“...original mind as it is often called
You sure do like to take things out of context.
Bankai called it “unborn” mind.
A zen koan refers to “your original face”.
Every tradition has names for it.
This isn’t Vedic stuff.
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Malcolm
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by Malcolm »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:41 pm
Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:26 pm Is that an actual functioning not merely conceptual thing or merely an abstraction?do Buddhas have minds?I think not.I also heard from nyanasagara that in Jnana there is no subjective awareness or appearances.So How do Buddhas act and interact with the world without a mind or perception?
Spontaneously, in accord with the needs of sentient beings.
this explains what he does but not how.without a Mind or receptacle for past volition and Merit,without cognition,interaction could basically never occur.What is Jnana?is it a type of mind?is it an abstraction talking about how a Buddha acts with 5 wisdoms despite having no Mind?
Based on his past aspirations while a bodhisattva on the path. A Buddhas gnosis is a consciousness that has become free of limitations.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:01 pmwithout a Mind or receptacle for past volition and Merit,without cognition,interaction could basically never occur.
This argument must then conclude that the person to whom the Buddhist teachings are attributed couldn’t possibly be a Buddha, because, according to this view, a Buddha can’t possibly interact (give teachings).

But if that’s the case, then based on that premise, any sutra you cite as valid evidence to support your view must be regarded as invalid, meaning that it’s not the teachings of a Buddha.

So, you can’t cite a sutra to support your argument.
If you cite a sutra to support your argument, then you must acknowledge that the Buddha interacted with his disciples. Hence, the interpretation of the sutra as suggesting that a buddha has zero consciousness must be regarded as a faulty interpretation.
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Re: How exactly is there a momentariness of consciousness ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:45 pmBut aren’t there sources wich say they have no minds and no perception?
You might want to read the first few chapters of the Surangama Sutra. In it, the Buddha gives the exemple to Ananda the hypothetical situation of a person who has become blind, or person entering a completely dark room, where he cannot see anything.
This is a specific hypothetical used to explain a much wider understanding. The person in the dark room can’t see anything using his eyes. However, the person can still see that he can’t see anything. The visual awareness is still there.
In another example from the same sutra, Buddha asks ananda whether his awareness itself grows larger looking at something far away. I other words, the planet Venus is 162 million miles away from the Earth. Does your awareness need to increase in order to see it? Conversely, suppose you are pulling a splinter from your finger and focusing very closely on that tiny area. Did your awareness shrink in size... do you have less awareness when you are pulling out a splinter? Suppose you looked at your face in the mirror when you were five years old, and again this morning. Your body has aged, but is your awareness itself of that reflection different? The answer to these of course is no. The fundamental awareness doesn’t change. So the point being made is that there is unchanging awareness which doesn’t rely on conditions.
When the sutra you quoted says that a Buddha doesn’t have any consciousness, this means that he isn’t relying on the eyes or other sense organs. But just in just the same way that if you completely block your vision, your visual awareness can tell it’s blocked, similarly a Buddha’s awareness is like that. A Buddha doesn’t rely on ordinary consciousness that arises from contact or other conditions.
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