Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

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CosmosFF
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Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by CosmosFF »

i do not think i understand the whole thing about this topic. In my understanding, you can see things as beautiful and things as ugly, but the most important part is to not be attached to beauty or to avoid ugliness... is this true? or does the buddha see the most vile gore the same as he sees the blue summer sky? He sees them as pure and all that, but what does this mean in practical terms?
myself, i can look at something ugly and not feel disturbed but still perceive it as ugly, as i would rather see something beautiful. Is this the same thing as "when hungry, eat"? I am guessing it could be so that I (my ego) actually is disturbed by the ugly sight because of it's own selfish perspectives...
Is appreaciating beauty without craving it a trait of a buddha, or does one then not see beauty in the same way? Because i like the blue sky and cute anime girls... just looking at them, that is :sage:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Beauty and ugliness is projections of one’s own mind.
They aren’t inherent in the objects you are looking at.
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by FiveSkandhas »


Paṭikkūlamanasikāra (variant: paṭikūlamanasikāra) is a Pāli term that is generally translated as "reflections on repulsiveness". It refers to a traditional Buddhist meditation whereby thirty-one parts of the body are contemplated in a variety of ways. In addition to developing sati (mindfulness) and samādhi (concentration), this form of meditation is considered conducive to overcoming desire and lust. Along with cemetery contemplations, this type of meditation is one of the two meditations on "the foul"/unattractiveness (Pāli: asubha).


This meditation involves meditating on 31 different body parts:
head hairs (Pali: kesā), body hairs (lomā), nails (nakhā), teeth (dantā), skin (taco),
flesh (maṃsaṃ), tendons (nahāru), bones (aṭṭhi), bone marrow (aṭṭhimiñjaṃ), kidneys (vakkaṃ),
heart (hadayaṃ), liver (yakanaṃ), pleura (kilomakaṃ), spleen (pihakaṃ), lungs (papphāsaṃ),
large intestines (antaṃ), small intestines (antaguṇaṃ), undigested food (udariyaṃ), feces (karīsaṃ),
bile (pittaṃ), phlegm (semhaṃ), pus (pubbo), blood (lohitaṃ), sweat (sedo), fat (medo),
tears (assu), skin-oil (vasā), saliva (kheḷo), mucus (siṅghānikā), fluid in the joints (lasikā), urine (muttaṃ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patikulamanasikara
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Budai
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Budai »

Evil is ugly, and all good whatever it is is always beautiful one hundred percent whatever it is, however there is potential in the phenomena of evil entering into tranquil extinction and becoming good and also Buddha, so extending our compassion to evil people and changing evil things' constitution into good makes them feel Loved, and in that way it transcends the duality of ugly and beautiful, out of time and our of form. Who someone is however can always be beautiful, even if they are the most vilest person alive, because of their potential of becoming someone good and a Buddha. Such Metta is the purpose of Buddhism, so it is important to have compassion for everyone. It is important to take the Bodhisattva Vows and develop a dedication to caring for all beings and phenomena.

It is important to separate someone's evil we can perceive in them from the person posessing it or the phenomena that is it, and create a system to show them just how much they are Loved as who they are, and that they have beauty, even if there is a villainousness about them, because evil is not self, and that is the wisdom of Anatta. The Dharmic Teaching is perfect.
Last edited by Budai on Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Budai »

And let me reitarate with this complex subject that evil is what causes harm to others with a wicked intent, something like murder, so murder would be considered ugly. However, beauty comes in treating it all with compassion, so even the murderer feels Loved. And anyone who is a victim of a crime or say, has a scar or something, that part of them that is scarred or hurt is still beautiful, even if it still hurts, because being hurt and long lasting pain coming from someone who hurt you can make you sad, but you can still be even more beautiful than you were before because of the depth of who you are as a Buddhist. Evil comes from lust only, and that must be understood. Our bravest heroes and most beautiful Bodhisattvas have pains in them that came from their decisions to help others, and that is beautiful that they are so brave. Our pain is not ugly, and we must also understand the Truth of the Cause of Suffering and end our pain in this world with Buddhist practice and one day decide to enter Parinirvana.
Last edited by Budai on Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:32 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Aemilius
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Aemilius »

Beauty (kalyàna or subha) is the quality of being pleasing to the senses and the mind. An object, a sound or even a behaviour or an idea can be described as beautiful. The Buddha said that while personal physical beauty is a blessing, it is also true that it can lead to clinging and egoism. However, there is a beauty beyond the physical, what might be called personality and attitudinal beauty. In Buddhist psychology, certain types of thoughts like kindness, generosity and honesty are described as being beautiful (sobhana). It was this type of beauty that the Buddha had the most regard for. In the Dhammapada he said: `If someone is jealous, selfish or dishonest, they are unattractive despite their eloquence or good features. But the person who is purged of such things and is free from hatred, it is he or she who is really beautiful' (Dhp.262-3).

(from Guide to Buddhism a2z)

See also Nanda sutta, where we meet the dove-footed devis, whose beauty far surpasses that of earthly women https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Since both beauty and ugliness only occur conditionally,
as characteristics of phenomena which also only arise conditionally, nowhere is there anything to be found which is inherently beautiful or ugly.
As the saying goes, “...in the eye of the beholder”.

Beautiful/ugly is a dualistic view, a projection rooted in the ‘three poisons’ (attraction, repulsion, ignorance).

Whether I like something or not is the result of my own grasping mind. Whether I find something pleasing or not to the senses is based on my own likes and dislikes, which, ultimately, is an expression of my own ego clinging.
It has nothing to do with the object of observation itself.
The more you let go of seeing things in terms of attraction and revulsion, the more you let go of that mental behavior which binds you to samsara.

Quoting the famous Zen teaching,
On believing in mind:

The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise;

A tenth of an inch's difference,
And heaven and earth are set apart;
If you wish to see it before your own eyes,
Have no fixed thoughts either for or against it.

To set up what you like against what you dislike
This is the disease of the mind:
When the deep meaning of the Way is not understood
Peace of mind is disturbed to no purpose.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
CosmosFF
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by CosmosFF »

my view on the meditating on the body to see it as repulsive is that it is kinda stupid... shouldn't you not be repulsed by things, not just unattached? it could help with the unattaching process MAYBE but seeing something as repulsive is not the way
i get the thang about seeing beauty and ugliness as empty, but i guess buddhas just don't care, and that its not an issue of being in the warmth when its cold, or drinking when thirsty... you do not feel any incentive to look away from certain things... that wouldnt be enlighted
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Queequeg »

CosmosFF wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:59 pm my view on the meditating on the body to see it as repulsive is that it is kinda stupid... shouldn't you not be repulsed by things, not just unattached? it could help with the unattaching process MAYBE but seeing something as repulsive is not the way
i get the thang about seeing beauty and ugliness as empty, but i guess buddhas just don't care, and that its not an issue of being in the warmth when its cold, or drinking when thirsty... you do not feel any incentive to look away from certain things... that wouldnt be enlighted
Its about the right medicine for the right affliction. Meditating on the vileness of the body is for someone who is attached to their body. A person who has body image issues or suffers from misanthropy, for instance, probably should not meditate on the vileness of the body. They would be better suited to reflecting on loving kindness and affirmations of worthiness.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Aemilius
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Aemilius »

In buddhism there are the signs and marks of the great man, that are also the signs and marks that are attractive, handsome and beautiful. There is beauty of mind and beauty of form. There are the higher form realms and the higher realms in kamaloka that are said to be beautifull beyond human imagination. This should be evident from the Nanda sutta. In Mahayana we have the beauty of the Sukhavati realm of Buddha Amitabha. It is said that if you experience even a tiny portion of Sukhavati, the human realm seems like a piece of soot, or that it is just grey compared to the colors in Sukhavati. Nirvana is not empty of positive qualities, these qualities include the beautifull.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Artziebetter1
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Artziebetter1 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:25 pm Since both beauty and ugliness only occur conditionally,
as characteristics of phenomena which also only arise conditionally, nowhere is there anything to be found which is inherently beautiful or ugly.
As the saying goes, “...in the eye of the beholder”.

Beautiful/ugly is a dualistic view, a projection rooted in the ‘three poisons’ (attraction, repulsion, ignorance).

Whether I like something or not is the result of my own grasping mind. Whether I find something pleasing or not to the senses is based on my own likes and dislikes, which, ultimately, is an expression of my own ego clinging.
It has nothing to do with the object of observation itself.
The more you let go of seeing things in terms of attraction and revulsion, the more you let go of that mental behavior which binds you to samsara.

Quoting the famous Zen teaching,
On believing in mind:

The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise;

A tenth of an inch's difference,
And heaven and earth are set apart;
If you wish to see it before your own eyes,
Have no fixed thoughts either for or against it.

To set up what you like against what you dislike
This is the disease of the mind:
When the deep meaning of the Way is not understood
Peace of mind is disturbed to no purpose.
what research has established to or atleast pointed to the aesthetic relativism that you describe?platonic and augustinian ideas of aesthetic inherence are more popular in the west.
Last edited by Artziebetter1 on Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:41 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:25 pm Since both beauty and ugliness only occur conditionally,
as characteristics of phenomena which also only arise conditionally, nowhere is there anything to be found which is inherently beautiful or ugly.
As the saying goes, “...in the eye of the beholder”.
what research has established to or atleast pointed to the aesthetic relativism that you describe?platonic and augustinian ideas of aesthetic inherence are more popular in the west.
I don’t know if anyone has researched this. But it’s pretty obvious that people often disagree on what is beautiful and what is ugly.

There are studies that suggest that due to a primal desire for species survival, we see certain physical traits as appealing. But this doesn’t mean it’s not totally subjective and conditional.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

In terms of Buddhism, obviously labeling according to aversion or attraction is relative, pretty much by definition.

Arzie you need to finally just take some teachings and get out of your ruminating.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Artziebetter1
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Artziebetter1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:46 am In terms of Buddhism, obviously labeling according to aversion or attraction is relative, pretty much by definition.

Arzie you need to finally just take some teachings and get out of your ruminating.
the reason I am asking is because I have HOCD and BDD and want assurance that any form is not inherently ugly or attractive and attraction to any form is subject to change(I hope to be straight).I know the buddhist view on this,but I need some evidence its true.

it would bring me out of most of my current dukkha!
Last edited by Artziebetter1 on Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Aemilius »

There is a biological and evolutionary basis for perceiving certain things attractive. This was known to Buddhist writers like Aryadeva, who says that a male crow will see a female crow attractive. A male frog will see a female frog attractive. A male crocodile will see a female crocodile attractive.
A male walrus will perceive a female walrus attractive.
When you are born human, you receive a basic set of human qualities/attitudes. These come together with your human body and human mind. They are not you (absolutely). They are impermanent qualities. When you die and when you get old, your human body slowly disintegrates, you slowly become something else. What you once thought and experienced as "you", slowly disappears.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by seeker242 »

CosmosFF wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:59 pm my view on the meditating on the body to see it as repulsive is that it is kinda stupid... shouldn't you not be repulsed by things, not just unattached? it could help with the unattaching process MAYBE but seeing something as repulsive is not the way
That’s exactly the point, to help with the unattaching process. A “normal” view is heavily unbalanced towards beauty of the body. Looking at the other side of that, the ugly side, balances it out, to the point of neutrality. Instead of just continuing on the side of beauty only. This is especially true for one, like a monk, who is supposed to be maintaining celibacy. Looking at the ugly side is a very effective way to stop looking in such an unbalanced manner at the beauty.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

seeker242 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:36 pm
CosmosFF wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:59 pm my view on the meditating on the body to see it as repulsive is that it is kinda stupid... shouldn't you not be repulsed by things, not just unattached? it could help with the unattaching process MAYBE but seeing something as repulsive is not the way
That’s exactly the point, to help with the unattaching process. A “normal” view is heavily unbalanced towards beauty of the body. Looking at the other side of that, the ugly side, balances it out, to the point of neutrality. Instead of just continuing on the side of beauty only. This is especially true for one, like a monk, who is supposed to be maintaining celibacy. Looking at the ugly side is a very effective way to stop looking so unbalanced at the beauty.
Look at the context. As an antidote for sexual desire, a monk is told rather than to look at the outward appearance, to contemplate what is just behind the skin. Would you feel sexually attracted to a bunch of bloody body organs?
But this doesn’t really have anything to do with beauty and ugliness. Inside and outside the body are two different things. The monk might just as easily be told to think about how to fix a desktop printer instead of sex. Basically, it’s just a distraction. One is contemplating how non-sexually-arousing a heap of bloody organs is. It just happens to be that, coincidentally, it’s also the human body, so it is an effective means. It’s easy to relate the two together.

Similarly, if one is craving food, one might contemplate how food is when being digested and turns into poop. Then, one would lose their appetite.

It doesn’t mean that a person is automatically repulsed by bloody body organs or by poop. A gardener will be thrilled to have a big pile of manure to work with. A medical student will love having a cadaver to slice up.

But what is repulsive is the hypothetical thought of a particularly unsavory application. You still want to feel soft warm skin. You still want to eat food. But thinking about what you want, and applying it to something it shouldn’t be applied to, that is what is, in a sense, being contemplated.
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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:14 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:46 am In terms of Buddhism, obviously labeling according to aversion or attraction is relative, pretty much by definition.

Arzie you need to finally just take some teachings and get out of your ruminating.
the reason I am asking is because I have HOCD and BDD and want assurance that any form is not inherently ugly or attractive and attraction to any form is subject to change(I hope to be straight).I know the buddhist view on this,but I need some evidence its true.

it would bring me out of most of my current dukkha!
In practicing Buddhadharma whenever possible you find the evidence for yourself. In this case you can examine what makes up these conditions, what brought them about, do they change or not change, etc.

Really though, simply demanding proof won’t do much, you have to investigate, preferably with the help of a teacher, etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Beauty, Ugliness, and Aversion

Post by thedrizzle87 »

Beauty and ugliness are billed as being opposite ends of an aesthetic spectrum. OP mentions Buddha and asks if the Buddha saw ugliness in the same non-judgmental way as a clear blue sky. OP can look at an ugly thing and not feel disturbed/upset but nonetheless prefers to look at a beautiful thing, wondering therefore if this is the same as eating when one is hungry and if disturbances caused by ugliness are because of selfish interests. OP then asks if appreciating beauty without craving changes the way we see beauty, he seems to again agree with Buddha that clear blue skies are utterly beautiful as are anime girls.

I think it's a very important question, one that was a central part of my understanding of Siddhartha Gautama's life. Ugliness defined his renunciation, "These texts report that what led to Gautama's renunciation was the thought that his life was subject to old age, disease and death and that there might be something better (i.e. liberation, nirvana)." Thus he saw that, "the household life, this place of impurity, is narrow – the samana life is the free open air. It is not easy for a householder to lead the perfected, utterly pure and perfect holy life" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha). Seeing something as ugly and being disturbed by it is similar to being offending by it's existence as a fact of life. Just as Buddhism teaches us to gain insight and see the truth of reality, those unenlightened people who are disturbed by ugliness have something in their heads telling them not to accept ugliness in light of their own judgement of reality or sense of justice or right and wrong so as to hold onto a world which denies nirvana. If you wish to see something beautiful it should be based on it's expression of its Buddha-nature, not because it's judged against or compared to anything else, which could be ugliness but more likely is also beautiful.

Beauty itself (rather than your perception of it) is most typically a result of hunger, the mitochondria/blood/hormones/skin of a human being or similar factors in something in nature. It can also be efficiency/nuance/balance/novelty of design which forces us to think about every concept we have regarding artistic forms which I think we should accept and explore as the currency of our experience of beauty. Meditating on ugliness as well can reveal it's natural origins, and when we think of how easily body hair or fatness disrupts our experience of beauty we should consider the ways in which we see people in general as beautiful, and if our standards of beauty don't apply then perhaps they are less real than one's that are more attainable/universal. Science has taught us that beautiful things spark the pleasure centers in our brains, forcing us to focus on them in all their glorious detail so it's ironic or a dissimulation that perceiving beauty would directly enhance our experience of seeing the ugly. This doesn't mean that we would be disturbed emotionally, but to see things as they are. Those who are averse to ugliness are probably averse to what is truly beautiful, and just because they are attractive doesn't say anything at all about their ability to experience beauty even if they give it off. In my opinion, being a wise and just person who understands how everything fits in reality and how to act in a way that aligns with/brings it out it is what is beautiful and enlightened, and yet we have to make myriad choices in how we would maintain everything. Sustaining a beautiful feeling can help us be more enlightened in our actions while also being just as close to what is truly ugly. I think that anime girls would agree that justice of one's feelings is close to the beautiful feeling.

Budai, "Who someone is however can always be beautiful, even if they are the most vilest person alive, because of their potential of becoming someone good and a Buddha." I think that an enlightened person is the one who is able to bring this person out. "It is important to separate someone's evil we can perceive in them from the person posessing it or the phenomena that is it, and create a system to show them just how much they are Loved as who they are, and that they have beauty, even if there is a villainousness about them, because evil is not self, and that is the wisdom of Anatta. The Dharmic Teaching is perfect." The most evil people I have known based on villainousness were people who were seeking out things and neglecting their own great accomplishments, but felt the need to put down others who they'd judged as inferior to themselves. I think that people make hard decisions thinking it will make their lives easier, or they are so pressured by their own people that running away from it would be equivalent to letting go of everything they've known.

Aemilius, "Beauty (kalyàna or subha) is the quality of being pleasing to the senses and the mind." Also, "in Buddhist psychology, certain types of thoughts like kindness, generosity and honesty are described as being beautiful (sobhana). It was this type of beauty that the Buddha had the most regard for. In the Dhammapada [Buddha] said: `If someone is jealous, selfish or dishonest, they are unattractive despite their eloquence or good features. But the person who is purged of such things and is free from hatred, it is he or she who is really beautiful' (Dhp.262-3). It's amazing to me that seeing examples of people acting this way in spite of horrible things going on around them can be such an enlightening experience. A Buddha takes responsibility for things that go wrong knowing that he/she can lead by attuning themselves to people positive affirmations/qualities and bypassing their negativities (provided there is enough positivity there is a lot that can be overcome).

PadmavonSamba, "The more you let go of seeing things in terms of attraction and revulsion, the more you let go of that mental behavior which binds you to samsara." I think that so long as we are considering things on those terms we are relying heavily on our emotions and need to see that attraction and revulsion for the basis for most of what we feel. Something very deep I learned reading Spinoza's Ethics. One of the most profound pieces of wisdom in human history.
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