Any explanation

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

Riju wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:01 pm 4. And again who is this character Treasure Tower Buddha?
Vairocana. Also "all phenomena." Vairocana and Śākyamuni in the ratnastūpa together are "the true aspect of all phenomena." You can read Ven Nichiren explaining this in WND 1:35 and 1:88. Ven Nichiren gets this from his Tendai training. He reinterprets the two sharing the one, the two Buddhas sharing the one throne, as Śākyamuni being superior to Vairocana, and that seems to be his personal twist on the teachings of that section of the Lotus Sūtra. Perhaps stances like that are what led to the breakdown in relations between Ven Nichiren and his Tendai preceptors.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Queequeg
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:36 am
Riju wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:01 pm 4. And again who is this character Treasure Tower Buddha?
Vairocana. Also "all phenomena." Vairocana and Śākyamuni in the ratnastūpa together are "the true aspect of all phenomena." You can read Ven Nichiren explaining this in WND 1:35 and 1:88. Ven Nichiren gets this from his Tendai training. He reinterprets the two sharing the one, the two Buddhas sharing the one throne, as Śākyamuni being superior to Vairocana, and that seems to be his personal twist on the teachings of that section of the Lotus Sūtra. Perhaps stances like that are what led to the breakdown in relations between Ven Nichiren and his Tendai preceptors.
1. I don't think you can really say that Nichiren had a falling out with Tendai preceptors. His teacher was Dozen-bo at Seichoji/Kiyosumidera, a kokubunji monastery under Tendai but not a significant temple due to its remote location. He never quite had a falling out with Dozen-bo. Until Dozen-bo's death, Nichiren was loyal to him, and Dozen-bo was fond of Nichiren, though he did not accept Nichiren's teachings. As for Tendai leaders on Hiei, I don't think Nichiren was anything more than a eyebrow raising story during his life; and to an extent, Nichiren would have likely been seen sympathetically for his conservative loyalty to the imperial system as well as him basically teaching some form of "reformed" Tendai. It can be inferred from certain events that he was looked on favorably by representatives of the Imperial/Hiei vassal system. There's no record of Nichiren receiving any transmissions on Mt. Hiei. He was one of the tens of thousands of anonymous monks studying at the mountain but did not have any particular connection to any of the teachers there. To say there was a falling out would mean there was some significant relationship, which there is no evidence of. In fact, many of his students during his life and after continued to go to Mt. Hiei for training and studies. Its not until later when the Nichiren movement gained popularity among the merchant class in Kyoto and they turned up the efforts to "shakubuku" the emperor, compounded with the economic and political tension between the merchants and aristocrats (with their Tendai affiliation) that they became bitter enemies.

If anything can be pointed to as the cause of the rift, it was probably Nichirenists in Kyoto repeating Nichiren's critiques of Ennin and others as traitors to Tendai Daishi and Dengyo Daishi and calling the whole lot of the Hiei crowd a bunch of heretics because he said they purportedly asserted that the Lotus Sutra was inferior to Mikkyo.

2. Its Tathagata Prabhutaratna (多宝如来 Taho Nyorai) whose stupa emerges to witness Shakyamuni's preaching of the Lotus Sutra, not Vairochana. Nichiren claimed that Shakyamuni took the seat on the right which in the order of things means its slightly more prestigious than the left seat. This detail is not found in the Lotus Sutra. I suspect there may be some basis for this assertion in Tendai Mikkyo and the evidence for this can readily be seen in the placement of the Kongokai mandala on the East/right side of the honzon (associated with Shakyamuni) and the Taizokai on the West/left side of the honzon (associated with Prabhutaratna). Maybe we can guess that Shakyamuni takes the right seat because he is invited by Prabhutaratna to sit and deliver the teaching. The being giving the teaching would likely take the highest seat in the house to signify they are the center of attention. Vairochana of the Avatamsaka is said to be Shakyamuni's Sambhogakaya. Mahavairochana of the Esoteric texts is said to be a different Buddha, but maybe Shakyamuni in his Dharmakaya aspect.

This has little to do with Riju and his unique inspired reading of the Lotus Sutra.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

I thought his exile was accompanied by an expulsion from the temple he stayed at and the stripping of his priesthood. Is that not a thing?

So we don't know if he ever received abhiseka from the Tendai sect for sure? Basically, no one knows for sure if he was ever a Tendai priest?
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:50 pm 2. Its Tathagata Prabhutaratna (多宝如来 Taho Nyorai) whose stupa emerges to witness Shakyamuni's preaching of the Lotus Sutra, not Vairochana. Nichiren claimed that Shakyamuni took the seat on the right which in the order of things means its slightly more prestigious than the left seat. This detail is not found in the Lotus Sutra. I suspect there may be some basis for this assertion in Tendai Mikkyo and the evidence for this can readily be seen in the placement of the Kongokai mandala on the East/right side of the honzon (associated with Shakyamuni) and the Taizokai on the West/left side of the honzon (associated with Prabhutaratna).
Well, both the kongokai and taizokai are actually Vairocana's mandalas. And Ven Nichiren himself explains that Taho is Vairocana. You are correct though that this esoterica is not in the LS itself.

One more detail: I know these mandalas as reversed. From where did you set which sides each mandala was on? The mandala on the east is youthful Vairocana in the womb realm. The mandala on the west is Vairocana as final realization in the diamond realm. It should be backwards, one could argue, since this would have Śākyamuni as the youthful rather than the final realization, if this is actually the logic Ven Nichiren is using. I think the Venerable has simply made an error based on his idiosyncratic buddhic hierarchy with Śākyamuni always on top, but that is not the only way it need be.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

Lastly, there is a doctrine called "the non-duality of the two mandalas" which is complicated by having one mandala true and one comparatively less definitive. I think that's the end of objection.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Queequeg
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:56 pm I thought his exile was accompanied by an expulsion from the temple he stayed at and the stripping of his priesthood. Is that not a thing?

So we don't know if he ever received abhiseka from the Tendai sect for sure? Basically, no one knows for sure if he was ever a Tendai priest?
I think you might be applying a lens based on later models of sectarian organization.

Nichiren was trained in Tendai and declared that he was a follower of Dengyo Daishi. That is certain.

He was never a priest. He was a monk with full vows.

Sects were not the discrete, organized things we have now. And Hiei was not what we have now. A lot of what people think of as Buddhist sects is due to rules imposed by the Tokugawa government and then the Meiji reforms.

Nichiren almost certainly received Tantric initiations, but not at Hiei, at least there are no records of such. He makes reference to practices directed to Kokuzo Bosatsu when he was young. This is the Tantric honzon of the Seichoji/Kiyosumidera where he was first initiated as a novice. That temple was associated with Tendai-shu at that time. It was at some point in its history associated with Shingon-shu. It is now a associated with Nichiren shu. There are also interesting documents in which Nichiren claims to receive lineage of the Kongokai and Taizokai from Fudomyoo and Aizenmyoo respectively. These two are associated with the two respective mandalas. The presence of Fudo and Aizen on Nichiren's gohonzons is a pretty clear reference to the Ryokaimandara and Tendai mikkyo. He never discusses this, but the mikkyo aspects are indicated on the honzon. People who know mikkyo see the connection readily. This is not stuff you will find in a book. The details of this stuff are still kept secret from what I understand.
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:50 pm 2. Its Tathagata Prabhutaratna (多宝如来 Taho Nyorai) whose stupa emerges to witness Shakyamuni's preaching of the Lotus Sutra, not Vairochana. Nichiren claimed that Shakyamuni took the seat on the right which in the order of things means its slightly more prestigious than the left seat. This detail is not found in the Lotus Sutra. I suspect there may be some basis for this assertion in Tendai Mikkyo and the evidence for this can readily be seen in the placement of the Kongokai mandala on the East/right side of the honzon (associated with Shakyamuni) and the Taizokai on the West/left side of the honzon (associated with Prabhutaratna).
Well, both the kongokai and taizokai are actually Vairocana's mandalas. And Ven Nichiren himself explains that Taho is Vairocana. You are correct though that this esoterica is not in the LS itself.

One more detail: I know these mandalas as reversed. From where did you set which sides each mandala was on? The mandala on the east is youthful Vairocana in the womb realm. The mandala on the west is Vairocana as final realization in the diamond realm. It should be backwards, one could argue, since this would have Śākyamuni as the youthful rather than the final realization, if this is actually the logic Ven Nichiren is using. I think the Venerable has simply made an error based on his idiosyncratic buddhic hierarchy with Śākyamuni always on top, but that is not the only way it need be.
Taho is Vairochana from a mikkyo perspective. Its not in the Lotus Sutra.

As for reversed, I'm not sure what you have in mind. When we face the mandalas, what we see is right is on the left of the honzon that is facing us, and vice versa.

Sakyamuni is the honbutsu. He is ancient, not youthful. He is the buddha who emanates all other buddhas, according to the Lotus. But, these emanations are coequal. Its a subtle matter, but kind of important in distinguishing Tendai from Shingon.
Last edited by Queequeg on Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:18 pm Sakyamuni is the honbutsu.
And this is what I referred to as Ven Nichiren's "idiosyncratic buddhic hierarchy with Śākyamuni always on top." I don't buy it and I don't buy that the Lotus Sutra says it, but it's not a matter of life and death for me. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist. I don't need to fight about it.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:26 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:18 pm Sakyamuni is the honbutsu.
And this is what I referred to as Ven Nichiren's "idiosyncratic buddhic hierarchy with Śākyamuni always on top." I don't buy it and I don't buy that the Lotus Sutra says it, but it's not a matter of life and death for me. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist. I don't need to fight about it.
Its not Nichiren's idiosyncratic view. We're talking about Tendai, I thought? Its a Tendai teaching. One of the most central teachings. Not a fight. Just correcting what you seem to be saying.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:34 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:26 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:18 pm Sakyamuni is the honbutsu.
And this is what I referred to as Ven Nichiren's "idiosyncratic buddhic hierarchy with Śākyamuni always on top." I don't buy it and I don't buy that the Lotus Sutra says it, but it's not a matter of life and death for me. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist. I don't need to fight about it.
Its not Nichiren's idiosyncratic view. We're talking about Tendai, I thought? Its a Tendai teaching. One of the most central teachings. Not a fight. Just correcting what you seem to be saying.
I guess we are talking differently vis-a-vis Tendai. I know it as teaching that Vairocana and Śākyamuni are one and the same, share one throne, etc., as per "the perfect and secret are one" doctrine. No hierarchy of one above the other. I'm not fighting either, but we certainly have been taught two different things. I've never received esoteric teachings from Tendai, but have merely spoken to people at the former Red Maple Samgha.

I have only anecdotes from conversations. I've not read a great many books on Tendai. I am prepared to concede, though I don't want to frame it as an argument. Just two people thinking different things about a tradition neither (I think) practices.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Any explanation

Post by narhwal90 »

There are a small number of Nichiren originals with Aizen and Fudo reversed, the mandala workshop books report the cases but there is no special significance given, OTOH they spend a lot of time and effort tracking the census of venerables over time and observing additions/subtractions.

There are a number of gohonzons related to Tendai monks of Nichiren's acquaintance, some involving converstions- gohonzons forming a sort of political currency- presumably this being of greater relevance as the tradition became more widespread. There are also a few goshos sent to Tendai monks, where Nichiren takes up a more technical language- relating his practice to Tendai norms I think.
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Re: Any explanation

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Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:58 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:34 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:26 pm
And this is what I referred to as Ven Nichiren's "idiosyncratic buddhic hierarchy with Śākyamuni always on top." I don't buy it and I don't buy that the Lotus Sutra says it, but it's not a matter of life and death for me. I'm not a Nichiren Buddhist. I don't need to fight about it.
Its not Nichiren's idiosyncratic view. We're talking about Tendai, I thought? Its a Tendai teaching. One of the most central teachings. Not a fight. Just correcting what you seem to be saying.
I guess we are talking differently vis-a-vis Tendai. I know it as teaching that Vairocana and Śākyamuni are one and the same, share one throne, etc., as per "the perfect and secret are one" doctrine. No hierarchy of one above the other. I'm not fighting either, but we certainly have been taught two different things. I've never received esoteric teachings from Tendai, but have merely spoken to people at the former Red Maple Samgha.

I have only anecdotes from conversations. I've not read a great many books on Tendai. I am prepared to concede, though I don't want to frame it as an argument. Just two people thinking different things about a tradition neither (I think) practices.
I didn't say anything about comparing Shakyamuni and Vairocana or the relation between esoteric and exoteric. We were talking about who supposedly occupies the right and left seat in Prabhutaratna's Stupa. Honbutsu is terminology from Zhiyi's teachings on the Lotus Sutra. To the extent that terminology is used in Tendai mikkyo, I have no comment.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

I don't really know where the hard and fast line between secret and non-secret lies in East Asian esotericism. It seems to be mostly in the actual techniques, the mantras mudras etc. and sometimes what seems like it ought to be secret is just out in the open as, more or less, Buddhic philosophy. The abbot of Koyasan, and this is Shingon not Tendai mind you, has no problem speaking at length about the two mandalas etc. on televized documentaries and you can find Tendai venerables who are similarly open. The lines of secret/non-secret are definitely different. For instance, I don't consider myself pontificating on or divulging secrets in this thread, indeed I'm just communicating communications I've had that are not in any way formal training or anything like that.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

A good example how anecdotes like mine above can be misleading:

My boyfriend was once getting his hair cut by a Vietnamese 20-something year old who belonged to a Pure Land tradition of some sort. This was either just before or shortly into us two knowing each other. I can't remember the context, but they got talking about Buddhism, Christianity, and the afterlife, and the Buddhist said:

"We Buddhists believe in an afterlife because the Buddha always gives second chances."

Very interesting Buddhism. Interesting.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Aemilius »

Riju wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:56 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:22 pm
Brahma wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:10 am
If we take the Buddha's words as truly literal here, it may mean that He has always dwelled in the Pure Land of Holy Eagle Peak, always preaching the Law, never entering extinction, and Never Disparaging!
I notice you hedge your bets with the expression, "it may mean..."

To my mind, such caution is wise. Because the 16th Chapter seems fairly direct in stating that Shakyamuni Buddha will "never enter extinction" in the future, I have always questioned whether it can be read as implying infinite Buddhahood in the past. It does speak of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment occuring "unfathomably" long ago, but does that mean infinitely long ago? Most of the chapter seems to treat the enlightenment as an event that happened many many kalpas ago, but nevertheless at a discrete and specific point in time.

Thus, while Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment going forward may be read as an unending state, can the same be said when looking back? Did His enlightenment occur "infinitely" long ago or just "a really really long time ago?" It seems this difference would be crucial in establishing the nature of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment.

I would be interested in hearing from any Lotus Sutra scholars on this issue.

I have come to indirectly believe in following implications after meditation on Lotus sutra.

1. Buddha (and not the Guatam Buddha) has been residing On eagle peak from the previous era. And the previous era happened billions of years ago. Otherwise the chapter 15 (EMERGING FROM THE EARTH ) makes not sense. But it does not mean that that Buddha was present on eagle peak eternally.
2. There was existence before Buddha system was born . Chapter 16 " The life span of Thus come one" indicates that.
3. All the Buddhas end the journey in Adi Buddha. Lotus sutra is the accumulation of WISDOM of all Buddhas who ended their journey in Adi Buddha. Thus Lotus sutra is the mind of Adi Buddha.
4. Existence was chaotic and the result was suffering , death and old age. Buddha system (lotus sutra) with accumulated system of past eras is slowly extending its powers and freeing the existence from the sufferings, death and old age.
5. There are 32 planes of existence. Existence has now moved to earth life at 26th plane. This process of eradicating sufferings, old age and death will continue era after era on this earth and all this time various buddhas will exist on eagle peak.

"Existence has now moved to earth life at 26th plane" what is the meaning of this?

"will continue era after era on this earth";
acording to the science of geology "this earth" has come into existence gradually, it is constantly changing, unperceivably by the human standards, but still its continents and mountains are worn down and destroyed gradually, during the millions of years. There is no "this earth" nor is there "an eagle peak", that would be constant or reappearing, because the mountains are never the same.
Science says that the this solar system and its central the Sun are finally destroyed after a long period of time. What is an "era" in your thinking? Is it an era of geologic time on planet earth? Or is it a longer stretch of time involving the formation of galaxies and solar sysytems? How is it defined and measured?
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Riju »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:48 am


"Existence has now moved to earth life at 26th plane" what is the meaning of this?

"will continue era after era on this earth";
acording to the science of geology "this earth" has come into existence gradually, it is constantly changing, unperceivably by the human standards, but still its continents and mountains are worn down and destroyed gradually, during the millions of years. There is no "this earth" nor is there "an eagle peak", that would be constant or reappearing, because the mountains are never the same.
Science says that the this solar system and its central the Sun are finally destroyed after a long period of time. What is an "era" in your thinking? Is it an era of geologic time on planet earth? Or is it a longer stretch of time involving the formation of galaxies and solar sysytems? How is it defined and measured?
Era........Universe comes out of EMPTINESS and then it disappears in EMPTINESS. The total time taken is one era.
At one stage this universe appears in the form of light and stars. And then it develops planets and moons. These planets and moons develop life as we know. After a time this whole process reverses and everything disappears.


When we read chapter 15 ...Emerging from the earth. We come to know that the same thing happened in previous era. At that time also earth appeared and the Eagle peak came into existence, Buddha also came (not the Guatam Buddha). He preached Lotus sutra and our earth life got free form suffering, old age and death to some extent.

Then comes this era and the whole process is repeated. This era Guatam Buddh comes and He again preaches the Lotus sutra. The result of this is that the earth will now get free from Old age, suffering and death to some more extent as compared to last era.

In every era Lotus sutra extends its WISDOMS range and the earth and life gets the benefit. This process will continue era after era. Till the earth life gets completely free from death old age and sufferings. Then in the future era the process will extend to 27 the plane.

The life on 27th plane will be of denser physical matter and will have shorter life . say of 20 years. The population will be known as dragon life as per Guatam Buddha 's words. This is written in Lotus sutra that when 27 level will be purified a dragon girl of 8 years will also become capable of becoming a Buddha, and will be free from old age,suffering and death.
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Caoimhghín »

Capitalizing doesn't help your argument.

Earth doesn't "move through" the 32 realms. That is nowhere in the Lotus Sutra and is not an esoteric doctrine concerning it. You made it up. Ch 15 also doesn't talk about the origins of the cosmos.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Queequeg
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:50 pm You made it up.
He's inspired.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Budai
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Budai »

Well there are certainly many realms on this Earth. With the proper meditation it could be possible to figure out how many there really are. What do the Sutras or accounts of the historical Buddhas and Sutras say about this?
Last edited by Budai on Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any explanation

Post by FiveSkandhas »

The way I square Buddhist cosmology with conventional cosmology is by believing that Buddhist cosmology is upaya for helping us achieve enlightenment rather than an attempt to describe an illusion-saturated, ever changing Samsaric reality. Modern physics may be just the way the cosmos appears to humans of a certain shared state, just as to hungry Ghosts what we perceive as a river appears to be a flowing firey substance like lava.

When I talk to a Buddhist I am perfectly happy to talk about the various realms and worlds and purelands and so on. When I talk to a "normal contemporary citizen" I am perfectly happy to assume standard physics and chemistry and so forth.

But never the twain shall meet. I don't stare at my music and I don't listen to paintings. Buddhist cosmology and secular cosmology are different like art and music are different. They operate in different spheres of mind.

Also it's good to remember science is always changing but the Dharma is eternal.
:anjali:
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Redfaery
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Redfaery »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:19 pm The way I square Buddhist cosmology with conventional cosmology is by believing that Buddhist cosmology is upaya for helping us achieve enlightenment rather than an attempt to describe an illusion-saturated, ever changing Samsaric reality. Modern physics may be just the way the cosmos appears to humans of a certain shared state, just as to hungry Ghosts what we perceive as a river appears to be a flowing firey substance like lava.

When I talk to a Buddhist I am perfectly happy to talk about the various realms and worlds and purelands and so on. When I talk to a "normal contemporary citizen" I am perfectly happy to assume standard physics and chemistry and so forth.

But never the twain shall meet. I don't stare at my music and I don't listen to paintings. Buddhist cosmology and secular cosmology are different like art and music are different. They operate in different spheres of mind.

Also it's good to remember science is always changing but the Dharma is eternal.
:anjali:
:good:
NAMO SARASWATI DEVI
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - GANDHI
I am a delicate feminine flower!!!!
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Re: Any explanation

Post by Aemilius »

Dharma is that which is true. We have now, for example, found that mountains are born and they wear away, gradually. That is therefore the Dharma. It is called the outer dependent arising in the sutras, i.e. that things in the outer world arise depending on causes and conditions.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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