I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

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Crazywisdom
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm
yes I showed a sectarian stance by the opposing sectarian stance. We are discussing the relative view which is superior and nonbiased. Countering the relative with the ultimate is nonsequitur. Shakyamuni was born in Nepal to Mayadevi. The ultimate view is always a slight of hand argument to counter the relative. The question is which relative is superior.
"Superior" is also a relative judgement. It really depends on what criteria you are setting forth for "superior". Even a tenth stage bodhisattva does not have the omniscience of a samyaksambuddha. So the real question, if omniscience is one's criteria [it's mine], how will that omniscience can be achieved most expeditiously. If that is one's criteria, then most certainly the royal bodhicitta motivation is "superior."

As for the Buddha manifesting birth in Lumbini, this was not a real birth of a real person. Buddhas do not attain buddhahood in the desire realm. This is clearly stated in the Lankāvatāra and other sūtras. They attain buddhahood in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha.

Śākyamuni Buddha's twelve deeds were like a puppet show, where mud and sticks are assembled to create an illusion of kings and queens, horses and elephants, and so on. A necessary illusion, but an illusion nevertheless.
This is not correct. You are correct in identifying that superior is relative. Expiditiousness is also relative. Omniscience is also my criteria. But the question is the threshold. Assuming there is more merit in hurrying than being patient is not logical. Just because one wants something quickly does not mean that is what makes it happen. There is much merit in patience. That is Lord Jigten Sumgon point. It is not in sutras where the explantation of Buddha taking birth in the human realm for the purpose of liberating beings is mentioned. This is mentioned by the gurus of vajrayana. The Dalai Lama for example has stated in various places that the reason a bodhisattva or a buddha takes birth is not due to negative karma but do to aspiration prayers. So your comments about sutras are not persuasive.
Malcolm
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm
yes I showed a sectarian stance by the opposing sectarian stance. We are discussing the relative view which is superior and nonbiased. Countering the relative with the ultimate is nonsequitur. Shakyamuni was born in Nepal to Mayadevi. The ultimate view is always a slight of hand argument to counter the relative. The question is which relative is superior.
"Superior" is also a relative judgement. It really depends on what criteria you are setting forth for "superior". Even a tenth stage bodhisattva does not have the omniscience of a samyaksambuddha. So the real question, if omniscience is one's criteria [it's mine], how will that omniscience can be achieved most expeditiously. If that is one's criteria, then most certainly the royal bodhicitta motivation is "superior."

As for the Buddha manifesting birth in Lumbini, this was not a real birth of a real person. Buddhas do not attain buddhahood in the desire realm. This is clearly stated in the Lankāvatāra and other sūtras. They attain buddhahood in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha.

Śākyamuni Buddha's twelve deeds were like a puppet show, where mud and sticks are assembled to create an illusion of kings and queens, horses and elephants, and so on. A necessary illusion, but an illusion nevertheless.
This is not correct. You are correct in identifying that superior is relative. Expiditiousness is also relative. Omniscience is also my criteria. But the question is the threshold. Assuming there is more merit in hurrying than being patient is not logical. Just because one wants something quickly does not mean that is what makes it happen. There is much merit in patience. That is Lord Jigten Sumgon point.
As I mentioned, this is a secret mantra criteria. From the point of view of sūtra, the royal motivation is the least courageous.

It is not in sutras where the explantation of Buddha taking birth in the human realm for the purpose of liberating beings is mentioned. This is mentioned by the gurus of vajrayana.
What is the antecedent of "it" and "this" here? I don't follow you.
The Dalai Lama for example has stated in various places that the reason a bodhisattva or a buddha takes birth is not due to negative karma but do to aspiration prayers. So your comments about sutras are not persuasive.
Depends on the bodhisattva. For example, due to the negative karma of killing the thief, it is said that the sea captain briefly endured rebirth in hell. This is well known.

Of course Buddhas have no negative karma, their descent from Tuṣita up to parinirvana is just a play, a show, a display, as the Mahāyāna sūtras point out.
Crazywisdom
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:00 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 pm

"Superior" is also a relative judgement. It really depends on what criteria you are setting forth for "superior". Even a tenth stage bodhisattva does not have the omniscience of a samyaksambuddha. So the real question, if omniscience is one's criteria [it's mine], how will that omniscience can be achieved most expeditiously. If that is one's criteria, then most certainly the royal bodhicitta motivation is "superior."

As for the Buddha manifesting birth in Lumbini, this was not a real birth of a real person. Buddhas do not attain buddhahood in the desire realm. This is clearly stated in the Lankāvatāra and other sūtras. They attain buddhahood in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha.

Śākyamuni Buddha's twelve deeds were like a puppet show, where mud and sticks are assembled to create an illusion of kings and queens, horses and elephants, and so on. A necessary illusion, but an illusion nevertheless.
This is not correct. You are correct in identifying that superior is relative. Expiditiousness is also relative. Omniscience is also my criteria. But the question is the threshold. Assuming there is more merit in hurrying than being patient is not logical. Just because one wants something quickly does not mean that is what makes it happen. There is much merit in patience. That is Lord Jigten Sumgon point.
As I mentioned, this is a secret mantra criteria. From the point of view of sūtra, the royal motivation is the least courageous.

It is not in sutras where the explantation of Buddha taking birth in the human realm for the purpose of liberating beings is mentioned. This is mentioned by the gurus of vajrayana.
What is the antecedent of "it" and "this" here? I don't follow you.
The Dalai Lama for example has stated in various places that the reason a bodhisattva or a buddha takes birth is not due to negative karma but do to aspiration prayers. So your comments about sutras are not persuasive.
Depends on the bodhisattva. For example, due to the negative karma of killing the thief, it is said that the sea captain briefly endured rebirth in hell. This is well known.

Of course Buddhas have no negative karma, their descent from Tuṣita up to parinirvana is just a play, a show, a display, as the Mahāyāna sūtras point out.
you just contradicted yourself. The Dalai Lama has mentioned several times it is not karma that causes a buddha to take birth in human form but aspiration prayers. Motivation honestly is not a cause. Having the right solution is a cause.
Malcolm
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:28 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:00 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:21 pm

This is not correct. You are correct in identifying that superior is relative. Expiditiousness is also relative. Omniscience is also my criteria. But the question is the threshold. Assuming there is more merit in hurrying than being patient is not logical. Just because one wants something quickly does not mean that is what makes it happen. There is much merit in patience. That is Lord Jigten Sumgon point.
As I mentioned, this is a secret mantra criteria. From the point of view of sūtra, the royal motivation is the least courageous.

It is not in sutras where the explantation of Buddha taking birth in the human realm for the purpose of liberating beings is mentioned. This is mentioned by the gurus of vajrayana.
What is the antecedent of "it" and "this" here? I don't follow you.
The Dalai Lama for example has stated in various places that the reason a bodhisattva or a buddha takes birth is not due to negative karma but do to aspiration prayers. So your comments about sutras are not persuasive.
Depends on the bodhisattva. For example, due to the negative karma of killing the thief, it is said that the sea captain briefly endured rebirth in hell. This is well known.

Of course Buddhas have no negative karma, their descent from Tuṣita up to parinirvana is just a play, a show, a display, as the Mahāyāna sūtras point out.
you just contradicted yourself. The Dalai Lama has mentioned several times it is not karma that causes a buddha to take birth in human form but aspiration prayers. Motivation honestly is not a cause. Having the right solution is a cause.
Aspirations are not driven by motivation? If not, then what?

And no, I did not contradict myself. If so, where?
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Losal Samten
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Losal Samten »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 pmEven a tenth stage bodhisattva does not have the omniscience of a samyaksambuddha.
They're still called omniscient though iirc? What's the difference between the omniscience of one and the other?
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Varis
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Varis »

DNS wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:51 am Doesn't the bodhisattva vows include continual rebirth for helping other sentient beings?

Yes, there would be rebirth, but in higher, better births, not necessarily as a sewer rat . . .
Bodhisattvas manifest as sewer rats, and pencils, staplers, bridges, ropes, dogs, nagas, devas, etc. Basically the manifest as anything that aids sentient beings according to their needs, and that includes non-sentient objects.

They don't suffer, though to us ordinary beings it would appear as though they do.

For all you know your pet gerbil could be an emanation of a Bodhisattva.
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Matt J
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Matt J »

Where's that from?

Sometimes I wonder if everyone else is actually a Buddha who've come for me, the last of the unenlightened ones. Maybe this time? Oh look what he's off to again! :tongue:
Varis wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:40 pm Bodhisattvas manifest as sewer rats, and pencils, staplers, bridges, ropes, dogs, nagas, devas, etc. Basically the manifest as anything that aids sentient beings according to their needs, and that includes non-sentient objects.

They don't suffer, though to us ordinary beings it would appear as though they do.

For all you know your pet gerbil could be an emanation of a Bodhisattva.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
Crazywisdom
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:46 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:28 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:00 pm

As I mentioned, this is a secret mantra criteria. From the point of view of sūtra, the royal motivation is the least courageous.




What is the antecedent of "it" and "this" here? I don't follow you.



Depends on the bodhisattva. For example, due to the negative karma of killing the thief, it is said that the sea captain briefly endured rebirth in hell. This is well known.

Of course Buddhas have no negative karma, their descent from Tuṣita up to parinirvana is just a play, a show, a display, as the Mahāyāna sūtras point out.
you just contradicted yourself. The Dalai Lama has mentioned several times it is not karma that causes a buddha to take birth in human form but aspiration prayers. Motivation honestly is not a cause. Having the right solution is a cause.
Aspirations are not driven by motivation? If not, then what?

And no, I did not contradict myself. If so, where?
you said royal is least courageous

that is where

i am aware of the aspirations and motivation situation

and here is a very sharp thorn
Malcolm
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Malcolm »

Losal Samten wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 pmEven a tenth stage bodhisattva does not have the omniscience of a samyaksambuddha.
They're still called omniscient though iirc? What's the difference between the omniscience of one and the other?
A sliver of knowledge obscuration.
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Matt J
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Matt J »

I don't know about that. What I've learned from teachers sources tallies with what Malcolm says. I didn't even know the other one was an option, to be honest. The lineage prayer talks about swiftly attaining the state of Vajradhara and the Kagyu refuge prayer I've learned says we should attain realization for the benefit of all sentient beings.
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:30 pm This is clearly a sectarian stance, because Lord Jigten Sumgon asserts the latter motivation to ensure others go first is the best motivation for vajrayana. This is in Gongchig which all Kagyu sects agree with.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:02 am I don't know about that. What I've learned from teachers sources tallies with what Malcolm says. I didn't even know the other one was an option, to be honest. The lineage prayer talks about swiftly attaining the state of Vajradhara and the Kagyu refuge prayer I've learned says we should attain realization for the benefit of all sentient beings.
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:30 pm This is clearly a sectarian stance, because Lord Jigten Sumgon asserts the latter motivation to ensure others go first is the best motivation for vajrayana. This is in Gongchig which all Kagyu sects agree with.
I have heard if both ways and regard them as more or less interchangeable. If one vows to attain realization in order to lead others to realization, and that vow is phrased in terms of liberating countless beings and so on, them that necessarily implies at least giving others a boost in that general direction even if it means, or perhaps especially it means that they attain full realization (buddhahood) before you do.

I think, what’s missing in this discussion is that one’s actions, motivated by bodhicitta and the wish to benefit others, may very often trigger some spark of realization in others mainly because of their own merit, rather than because of one’s own aspirations.

In that sense, whether one is the bus driver or merely the last passenger to get on the bus is really a moot point.
“Postponing” one’s entry into final realization until all others have been liberated, or striving for full realization first, purely for the sake of others, I think these are like two lines which appear parallel, line train tracks, but actually do converge at one point at the end.
...
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Varis »

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:15 am Where's that from?

Sometimes I wonder if everyone else is actually a Buddha who've come for me, the last of the unenlightened ones. Maybe this time? Oh look what he's off to again! :tongue:
here you go:
These are “the birth-manifested-bodies” of buddhahood.1 They are the buddhas who appear in various forms, capacities, and activities in order to serve the wishes and the needs of unenlightened beings. These tulkus can appear and function in any form or manner, at any time or place. These forms might include a person who is wealthy, a person who is impoverished, a person who is healthy, a person who is sick, educated, or illiterate, gentle or wild, wrathful or peaceful—or the tulku of a buddha might even appear as an animal. Both buddhas and adepts can manifest multiple tulkus simultaneously. They can do so at any time and in any place due to their enlightened power. This includes ma-de tulkus,2 ones who manifest even while their predecessor is still alive. When I was growing up in Tibet, I knew about two tulkus who manifested themselves during the lifetime of their respective “predecessors.” One of them was Ma-de Tulku of Gyangwa from the Dzamthang Monastery of Dzika Valley; the other one was Ma-de Tulku of Shichen of Shichen Monastery in Serta. In The Mishap Lineage, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche said, “There are tulkus who incarnate before the previous incarnation has died, several months or even years earlier.”3 The purpose of these buddhas’ miraculous appearances is solely to benefit others in one way or another. Their appearances are not caused by their own karmic circumstances, but by two factors: the loving aspirations of the buddhas to serve beings who are in need of help; and the karmic receptiveness and needs of the beings themselves. All the tulkus of buddhas enjoy the same qualities:—unconditional love, omniscient wisdom, and boundless power. And they appear in various forms and activities, depending on the needs and capacities of beings. For example, Maitreya Buddha appeared to the great adept Asanga in the form of an angry, sick, and hungry dog, at a time when Asanga had lost his inspiration. The suffering dog invoked great compassion and unconditional love in Asanga. Instantly, Asanga was able to see the dog as Maitreya Buddha, and he received teachings and blessings from him. Asanga became one of the greatest mahayana masters.4 Tulkus of buddhas always embody the three “buddha-bodies,” although ordinary beings can see them only as humans. The first body is their primordial purity and openness nature: their ultimate-body. Their ever-present innate clarity and enlightened qualities are the second body, the enjoyment-body. Their appearance in an ordinary form in order to benefit beings is the third, the manifested-body.
Thondup, Tulku. Incarnation: The History and Mysticism of the Tulku Tradition of Tibet (p. 19-20). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.
If you'd like a source on the non-sentient objects part please let me know, and I'll find a source for you (or maybe a kind benefactor will do so before I am able to :D).
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:02 am I don't know about that. What I've learned from teachers sources tallies with what Malcolm says. I didn't even know the other one was an option, to be honest. The lineage prayer talks about swiftly attaining the state of Vajradhara and the Kagyu refuge prayer I've learned says we should attain realization for the benefit of all sentient beings.
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:30 pm This is clearly a sectarian stance, because Lord Jigten Sumgon asserts the latter motivation to ensure others go first is the best motivation for vajrayana. This is in Gongchig which all Kagyu sects agree with.
Gonchig buddy. I did not make this up. We spent a lot of time on this point. It is forever etched in my mind. Go ask your lama.. i just do not have books anymore
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Crazywisdom
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Anyway it does not matter; vajrayana is for at most 16 lives. For me 64 bc I suck.
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by GrapeLover »

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:15 am Where's that from?

Sometimes I wonder if everyone else is actually a Buddha who've come for me, the last of the unenlightened ones. Maybe this time? Oh look what he's off to again! :tongue:
Varis wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:40 pm Bodhisattvas manifest as sewer rats, and pencils, staplers, bridges, ropes, dogs, nagas, devas, etc. Basically the manifest as anything that aids sentient beings according to their needs, and that includes non-sentient objects.

They don't suffer, though to us ordinary beings it would appear as though they do.

For all you know your pet gerbil could be an emanation of a Bodhisattva.
For non-sentient, Vimalakirti Sutra on bodhisattvas:
“They may become suns or moons,
Indras, Brahmās, or lords of creatures;
They may become fire or water
Or earth or wind.”

And generally if you search “variegated nirmanakaya” you’ll find related sources for Buddhas emanating non-sentient objects

“These can appear in an incredible variety of forms, including bridges or ships” from TUR’s “Repeating the Words of the Buddha”
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:20 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:46 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:28 pm

you just contradicted yourself. The Dalai Lama has mentioned several times it is not karma that causes a buddha to take birth in human form but aspiration prayers. Motivation honestly is not a cause. Having the right solution is a cause.
Aspirations are not driven by motivation? If not, then what?

And no, I did not contradict myself. If so, where?
you said royal is least courageous

that is where

i am aware of the aspirations and motivation situation

and here is a very sharp thorn
Yes, according to sutra. It is still the preferred bodhicitta motivation in vajrayana. Ymmv.
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Matt J
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Matt J »

Not saying you made it up, but to assert that this is a universal Kagyu position is not correct. It is not the Catholic church.
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:11 am Gonchig buddy. I did not make this up. We spent a lot of time on this point. It is forever etched in my mind. Go ask your lama.. i just do not have books anymore
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
Crazywisdom
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:38 pm Not saying you made it up, but to assert that this is a universal Kagyu position is not correct. It is not the Catholic church.
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:11 am Gonchig buddy. I did not make this up. We spent a lot of time on this point. It is forever etched in my mind. Go ask your lama.. i just do not have books anymore
All Kagyu sects approve the vajra verses in Gongchig. This is well known.
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Matt J
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Matt J »

Interesting. I don't really know what to make of it.
GrapeLover wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:44 am
For non-sentient, Vimalakirti Sutra on bodhisattvas:
“They may become suns or moons,
Indras, Brahmās, or lords of creatures;
They may become fire or water
Or earth or wind.”

And generally if you search “variegated nirmanakaya” you’ll find related sources for Buddhas emanating non-sentient objects

“These can appear in an incredible variety of forms, including bridges or ships” from TUR’s “Repeating the Words of the Buddha”
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?

Post by Sennin »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:23 am Anyway it does not matter; vajrayana is for at most 16 lives. For me 64 bc I suck.
Sakya Pandita says:
  • If one who possesses the three vows
    understands the profound points of the two stages,
    it is said that in this life, the bardo
    or within sixteen lifetimes,
    that one will accomplish perfect buddhahood.
;)
Observe the difference between the Lord of All Victors, Padmasambhava, and the mahasiddhas of India and Tibet.
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