Historically, we know that the Mahayana sutra's are later creations attributed to the Buddha. I'd assume that even Buddhists in ancient times knew this since the Mahayana sutra's are full of fantastical tales - They must have known they were allegorical.
What I'm interested in though is whether the Mahayana Sutras develop on the earlier sutra's; Whether they are consistent with the early sutra's and if not, in which ways do they differ.
Also, are they consistent? do they lead anywhere? Is there a logical flow? If not, how are the differences interpreted? Should some sutra's be discarded as not being in keeping with the heart of buddhism? Are there contradictory teachings?
Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
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nichiren-123
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:07 pm
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
1. You assume that the Mahayana sutras are later compositions. This is not certain.
2. Your question is too broad. Briefly, though - there is consistency. Mahayana generally highlight the bodhisattva path rather than the sravaka. Different capacities and wisdoms are developed on the bodhisattva path. If you look carefully, you will see many echoes and parallels between Mahayana and Agama/Nikaya.
It helps to have someone guide you through the studies.
2. Your question is too broad. Briefly, though - there is consistency. Mahayana generally highlight the bodhisattva path rather than the sravaka. Different capacities and wisdoms are developed on the bodhisattva path. If you look carefully, you will see many echoes and parallels between Mahayana and Agama/Nikaya.
It helps to have someone guide you through the studies.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
No, we do not know this. Sutras are not books.nichiren-123 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:41 pm Historically, we know that the Mahayana sutra's are later creations attributed to the Buddha.
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
Sutras are Buddha .Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:21 pmNo, we do not know this. Sutras are not books.nichiren-123 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:41 pm Historically, we know that the Mahayana sutra's are later creations attributed to the Buddha.
Remember, Buddha can manifest as a bridge or a boat..for real..
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
I found it was useful to begin reading them myself and if necessary, form opinions. It might be that going anywhere, continuity, discard vs grasp are the wrong questions to ask. Commentaries on sutras are also easily found, sometimes as prefaces to particular translations.
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Kim O'Hara
- Former staff member
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- Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
- Location: North Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
Just picking up on the word I highlighted - our boundaries between true and false, between history and myth, and between real and imaginary, are quite different from the way truth was conceived in the Buddha's time and for a long time afterwards. Reading the sutras as though they were news reports would be confusing, at best.nichiren-123 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:41 pm Historically, we know that the Mahayana sutra's are later creations attributed to the Buddha. I'd assume that even Buddhists in ancient times knew this since the Mahayana sutra's are full of fantastical tales - They must have known they were allegorical.
Kim
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
'Fantastical tales' are not Mahayana novelties, some you can find already in the Nikayas/Agamas (e.g. The Buddha’s Fire Miracles, Levitation in Early Buddhist Discourse, Miracle-working Nuns in the Ekottarika-ågama), and then a great number in later texts (e.g. Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, Cariyapitaka).nichiren-123 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:41 pmHistorically, we know that the Mahayana sutra's are later creations attributed to the Buddha. I'd assume that even Buddhists in ancient times knew this since the Mahayana sutra's are full of fantastical tales - They must have known they were allegorical.
Such a comparison would require first identifying specific texts that are compared. See e.g. Mahāyāna in the Ekottarika-āgama.What I'm interested in though is whether the Mahayana Sutras develop on the earlier sutra's; Whether they are consistent with the early sutra's and if not, in which ways do they differ.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
It was malcolm that helped me realize that Sutras are Buddha..i owe so much to that man...some of the stuff he said years ago finally made sense to me.
All i want for christmas is for
Malcolm to turn into the 
grand daddy of all Nichiren Practitioners... 
All i want for christmas is for
Malcolm to turn into the grand daddy of all Nichiren Practitioners... Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
Nah, it wil never happen. In Dzogchen, the result does not arise from a cause; the intimate instruction does not depend on a scripture; and buddhahood does not arise from mind. From a Nicherin point of view I am much worse than a Zen, Pure Land, or Shingon heretic.
Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
yeah but there is still hope for yaMalcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:42 pmNah, it wil never happen. In Dzogchen, the result does not arise from a cause; the intimate instruction does not depend on a scripture; and buddhahood does not arise from mind. From a Nicherin point of view I am much worse than a Zen, Pure Land, or Shingon heretic.
From a Nicherin point of view I am much worse than a Zen, Pure Land, or Shingon heretic.
* a loud howl of laughter emanates from room *
* wife rushes in *
* picks d off floor and has nitro heart meds on the ready *
yer alright M and thanks for everything...this place was not the same when you left...You Da Man !!!