emptiness is pure

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Malcolm
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Malcolm »

akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:50 pm
In common Mahāyāna, like Hinayāna schools, relatively speaking, phenomena, other than path dharmas, are still compounded, suffering, and not-self, and hence impure. Their ultimate nature, emptiness, is pure.

In uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra, phenomena are rendered pure through special methods which change our attitude towards phenomena.
How can something be impure if its ultimate nature is pure?
That's the point. However, we still regard phenomena as impure and so on. That's why we bathe and wash our clothes.
akuppa
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by akuppa »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:31 pm
akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:50 pm
In common Mahāyāna, like Hinayāna schools, relatively speaking, phenomena, other than path dharmas, are still compounded, suffering, and not-self, and hence impure. Their ultimate nature, emptiness, is pure.

In uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra, phenomena are rendered pure through special methods which change our attitude towards phenomena.
How can something be impure if its ultimate nature is pure?
That's the point. However, we still regard phenomena as impure and so on. That's why we bathe and wash our clothes.
Ok, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.
Malcolm
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Malcolm »

akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:31 pm
akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:56 pm

How can something be impure if its ultimate nature is pure?
That's the point. However, we still regard phenomena as impure and so on. That's why we bathe and wash our clothes.
Ok, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.
Because emptiness is beyond defilement and purification, the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras term emptiness "originally pure" or "pure from the start."
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Grigoris
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Grigoris »

akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:43 pmOk, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.
If you read the quote properly you will see it says "no Defilement no Purity".

It doesn't say phenomena are pure, it says they are beyond pure and impure.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Minobu
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Minobu »

akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:31 pm
akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:56 pm

How can something be impure if its ultimate nature is pure?
That's the point. However, we still regard phenomena as impure and so on. That's why we bathe and wash our clothes.
Ok, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.
empty is not called pure.
thats an incorrect view.

what is this pure then? what is the nature of this pure?
Plain and simple...Empty !.

this understanding that writes out a statement " empty is pure " is in itself empty as well.

trying to define empty is well you can't..and attributing some sublime concept of mind as empty...yes but it does not mean empty is pure and go down that rabbit hole.
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Minobu
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:00 pm
akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:31 pm

That's the point. However, we still regard phenomena as impure and so on. That's why we bathe and wash our clothes.
Ok, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.
Because emptiness is beyond defilement and purification, the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras term emptiness "originally pure" or "pure from the start."
what exactly are you on about malcolm? you are trying to define emptiness as a thing ...a pure mind philosophical argument of what mind is...oh it's emptiness... No malcolm...

talk about mind and pure Rigpa states and such but don't say empty is pure ...or empty can't be impure cause it's pure...
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Minobu
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Minobu »

are you talking about a dzogchen thing?
cause when you use what Lord Nargarjuna left us and misappropriate it to make bolster some view , thats wrong.

If one sees what Lord Nargajuna left us and decided to define as something he did not...and misappropriate it then it's quite serious if that person says they are a teacher...

I'm more than willing to learn what you are on about and everything here i say with respect.
Malcolm
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:00 pm
akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:43 pm

Ok, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.
Because emptiness is beyond defilement and purification, the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras term emptiness "originally pure" or "pure from the start."
what exactly are you on about malcolm? you are trying to define emptiness as a thing ...a pure mind philosophical argument of what mind is...oh it's emptiness... No malcolm...

talk about mind and pure Rigpa states and such but don't say empty is pure ...or empty can't be impure cause it's pure...
Would you like a quote from the Buddha on this point? Correct emptiness is not a thing, which is another reason it is pure. All things are pure because all things are empty. Even emptiness is empty, therefore it is also pure from the beginning.
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Minobu
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:58 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:00 pm

Because emptiness is beyond defilement and purification, the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras term emptiness "originally pure" or "pure from the start."
what exactly are you on about malcolm? you are trying to define emptiness as a thing ...a pure mind philosophical argument of what mind is...oh it's emptiness... No malcolm...

talk about mind and pure Rigpa states and such but don't say empty is pure ...or empty can't be impure cause it's pure...
Would you like a quote from the Buddha on this point? Correct emptiness is not a thing, which is another reason it is pure. All things are pure because all things are empty. Even emptiness is empty, therefore it is also pure from the beginning.
if it is not a thing , and it is a view of the nature of all phenomenon , then why say it is something ..anything...

Now if you say it is pure you are describing it as a thing..

we could end this if you could show me where Lord Nagarjuna said emptiness is pure and teach me why and how He said it.
please , you have had the ability to shock me out of some weird things by teaching me facts.
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Minobu
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Minobu »

p.s. sometimes it takes years
muni
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by muni »

To define emptiness, could be an habitual trap because that is what the subjective mind does, defining objects. There is nothing wrong with explanation helping for liberation, in that way there can be some explanation "about" emptiness. However it should not merely lead to subject knowing "about" object.
Emptiness is tool only, it has furthermore no any existence. And so are all Dharma words/appearances, they are not having their own life, they are great tools to help to liberate from grasping, not to grasp to them as well.

In death proces no words can go with us, we can only do our best to purify mind now, not appearances.

We need guidance and do the offered practices.

ps Malcolm posted some jewels in that topic. viewtopic.php?t=19600
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
Malcolm
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:23 pm
empty is not called pure.
The Samadhirāja Sūtra states:

Youth, bodhisattva mahāsattvas know well that all phenomena are insubstantial, devoid of inherent existence, devoid of signs, devoid of characteristics, nonarising, unceasing, devoid of syllables, empty, peace from the beginning, and utterly pure by nature.

The Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines:

Since inner emptiness is utterly pure, up the utterly purity of the emptiness of the inherent existence of the absence of entities, omniscience is utterly pure.

M
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by LastLegend »

The issue is not pure or bliss or different states of manifestations. Different manifestations of states can only be done by almost a complete Buddha. But to get to the final result.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:39 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:23 pm
empty is not called pure.
The Samadhirāja Sūtra states:

Youth, bodhisattva mahāsattvas know well that all phenomena are insubstantial, devoid of inherent existence, devoid of signs, devoid of characteristics, nonarising, unceasing, devoid of syllables, empty, peace from the beginning, and utterly pure by nature.

The Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines:

Since inner emptiness is utterly pure, up the utterly purity of the emptiness of the inherent existence of the absence of entities, omniscience is utterly pure.

M

inner emptiness ? this is something other than sunyata...

I don't think this is in line with Lord Nagarjuna's teaching on Sunyata.
I asked for where Lord Nagarjuna says it's pure..you give me something that is talking about inner emptiness...a whole other ball of wax that when used in your manner actually harms the simple intent of Lord Nagarjuna teaching.


this could be where western influence bests itself with propriety in discerning what is actually going on...Are you misappropriate Lord Nagarjuna's teaching to bolster something you are on about ?.

you yourself taught me about misappropriation in the name of Krishna ,and Buddha.

I am not knocking or showing disrespect ...but you are confusing totally the original Sunyata teaching...

now show me where Lord Nagarjuna states Emptiness has the nature of being pure...because that is what is meant by when you say emptiness is pure .

like i was taught ..the worse Karma one can accumulate is getting Sunyata wrong and then teaching the wrong view.


recently in another post you used this as a response
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

i'm not even coming close to doing that...this is serious...for you and others who respect everything you say...
akuppa
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by akuppa »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:13 pm
akuppa wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:43 pmOk, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.
If you read the quote properly you will see it says "no Defilement no Purity".

It doesn't say phenomena are pure, it says they are beyond pure and impure.
I agree with you. And yet in some Sutras, emptiness is called pure. This thread is to explore why.

Besides, I have tried to find some good source, either Sutra or Sastra or commentary, for the fact that emptiness is unconditioned, and I can't find anything from a Madhyamaka pov. But there is this from another thread: viewtopic.php?t=1330

Apart from the conditioned, there is no unconditioned. Why? Because the true nature of conditioned dharmas is the unconditioned.

From the Mahaprajnaparamitasastra. But it does not make much sense because reading around that section it makes clear that both conditioned and unconditioned are empty and emptiness is beyond them. E.g pg. 1716 here: https://archive.org/stream/MahaPrajnapa ... /mode/2up

(my paraphrase)

If such emptiness existed it would be either conditioned or unconditioned. Conditioned has been refuted with regard to the emptiness of the conditioned and likewise with the unconditioned.
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Queequeg »

What does it mean to be Pure? Without defilements, impurities, contaminants, etc.

When we say something is empty, we mean it is compounded - ie. it is empty of intrinsic value; it is an incident (which include our psychological involvement with the proposed entity) that we falsely ascribe an entity to. But there are no entities from the beginning - just our ascribing of distinctions. The elements composing this incident are themselves empty. Anything we can say about any thing, or its constituents, is a discernment in our mind; ie. projections. There is nothing we can say about objects projected upon - because they don't exist. They are themselves functions of the distinction of self and object...

This analysis goes on and on until one is ready to give up. This analysis always defeats any notion we have.

There is nothing to say beyond our conjecture. We can, however, intuit that its not nothing... we call it pure because what else is there to say about it? It sheds any projections we put on it with bewildering ease... and yet its not nothing... it has no features... yet not nothing...

What is that?

That's what sitting on the cushion is for.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Malcolm
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:02 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:39 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:23 pm
empty is not called pure.
The Samadhirāja Sūtra states:

Youth, bodhisattva mahāsattvas know well that all phenomena are insubstantial, devoid of inherent existence, devoid of signs, devoid of characteristics, nonarising, unceasing, devoid of syllables, empty, peace from the beginning, and utterly pure by nature.

The Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines:

Since inner emptiness is utterly pure, up the utterly purity of the emptiness of the inherent existence of the absence of entities, omniscience is utterly pure.

M

inner emptiness ? this is something other than sunyata...

I don't think this is in line with Lord Nagarjuna's teaching on Sunyata.
Interesting perspective. Why you think that Nāgārjuna's teachings on emptiness supercede important and definitive Mahāyāna sūtras, especially the Prajñāpāramitā, which is the definitive set of sūtras on emptiness?
akuppa
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by akuppa »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:01 pm What does it mean to be Pure? Without defilements, impurities, contaminants, etc.

When we say something is empty, we mean it is compounded - ie. it is empty of intrinsic value; it is an incident (which include our psychological involvement with the proposed entity) that we falsely ascribe an entity to. But there are no entities from the beginning - just our ascribing of distinctions. The elements composing this incident are themselves empty. Anything we can say about any thing, or its constituents, is a discernment in our mind; ie. projections. There is nothing we can say about objects projected upon - because they don't exist. They are themselves functions of the distinction of self and object...

This analysis goes on and on until one is ready to give up. This analysis always defeats any notion we have.

There is nothing to say beyond our conjecture. We can, however, intuit that its not nothing... we call it pure because what else is there to say about it? It sheds any projections we put on it with bewildering ease... and yet its not nothing... it has no features... yet not nothing...

What is that?

That's what sitting on the cushion is for.
I agree, and if the Prajnaparamita Sutras call what is empty pure, then it is enough for me.

So unless I can find some source for empty = unconditioned, my original idea was wrong.
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Ayu »

akuppa wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:57 pm ...
So unless I can find some source for empty = unconditioned, my original idea was wrong.
It's a common spontaneous misconception. If we hear from emptiness and ponder about it for the first time, we equal it to being unconditioned.
Because on this new adventure travel we assume the goal must be something unconditioned. :lol: We are conditioned to that idea.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
Malcolm
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Re: emptiness is pure

Post by Malcolm »

akuppa wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:57 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:01 pm What does it mean to be Pure? Without defilements, impurities, contaminants, etc.

When we say something is empty, we mean it is compounded - ie. it is empty of intrinsic value; it is an incident (which include our psychological involvement with the proposed entity) that we falsely ascribe an entity to. But there are no entities from the beginning - just our ascribing of distinctions. The elements composing this incident are themselves empty. Anything we can say about any thing, or its constituents, is a discernment in our mind; ie. projections. There is nothing we can say about objects projected upon - because they don't exist. They are themselves functions of the distinction of self and object...

This analysis goes on and on until one is ready to give up. This analysis always defeats any notion we have.

There is nothing to say beyond our conjecture. We can, however, intuit that its not nothing... we call it pure because what else is there to say about it? It sheds any projections we put on it with bewildering ease... and yet its not nothing... it has no features... yet not nothing...

What is that?

That's what sitting on the cushion is for.
I agree, and if the Prajnaparamita Sutras call what is empty pure, then it is enough for me.

So unless I can find some source for empty = unconditioned, my original idea was wrong.
Emptiness = uncompounded. Citations can be supplied. But I wouldn't make too much of it.
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