Age of Mahayana Schools

[Astus]

Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to rush.

That does not seem to agree with the teachings.

'Take food as medicine, in the right amount,
Without attachment, without hatefulness:
Don’t eat for vanity, for pride or ego’s sake,
Eat only for your body’s sustenance.'
(Letter to a Friend by Nagarjuna, v 38, tr Padmakara Translation Group)

'Buddhas told those with desire
That food, clothes and dwellings are all
To be avoided and to remain
Close to their spiritual guides.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas by Aryadeva, v 138, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Most sentient beings are greedy for tastes; for the sake of food, they commit vile actions and are born in the hells. But those who {know the Dharma} are contented, not greedy, free from longing; they do not bow down to the sense of taste, but are contented and can be nourished even with very low-quality food.'
(Multitude of Jewels Sutra (Ratnarāśisūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 127, tr Charles Goodman)

See also: The concept of revulsion toward food

Vajrayana is based on this attitude. There is the deity yoga you mentioned. At this stage one conceptually views the pie as the consort.

How does that help in not feeding one of the root causes of samsara?

At the completion stage one has directed one's essential elements into the central channel so one is fully dedicated to bliss. Seeing the empty nature of bliss becomes very clear and unborn enlightment itself, one eats the pie or does whatever is being offered or presented as a spontaneous benefit.

If one knows that the object of desire is unreal, there is no more basis for desire to arise, just as one may crave, vie, and even kill for money, but not for fake bills. If the method given is to see that whatever enjoyment may come is empty, how is that any different from what is taught in the sutras?

[Astus]

Please return to the topic. Thanks!

It might be split from around here or here.

[Natan]

Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to rush.

That does not seem to agree with the teachings.

'Take food as medicine, in the right amount,
Without attachment, without hatefulness:
Don’t eat for vanity, for pride or ego’s sake,
Eat only for your body’s sustenance.'
(Letter to a Friend by Nagarjuna, v 38, tr Padmakara Translation Group)

'Buddhas told those with desire
That food, clothes and dwellings are all
To be avoided and to remain
Close to their spiritual guides.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas by Aryadeva, v 138, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Most sentient beings are greedy for tastes; for the sake of food, they commit vile actions and are born in the hells. But those who {know the Dharma} are contented, not greedy, free from longing; they do not bow down to the sense of taste, but are contented and can be nourished even with very low-quality food.'
(Multitude of Jewels Sutra (Ratnarāśisūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 127, tr Charles Goodman)

See also: The concept of revulsion toward food

Vajrayana is based on this attitude. There is the deity yoga you mentioned. At this stage one conceptually views the pie as the consort.

How does that help in not feeding one of the root causes of samsara?

At the completion stage one has directed one's essential elements into the central channel so one is fully dedicated to bliss. Seeing the empty nature of bliss becomes very clear and unborn enlightment itself, one eats the pie or does whatever is being offered or presented as a spontaneous benefit.

If one knows that the object of desire is unreal, there is no more basis for desire to arise, just as one may crave, vie, and even kill for money, but not for fake bills. If the method given is to see that whatever enjoyment may come is empty, how is that any different from what is taught in the sutras?

This Aryadeva thing is Gelukpa, they do that. Kagyu others have a ganapuja where we enjoy food; It is the most meritorious puja there is. What you are missing is this avoidance attitude is for monks. Further, it is for monks who are not working on completion stage. One is not at all greedy at the point of completion stage.

It helps in not feeding the root cause of samsara because samsara has then been uprooted.

It is not different from what is taught in the sutras. It is the same wisdom, the difference is the average guy will never accomplish it without tantra.

[Natan]

Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to rush.

That does not seem to agree with the teachings.

'Take food as medicine, in the right amount,
Without attachment, without hatefulness:
Don’t eat for vanity, for pride or ego’s sake,
Eat only for your body’s sustenance.'
(Letter to a Friend by Nagarjuna, v 38, tr Padmakara Translation Group)

'Buddhas told those with desire
That food, clothes and dwellings are all
To be avoided and to remain
Close to their spiritual guides.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas by Aryadeva, v 138, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Most sentient beings are greedy for tastes; for the sake of food, they commit vile actions and are born in the hells. But those who {know the Dharma} are contented, not greedy, free from longing; they do not bow down to the sense of taste, but are contented and can be nourished even with very low-quality food.'
(Multitude of Jewels Sutra (Ratnarāśisūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 127, tr Charles Goodman)

See also: The concept of revulsion toward food

Vajrayana is based on this attitude. There is the deity yoga you mentioned. At this stage one conceptually views the pie as the consort.

How does that help in not feeding one of the root causes of samsara?

At the completion stage one has directed one's essential elements into the central channel so one is fully dedicated to bliss. Seeing the empty nature of bliss becomes very clear and unborn enlightment itself, one eats the pie or does whatever is being offered or presented as a spontaneous benefit.

If one knows that the object of desire is unreal, there is no more basis for desire to arise, just as one may crave, vie, and even kill for money, but not for fake bills. If the method given is to see that whatever enjoyment may come is empty, how is that any different from what is taught in the sutras?

Here is sort of a clue: you don´t seem to be able to understand the vajrayana method, because you keep referencing back to the path of renunciation and hinayana methods. Vajrayana in its true from, not the Gelukpa monastically sanitized way, takes buddhahood as the path and not just allows but enjoys all sense objects as the dakini. The quality of Buddhood is fearlessness. That is what this is about.

[Natan]

Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to rush.

That does not seem to agree with the teachings.

'Take food as medicine, in the right amount,
Without attachment, without hatefulness:
Don’t eat for vanity, for pride or ego’s sake,
Eat only for your body’s sustenance.'
(Letter to a Friend by Nagarjuna, v 38, tr Padmakara Translation Group)

'Buddhas told those with desire
That food, clothes and dwellings are all
To be avoided and to remain
Close to their spiritual guides.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas by Aryadeva, v 138, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Most sentient beings are greedy for tastes; for the sake of food, they commit vile actions and are born in the hells. But those who {know the Dharma} are contented, not greedy, free from longing; they do not bow down to the sense of taste, but are contented and can be nourished even with very low-quality food.'
(Multitude of Jewels Sutra (Ratnarāśisūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 127, tr Charles Goodman)

See also: The concept of revulsion toward food

Vajrayana is based on this attitude. There is the deity yoga you mentioned. At this stage one conceptually views the pie as the consort.

How does that help in not feeding one of the root causes of samsara?

At the completion stage one has directed one's essential elements into the central channel so one is fully dedicated to bliss. Seeing the empty nature of bliss becomes very clear and unborn enlightment itself, one eats the pie or does whatever is being offered or presented as a spontaneous benefit.

If one knows that the object of desire is unreal, there is no more basis for desire to arise, just as one may crave, vie, and even kill for money, but not for fake bills. If the method given is to see that whatever enjoyment may come is empty, how is that any different from what is taught in the sutras?

\Oh the other thing Astus is we are not just seeing a thing as empty, we are liberated from emotions and things are empty. The buddhanature is not just emptiness. It has energy. Sutra never tells you this clearly.

[Malcolm]

In sūtra there is no antidotal method of conceiving the appearance of things as pure which are typically conceived by ordinary sentient being as impure. Emptiness, in sutra, is provided as cure for this, in terms of nature, but not in terms of appearance. Vajrayāna address both nature and appearance; sūtra only addresses nature, not appearance.

One sees a tasty looking apple pie. How not to fall into craving? For instance, the Vitakkasanthana Sutta gives five (progressive) methods: pay attention to something else (that is conducive to good thoughts), consider the drawbacks of craving, forget and pay no attention to it, relax the mental fabrications/concoctions about it, subdue the thoughts by force. Or one can think of it as something disgusting, something undesirable; or as something insubstantial, meaningless, and worthless. How would Vajrayana address this situation? If one thinks one is a buddha one can just give in to any impulse?

As I said, these are all based on renunciation of sense objects since one has ordinary concepts concerning them.

With respect to "giving into impulses" Vajrayāna there is eating yoga, sleeping yoga, bathing yoga, yoga for engaging in sexual intercourse is one is a lay person, etc., everything to transform ordinary daily conduct and bring it into the path by replacing impure conceptuality with pure conceptuality.

When one is on an island composed entirely of gold, one will have attachment to no specific part of it, one will have no discrimination towards anything on it, and thereby, one is freed of clinging.

The distinction between the the common and uncommon Mahāyāna is principally the difference between method, the latter being more efficacious and more rapid. One does not merely regard oneself as buddhanatured, causally, one regards oneself as a buddha from the outset of entering the path. One does not regard one's teacher as being "like a buddha," one regards one's master as an actual buddha right from the outset and so on, based on the special methods of abhiṣeka, sadhana, and so forth.

How does it make it more efficacious to think of oneself being a buddha, instead of not to think of oneself as anything at all?

We already think of ourselves, this is a given. In other words, in just the same way as fire is used to put out fire, or water is used to draw water out of the ear, the creation stage uses conceptuality to overcome conceptuality. Hence it is more profound than methods which try to suppress or eliminate conceptuality, such as those you mention above.

[Malcolm]

Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to rush.

That does not seem to agree with the teachings.

'Take food as medicine, in the right amount,
Without attachment, without hatefulness:
Don’t eat for vanity, for pride or ego’s sake,
Eat only for your body’s sustenance.'
(Letter to a Friend by Nagarjuna, v 38, tr Padmakara Translation Group)

'Buddhas told those with desire
That food, clothes and dwellings are all
To be avoided and to remain
Close to their spiritual guides.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas by Aryadeva, v 138, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Most sentient beings are greedy for tastes; for the sake of food, they commit vile actions and are born in the hells. But those who {know the Dharma} are contented, not greedy, free from longing; they do not bow down to the sense of taste, but are contented and can be nourished even with very low-quality food.'
(Multitude of Jewels Sutra (Ratnarāśisūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 127, tr Charles Goodman)

See also: The concept of revulsion toward food

These above teachings are consistent with the path of renunciation. However, they are contradicted by the higher teachings of Vajrayāna, the path of transfomation, and the citations illustrating this point have already been provided above, so there is no need to repeat them here.

As also mentioned above, the Buddha's teachings of sūtra are for those with a) less affliction, and b) less capability. But contrast, Vajrayāna teachings are designed for those with a) greater affliction, and b) greater capabilities.

Therefore, can either accept the Buddha's teachings in the tantras, in which case, one has no choice but to become a Vajrayāna practitioner; but failing that, if one cannot generate faith in these teachings, then leave them aside, but do not criticize them, because there in lies the fault of criticizing the Dharma.

[Grigoris]

Skilful qualities (kusala dharma) are those that are free from craving, anger, and delusion (see: MN 9). What is it that Vajrayana considers skilful that is rooted in the three poisons?

None. But Vajrayana also does not believe in the efficacy of renunciation (or more to the point: it does not consider it the most efficient manner to achieve liberation). That puts it directly at odds with the Sravakayana.

[Sādhaka]

...But Vajrayana also does not believe in the efficacy of renunciation (or more to the point: it does not consider it the most efficient manner to achieve liberation). That puts it directly at odds with the Sravakayana.

From another thread:

The offtime yogas of sleeping, waking, bathing, clothing, eating, passion (for lay people), and so on meant to be practiced by beginners, from day one.

Perhaps; but these things are rarely explained it seems.

And in The Great Chariot, Longchenpa wrote that using sense pleasures on the path is for the somewhat experienced, otherwise there’s an danger of falling into the hells.

Therefore I doubt that someone who happens to attend an initiation for the first time and who’s never done any retreat, nor Rushen’s, has no skill in pranayama or trul khor, etc. can come right out the gate after their first empowerment using these things skillfully.

I’m all for these methods; it’s just that without some control and skill, someone could easily, say, become an alcoholic or lose ojas from sexual excesses (especially if they’re vegan, as many westerners are nowadays), thinking that they’re taking pleasures onto the path in a skillful way; when they’re in fact only deluding themselves.

[Natan]

...But Vajrayana also does not believe in the efficacy of renunciation (or more to the point: it does not consider it the most efficient manner to achieve liberation). That puts it directly at odds with the Sravakayana.

From another thread:

The offtime yogas of sleeping, waking, bathing, clothing, eating, passion (for lay people), and so on meant to be practiced by beginners, from day one.

Perhaps; but these things are rarely explained it seems.

And in The Great Chariot, Longchenpa wrote that using sense pleasures on the path is for the somewhat experienced, otherwise there’s an danger of falling into the hells.

I doubt that someone who happens to attend an initiation for the first time and who’s never done any retreat, no skill in pranayama or trul khor, etc. can come right out the gate after their first empowerment using these things skillfully.

I’m all for these methods; it’s just that without some control and skill, someone could easily, say, become an alcoholic or lose ojas from sexual excesses, thinking that they’re taking pleasures onto the path in a skillful way; when they’re in fact only deluding themselves.

This is true. There is this thing going on a lot in modern vajrayana. Folks just get empowerments. But what is meant to happen is an empowerment, full transmissions of all the sadhanas and full instructions on the practices. That way a person knows what they are doing and when to do it.

[Malcolm]

This Aryadeva thing is Gelukpa,

Well, no. Khenpo Ngawang Palzang, Chatral's Rinpoche's guru, wrote an amazing commentary on this text.

[Malcolm]

Perhaps; but these things are rarely explained it seems.

There is not much to explain. Bless your food, clothes, bathing water, etc.

[Malcolm]

This is true. There is this thing going on a lot in modern vajrayana. Folks just get empowerments. But what is meant to happen is an empowerment, full transmissions of all the sadhanas and full instructions on the practices. That way a person knows what they are doing and when to do it.

Yes, what you say quite correct. People never sit down and learn one HYT sadhana practice from soup to nuts. Once they do this, all other sadhanas are cake. They never bother to pay attention to how to integrate their 24 hour a day activity into their practice. And so they remain confused and dissatisfied, and rather than understanding why they are interested in this system and that system, they wander around like hungry ghosts in search of food and water they never find.

[Sādhaka]

This is true. There is this thing going on a lot in modern vajrayana. Folks just get empowerments. But what is meant to happen is an empowerment, full transmissions of all the sadhanas and full instructions on the practices. That way a person knows what they are doing and when to do it.

Right.

But Dzogchen Tantras say that anyone who receives Direct Introduction and even keeps up a bare minimum of practice, is guaranteed total liberation within a couple lifetimes; and a number of Lamas know this I’m sure.

Of course doing the bare minimum, and being, as Dudjom Rinpoche said, an alcoholic farting lout who’s rank with lust, is not the ideal way to go about the Third and Fourth Noble Truths. Trust me, I know lol

[Natan]

This Aryadeva thing is Gelukpa,

Well, no. Khenpo Ngawang Palzang, Chatral's Rinpoche's guru, wrote an amazing commentary on this text.

That is fine, but the point is the Geluk emphasize this attitude. And Nyingma do not emphasize Aryadeva. Does not matter that there is one commentary on it. The Nyingma definitely get into tantric practice in full bloom and further get into Dzogchen which as you know is not the path of renunciation.

[Natan]

This is true. There is this thing going on a lot in modern vajrayana. Folks just get empowerments. But what is meant to happen is an empowerment, full transmissions of all the sadhanas and full instructions on the practices. That way a person knows what they are doing and when to do it.

Yes, what you say quite correct. People never sit down and learn one HYT sadhana practice from soup to nuts. Once they do this, all other sadhanas are cake. They never bother to pay attention to how to integrate their 24 hour a day activity into their practice. And so they remain confused and dissatisfied, and rather than understanding why they are interested in this system and that system, they wander around like hungry ghosts in search of food and water they never find.

Exactly, basically all the hemming and hawing about Vajrayana on this site and in dharma groups is because of the hiding the ball effect.

[Grigoris]

Perhaps; but these things are rarely explained it seems.

These things are explained, but you have to show a certain amount of dedication first.

Westerners are not lacking ojas as a consequence of veganism and sexual excess, they are lacking perseverance, commitment and humility. They go to teachers (who have spent decades on basics) demanding the highest practices when they are actually incapable of even trying to develop the lowest.

They go hunting for super-star gurus (to pad their ego) and ignore the lama next door that can take them from A to Z (or at least to X).

They are unwilling to give the least (eg pay for seminars, retreats and empowerments, when they actually have the money to do so) and expect everything.

They consume the teacher's precious time with questions pertaining to their personal lives and do not spend these few moments with their teachers discussing their practices.

These things are explained, but you have to earn the explanation.

[Natan]

This is true. There is this thing going on a lot in modern vajrayana. Folks just get empowerments. But what is meant to happen is an empowerment, full transmissions of all the sadhanas and full instructions on the practices. That way a person knows what they are doing and when to do it.

Right.

But Dzogchen Tantras say that anyone who receives Direct Introduction and even keeps up a bare minimum of practice, is guaranteed total liberation within a couple lifetimes; and a number of Lamas know this I’m sure.

Of course doing the bare minimum, and being, as Dudjom Rinpoche said, an alcoholic farting lout who’s rank with lust, is not the ideal way to go about the Third and Fourth Noble Truths. Trust me, I know lol

good for you

[Astus]

What you are missing is this avoidance attitude is for monks. Further, it is for monks who are not working on completion stage.

Not just for monks.

'When thoughts of sensual desire arise in him towards his own wife, and he comes under the influence of reactive emotions, then, seeing the foulness of his wife and with a frightened mind, he should not be bound by attachment to engaging in sensual pleasures, and should always reflect on impermanence, nonself, and impurity.'
(Inquiry of Ugra Sutra (Ugradattaparipṛcchāsūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 81, tr Charles Goodman)

One is not at all greedy at the point of completion stage.

How has greed disappeared by then? Also, if it's gone, there is no intention at all to simply enjoy sense pleasures.

[Astus]

to transform ordinary daily conduct and bring it into the path by replacing impure conceptuality with pure conceptuality.

Why would it produce a different mental habit regarding clinging to sense pleasures if one eats the pie as a dessert or as an offering, since actually one eats it because of its taste? Of course, it adds something good to it, but it how would it change the basic intention?

When one is on an island composed entirely of gold, one will have attachment to no specific part of it, one will have no discrimination towards anything on it, and thereby, one is freed of clinging.

On an island of gold one does not hoard gold, one does not want gold at all. So seeing an apple pie then is no different from seeing an empty plate, and one normally does not think much about empty plates. But still, it does not answer what makes the Vajrayana method more efficient.

We already think of ourselves, this is a given. In other words, in just the same way as fire is used to put out fire, or water is used to draw water out of the ear, the creation stage uses conceptuality to overcome conceptuality. Hence it is more profound than methods which try to suppress or eliminate conceptuality, such as those you mention above.

I can see how changing one's view about oneself can be helpful, if one has sufficient faith of course, and then it still takes practice, like for instance to remind oneself of being a buddha and not a glutton. At the same time, one could also remind oneself of all sorts of other teachings to help alleviating harmful impulses. So while for some it might be easier to believe in one's own buddha state, for others to contemplate the drawbacks of indulgence, for others to simply recognise the intention as baseless, and so on.

These above teachings are consistent with the path of renunciation. However, they are contradicted by the higher teachings of Vajrayāna, the path of transfomation, and the citations illustrating this point have already been provided above, so there is no need to repeat them here.

It's been stated that Vajrayana takes appearances on the path, but as for how that is different from not grasping them through recognition of their emptiness (as taught for instance in The Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones), has so far not been demonstrated. Yes, skandhas are buddhas, and buddhas are pure beings, and thinking of oneself as a pure being is a unique method of Vajrayana. But even if one can reimagine oneself, that in itself does not liberate one from the three poisons, does it?

As also mentioned above, the Buddha's teachings of sūtra are for those with a) less affliction, and b) less capability. But contrast, Vajrayāna teachings are designed for those with a) greater affliction, and b) greater capabilities.
Therefore, can either accept the Buddha's teachings in the tantras, in which case, one has no choice but to become a Vajrayāna practitioner; but failing that, if one cannot generate faith in these teachings, then leave them aside, but do not criticize them, because there in lies the fault of criticizing the Dharma.

I said nothing against Vajrayana, not that it is not efficient, not that it is less efficient, not that it is for less capable or dull people. On the other hand, claims like that have been said against every non-Vajrayana teaching. So I'm asking about some clear reasons for such an opinion.