Age of Mahayana Schools

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by LastLegend »

I totally disagree with master Malcolm’s assessment of common Mahayana. However, common Mahayana lacks truly realized teachers.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Crazywisdom »

Astus wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:03 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:37 amWell Gampopa taught fivefold path mahamudra to practitioners and sutra mahamudra to laypersons.
The Fivefold Mahamudra is a teaching of the Drikungpas coming from Jigten Sumgon. Gampopa taught to a few close disciples candali, to everyone else (monastic or not) he taught what is now called Sutra Mahamudra, and regarding the reason behind that distinction between the two approaches:

'The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.'

(Mahāmudrā: The Swift Way to Become a Lord of Realization by Jamgön Kongtrul Lodrö Thaye)
Dead wrong buddy. Fivefold the word comes from Gampopa. The method from Lawapa and to Tilopa.
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Minobu
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:53 pm Emptiness, in sutra,
I think here lies the problem I am having with you and your USE of the word emptiness.

Lord Nagarjuna's teaching on sunyata came after sutra and is a whole other ball of wax...

You are destroying the Sunyata concept with what you think is something relevant because the use of two words that are spelled the same.
Misappropriation of one teaching in order to explain something else..
IMHO
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Crazywisdom »

Astus wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:41 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:16 pmalso found extensively taught and practiced in Drukpa Kagyu as well.
Thanks, that's good to know.
You need to see Gampopa Teaches Mahamudra by Tony Duff. You are both wrong. The exact phrasing of 5fold came as an answer to a question posed by Pagmo Drupa to Gampopa.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Crazywisdom »

Astus wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:03 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:37 amWell Gampopa taught fivefold path mahamudra to practitioners and sutra mahamudra to laypersons.
The Fivefold Mahamudra is a teaching of the Drikungpas coming from Jigten Sumgon. Gampopa taught to a few close disciples candali, to everyone else (monastic or not) he taught what is now called Sutra Mahamudra, and regarding the reason behind that distinction between the two approaches:

'The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.'

(Mahāmudrā: The Swift Way to Become a Lord of Realization by Jamgön Kongtrul Lodrö Thaye)
The crucial point is for either the Gampopa Mahamudra will he 5 Fold path in some degree or
Another as means of introducing "The Innate." That goes for any Kagyu lineage. And pretty poems about the innate are lovely window dressing.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Emptiness in sutra is complete as it is the question for common Mahayana is how to get there.

“Contemplating the appearances of subject and object without differentiation is practicing prajñā-pāramitā.” Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra by Manjushri

Not meant to be instructional. But all one needs to do is transcend distinction in mind which is not easy, could be. That’s all to it. The task is not easy to tell whether the distinction is actually transcended. This is meant for direct introduction people. Can be very confusing for starters without introduction.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Crazywisdom »

Astus wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:03 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:37 amWell Gampopa taught fivefold path mahamudra to practitioners and sutra mahamudra to laypersons.
The Fivefold Mahamudra is a teaching of the Drikungpas coming from Jigten Sumgon. Gampopa taught to a few close disciples candali, to everyone else (monastic or not) he taught what is now called Sutra Mahamudra, and regarding the reason behind that distinction between the two approaches:

'The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.'

(Mahāmudrā: The Swift Way to Become a Lord of Realization by Jamgön Kongtrul Lodrö Thaye)
Also if you know how he taught candali it is also 5Fold Path. There is no escaping it.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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This is very different from Soto the emphasis is sitting.
Make personal vows.

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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Because what is distinction? That’s even hard to tell it transitions so quickly. This requires truly realized teachers. Bum like myself is too lazy to devote to practice and keep being on this forum. And was scold by my teacher in the past few days.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Minobu »

LastLegend wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:23 pm Emptiness in sutra is complete as it is the question for common Mahayana is how to get there.

“Contemplating the appearances of subject and object without differentiation is practicing prajñā-pāramitā.” Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra by Manjushri

Not meant to be instructional. But all one needs to do is transcend distinction in mind which is not easy, could be. That’s all to it. The task is not easy to tell whether the distinction is actually transcended. This is meant for direct introduction people. Can be very confusing for starters without introduction.
Not fully understanding what you are saying and it seems a good thing to reread a few times...hopefully it brings me fruit.

It was the advent of Lord Nagarjuna's teaching on Sunyata that influenced all of Mahayana and made sense of certain aspects of Sutras .

so i ask you this...

is this pure inner emptiness part and parcel to the teaching of Sunyata or is it some other teaching..

one of the points of Sunyata is to come to a view that there is no underlying inherent thing which all things manifest from...let alone describing the nature of that thing .

I have no idea why one would want explain that sunyata is a thing when it does the exact opposite...


sunyata is simple...so simple but it took me five years to rid myself of what Rinpoche said i was doing .." looking for some underlying thing or cause from which all things come from ."

thats not the point you are supposed to come to with Sunyata view...i think you are saying the same thing...

ok ...


first up you realize you can't live without food or water and air..basic...you are not here without those...

then you start to think about how everything relies on something else to exist..

a bell..

there is the mineral ..the miners ...the smelters...the shaping ...the tuning...
take anyone of those out of the picture and there is no bell..

forget about the scientific stuff and all the physics that go into it...lol...thats modern....


everything is like this , your mind , your Buddha nature , skandhas...


so then like all things Buddhist it turns into a compassionate philosophy...we are not alone in this everything depends on other things...your view changes..
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by LastLegend »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:48 pm
is this pure inner emptiness part and parcel to the teaching of Sunyata or is it some other teaching..
You doubt your understanding it’s correct.

Emptiness means Mahaprajna that has no distinction in itself like that state that you are in it’s just that. However when distinction is made it’s often clouded by karma. For example, in order to know pure you must make a distinction of it, it then becomes an object of attachment. The is the point. It’s not there is no appearance of pure because these things manifest as you progress. There is. Not holding it to be final. Whatever subtle grasping or designation that’s distinction and aggregates. So the question was asked: what knows pure versus unpure, bad versus good, a table versus chair, inner versus outer, etc? The answer is distinction. Inner is just a way for people to look deep into their mind but it cannot be done with previous knowledge or learned material because that is just going back to the beginning of making distinction and confused by aggregates further.

Notice meant for people with direct states.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Minobu »

LastLegend wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:09 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:48 pm
is this pure inner emptiness part and parcel to the teaching of Sunyata or is it some other teaching..
You doubt your understanding it’s correct.

Emptiness means Mahaprajna that has no distinction in itself like that state that you are in it’s just that. However when distinction is made it’s often clouded by karma. For example, in order to know pure you must make a distinction of it, it then becomes an object of attachment. The is the point. It’s not there is no appearance of pure because these things manifest as you progress. There is. Not holding it to be final. Whatever subtle grasping or designation that’s distinction and aggregates. So the question was asked: what knows pure versus unpure, bad versus good, a table versus chair, inner versus outer, etc? The answer is distinction. Inner is just a way for people to look deep into their mind but it cannot be done with previous knowledge or learned material because that is just going back to the beginning of making distinction and confused by aggregates further.

Notice meant for people with direct states.
so from what you take from what i am trying to discern here...

is there different meanings to the use of the word emptiness... From a sunyata perspective we know what it means ...then from other perspectives the use of the word points to things....so this is why i say it confuses the meaning of sunyata ...

meh...i'm off to practice.. :tongue: winkety wink.cya tonight..

see i read you ..but encourage you to take your teacher's advice as well...

lol...yer alright
d
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by LastLegend »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:15 pm
LastLegend wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:09 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:48 pm
is this pure inner emptiness part and parcel to the teaching of Sunyata or is it some other teaching..
You doubt your understanding it’s correct.

Emptiness means Mahaprajna that has no distinction in itself like that state that you are in it’s just that. However when distinction is made it’s often clouded by karma. For example, in order to know pure you must make a distinction of it, it then becomes an object of attachment. The is the point. It’s not there is no appearance of pure because these things manifest as you progress. There is. Not holding it to be final. Whatever subtle grasping or designation that’s distinction and aggregates. So the question was asked: what knows pure versus unpure, bad versus good, a table versus chair, inner versus outer, etc? The answer is distinction. Inner is just a way for people to look deep into their mind but it cannot be done with previous knowledge or learned material because that is just going back to the beginning of making distinction and confused by aggregates further.

Notice meant for people with direct states.
so from what you take from what i am trying to discern here...

is there different meanings to the use of the word emptiness... From a sunyata perspective we know what it means ...then from other perspectives the use of the word points to things....so this is why i say it confuses the meaning of sunyata ...
You are correct. If you have to separate it from the state that you are in, the distinction is already made ‘it’ being the object. However, we can recognize it as empty not any appearance in itself. For example, when we lift our foot to move; did we make any distinction or think or have any intention? Maybe that’s a bad example. If pure means good state of feelings no more suffering no more delusion, yes there is such things. Which means if distinction is clearly made without anything else between a table a chair or pure versus impure, then it’s wisdom. However, distinction when not transcended to complete emptiness, it’s almost always followed by confusion and karma. It cannot be called wisdom. Once it’s transcended, according to my teacher, you can manifest many different states not just bliss. The issue here is when using language to describe emptiness, we are referring to ‘it’ being an object of designation.
meh...i'm off to practice.. :tongue: winkety wink.cya tonight..

see i read you ..but encourage you to take your teacher's advice as well...

lol...yer alright
d
I am here for fun. :lol:
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:53 pmIn sūtra there is no antidotal method of conceiving the appearance of things as pure which are typically conceived by ordinary sentient being as impure. Emptiness, in sutra, is provided as cure for this, in terms of nature, but not in terms of appearance. Vajrayāna address both nature and appearance; sūtra only addresses nature, not appearance.
One sees a tasty looking apple pie. How not to fall into craving? For instance, the Vitakkasanthana Sutta gives five (progressive) methods: pay attention to something else (that is conducive to good thoughts), consider the drawbacks of craving, forget and pay no attention to it, relax the mental fabrications/concoctions about it, subdue the thoughts by force. Or one can think of it as something disgusting, something undesirable; or as something insubstantial, meaningless, and worthless. How would Vajrayana address this situation? If one thinks one is a buddha one can just give in to any impulse?
The distinction between the the common and uncommon Mahāyāna is principally the difference between method, the latter being more efficacious and more rapid. One does not merely regard oneself as buddhanatured, causally, one regards oneself as a buddha from the outset of entering the path. One does not regard one's teacher as being "like a buddha," one regards one's master as an actual buddha right from the outset and so on, based on the special methods of abhiṣeka, sadhana, and so forth.
How does it make it more efficacious to think of oneself being a buddha, instead of not to think of oneself as anything at all?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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I prefer Mahaprajna over Buddha nature or emptiness because the word emptiness gives problems. Maybe I should stop :lol: I’ve been yelled by people here.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Astus wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:51 pm
One sees a tasty looking apple pie. How not to fall into craving? For instance, the Vitakkasanthana Sutta gives five (progressive) methods: pay attention to something else (that is conducive to good thoughts), consider the drawbacks of craving, forget and pay no attention to it, relax the mental fabrications/concoctions about it, subdue the thoughts by force. Or one can think of it as something disgusting, something undesirable; or as something insubstantial, meaningless, and worthless. How would Vajrayana address this situation? If one thinks one is a buddha one can just give in to any impulse?
You can subdue thoughts and arise at a state but it’s not final.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Aemilius »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:06 am
Aemilius wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:29 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:03 am

Are you seriously accepting those people as authoritative in the same way that we would accept sutra and tantra? Just want to understand if that's what you're really saying
Yes I am serious. In the chinese history there have been many disputes whether certain sutras are authoritative or not. And those disputes still go on. Same applies to persons, will they be accepted as masters or not? And by whom will they be accepted? There were serious doubts concerning Bodhidharma. Some buddhist authorities tried to poison him. In India Vasubandhu had to fear for his life at some point of his career. Etc..
OK, so here are some randomly-selected descriptions of the people who appear on the 'buddha at the gas pump' site:
She is a pioneer in integrating a contemporary nondual path with a healing path. At Luminous Awareness Institute she has developed and teaches a groundbreaking system, synthesized over 25 years that supports the realization of the essential being of who we already are, with practices and inner technologies from a wide variety of sources; Tibetan Buddhism, developmental psychology, neurophysiology, Chi Gong, and subtle energy.

Mark is certified in Past Life Regression Therapy by Brian Weiss MD and the Facilitated After-Death Contact technique by Raymond Moody PhD, MD

Concepts such as karma, transcendence, sychronicity, reincarnation, rebirth, pure consciousness energy, and indigenous encounters have led to an understanding of the truth power of myth and ancient truths.

Robin Aisha Landsong is a Transformational Speaker, Visual Artist, Medicine Singer, and Medical/Health Intuitive.

Sally Kempton is a deeply practiced teacher of meditation and spiritual philosophy, and the author of the books Meditation for the Love of It and Awakening Shakti: as well as the audio course Doorways to the Infinite, recently put out by Sounds True.
No Buddhas here, and I didn't see any gas pump either.

If you somehow equate these people to Vasubandhu, or equate consideration of their work to debate over whether a sutra is authoritative - then you really need to regain some sense of proportion.

Times change, styles of expression change, language, technology and culture change. Inevitably buddhism also changes. There are different tendencies within buddhism; towards concervatism and towards progress and development. In ancient times we had Hui Neng and other innovators within the Buddhadharma, in China and elsewehre. What if Hui Neng had been murdered? We tend to put ancient masters on pedestals, and people who are near to us we see as ordinary. There have been highly valued chinese masters that practiced Taoism besides buddhism, like the Cold Mountain. There have been innovations like tea cermony or Chado; do means tao, and there are other dos like aikido, judo, karate(do) etc... These are not accepted as the Way by the all the masters of buddhist schools. Similarly with the different kinds of therapy etc, some of them may be accepted by certain buddhist teachers.
"An enlightend being" leads to an infnite regress, does it not? Who was the "first" one ? Or the previous one?
Who accepted Shakyamuni as a Buddha? Several people had doubts about him.Some were finally converted like the five ascetics and the Kashyapa brahmanas, some were not like the the Jain teacher Mahavira and his followers.
I like Buddha At the Gas Pump because this guy has guts to say that he interviews Ordinary Awakening Beings or Ordinary Awakened Beings. This is quite a thing to say, I think. You can always judge the matter for your self. In the end it all depends on yourself.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Crazywisdom »

Astus wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:51 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:53 pmIn sūtra there is no antidotal method of conceiving the appearance of things as pure which are typically conceived by ordinary sentient being as impure. Emptiness, in sutra, is provided as cure for this, in terms of nature, but not in terms of appearance. Vajrayāna address both nature and appearance; sūtra only addresses nature, not appearance.
One sees a tasty looking apple pie. How not to fall into craving? For instance, the Vitakkasanthana Sutta gives five (progressive) methods: pay attention to something else (that is conducive to good thoughts), consider the drawbacks of craving, forget and pay no attention to it, relax the mental fabrications/concoctions about it, subdue the thoughts by force. Or one can think of it as something disgusting, something undesirable; or as something insubstantial, meaningless, and worthless. How would Vajrayana address this situation? If one thinks one is a buddha one can just give in to any impulse?
The distinction between the the common and uncommon Mahāyāna is principally the difference between method, the latter being more efficacious and more rapid. One does not merely regard oneself as buddhanatured, causally, one regards oneself as a buddha from the outset of entering the path. One does not regard one's teacher as being "like a buddha," one regards one's master as an actual buddha right from the outset and so on, based on the special methods of abhiṣeka, sadhana, and so forth.
How does it make it more efficacious to think of oneself being a buddha, instead of not to think of oneself as anything at all?
1st the method you mention is the same for hinayana. The special method of Mahayana is relative and ultimate bodhichitta. Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to rush.

Vajrayana is based on this attitude. There is the deity yoga you mentioned. At this stage one conceptually views the pie as the consort. At the completion stage one has directed one's essential elements into the central channel so one is fully dedicated to bliss. Seeing the empty nature of bliss becomes very clear and unborn enlightment itself, one eats the pie or does whatever is being offered or presented as a spontaneous benefit.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:20 pmI like Buddha At the Gas Pump because this guy has guts to say that he interviews Ordinary Awakening Beings or Ordinary Awakened Beings. This is quite a thing to say, I think.
If I told you that I was a Buddha and the reincarnation of both Krishna and Confucius, would you say that I had guts too?
You can always judge the matter for your self. In the end it all depends on yourself.
Well maybe. But we also have the sutras and the tantras, and can check to see if what people say demonstrates knowledge of and is consistent with these. Or, perhaps, we can just use common sense, a much-underrated virtue these days.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Please return to the topic. Thanks!
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