Astus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:50 am
Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:50 pm
The difference is not view nor the goal, Buddhahood, the difference is in method, the intelligence of the trainee, and so on.
And that difference in method is the question. You have kindly provided a summary
of Vajrayana methods, where it was made clear that the difference proposed was how it's not the five objects of desires that are given up but 'the ordinary conceptuality about the five objects of desire that is the root of all attachment and aversion'. To that I wrote
that it is no different from what is done in Sutrayana.
Then you've misunderstood what "ordinary conceptuality" means. What does it mean? It means to conceive the five buddhas, the five mothers, the male and female bodhisattvas as skandhas, elements, sense organs and sense objects.
So, how is there a difference in method, when the method of Vajrayana is to eliminate ordinary concepts instead of objects, and so it is with Sutrayana too?
The sūtras do not teach that the five skandhas, five elements, sense organs, sense objects and so on, are, their real nature, the mandala of the five buddhas, five mothers, etc.
Secret Mantra is superior because the wisdom which arises in the mind at the time of the descent of gnosis, or third empowerment and so forth, is freedom from proliferation realized directly.
That is an answer then to have wisdom available from the start, although the third empowerment is said to be only an example, and the fourth is the actual realisation that is the level of Dzogchen (Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 130-132) and Mahamudra (e.g.The Treasury of Knowledge, vol 6, p 231-233; further elaborated in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 485-490).
It is not certain that the gnosis of the descent of the gnosis being or the gnosis demonstrated during the experience of third and fourth empowerment is only an example wisdom. That depends very much on the trainee. But there is no method of inducing either an example gnosis or a realized gnosis in any sūtra tradition as the entrance to the path. Why? In sūtra, abhiṣeka is reserved for tenth stage bodhisattvas in the second half the tenth bhumi, as indicated by the Avatamsaka, Lankāvatāra, and other sūtras.
The verbal instruction to directly see the nature of mind is found in both the Vajrayana and the Sutrayana (Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181), so if there is a methodical difference, it is related to the example wisdom, but not the real one.
Incorrect. The methodical difference is related to both kinds of gnosis, not merely the first, since in ordinary persons, the second arises from the first.