Age of Mahayana Schools

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Malcolm
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:28 pm The issue here is views are often grasped by consciousness. Once wisdom is directly discerned, I don’t think people should go back to the old grasping way of views. It’s about using this wisdom to go further. How? That depends on traditions. But if see this wisdom as the way, then it should be the foundation. It might be individual and cultural that East Asian culture favors ‘simple’ methods within that wisdom. Maybe. Might not be true to Japan Tantric.
Simple is not necessarily rapid. It all depends on how much you desire omniscience in order to benefit other sentient beings. Without entering Vajrayāna, one cannot possibly attain full awakening in less than 20 eons, should one be an ordinary sentient beings. Even extraordinary beings like Śākyamuni Buddha, from the point of the perception of ordinary beings, endeavored for three incalculable eons on the path until attaining full awakening under the bodhitree on the bodhimaṇḍa.
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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 pm
Simple is not necessarily rapid. It all depends on how much you desire omniscience in order to benefit other sentient beings.
I agree. Simple here can mean a straight jump or at least what I am taught.

Without entering Vajrayāna, one cannot possibly attain full awakening in less than 20 eons, should one be an ordinary sentient beings. Even extraordinary beings like Śākyamuni Buddha, from the point of the perception of ordinary beings, endeavored for three incalculable eons on the path until attaining full awakening under the bodhitree on the bodhimaṇḍa.
I disagree with the claim:
1) how is full awakening defined? as a complete Buddha or total samadhi of emptiness.
2) a controversial question and only my opinion we can disagree here: how many on the forum have attained the actually attained full awakening? There is no way to know. It remains my opinion that’s not many.
Make personal vows.

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Malcolm
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:31 pm
1) how is full awakening defined? as a complete Buddha or total samadhi of emptiness.
Samyaksambodhi.
2) a controversial question and only my opinion we can disagree here: how many on the forum have attained the actually attained full awakening? There is no way to know. It remains my opinion that’s not many.
Zero. Buddhas don't hang on internet forums.
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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:13 pm Samyaksambodhi.
You will have to explain it to me I’ve used that word because I assumed I understood and thought it’s referring to the same thing as samadhi of emptiness, as my understanding both wisdom or the clear feature and emptiness become fully functional without being confused by consciousness.
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Charlie123
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:13 pm Samyaksambodhi.
You will have to explain it to me I’ve used that word because I assumed I understood and thought it’s referring to the same thing as samadhi of emptiness, as my understanding both wisdom or the clear feature and emptiness become fully functional without being confused by consciousness.
It is the difference between reaching the first bhumi and complete budhahood (Samyaksambhodi). Seeing emptiness directly is the first bhumi, not complete budhahood.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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mandog wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:25 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:13 pm Samyaksambodhi.
You will have to explain it to me I’ve used that word because I assumed I understood and thought it’s referring to the same thing as samadhi of emptiness, as my understanding both wisdom or the clear feature and emptiness become fully functional without being confused by consciousness.
It is the difference between reaching the first bhumi and complete budhahood (Samyaksambhodi). Seeing emptiness directly is the first bhumi, not complete budhahood.
Okay!
Care to explain the difference?
Make personal vows.

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Charlie123
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:51 pm
mandog wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:25 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:30 pm

You will have to explain it to me I’ve used that word because I assumed I understood and thought it’s referring to the same thing as samadhi of emptiness, as my understanding both wisdom or the clear feature and emptiness become fully functional without being confused by consciousness.
It is the difference between reaching the first bhumi and complete budhahood (Samyaksambhodi). Seeing emptiness directly is the first bhumi, not complete budhahood.
Okay!
Care to explain the difference?
Well, a Buddha is omniscient and has completely purified the two kinds of obscurations. A bodhisattva on the first bhumi is not omniscient and has not completely purified their obscurations. There is a lot to say about all this. You should read about 'the five paths' and 'the ten bhumis' if you want to get a hold on the differences in attainment between the Arya bodhisattvas on the various bhumis and a completely enlightened Buddha. Also, a bodhisattva on the first bhumi can lose their realization at the time of death. It actually isn't until the higher bhumis that a bodhisattva maintains their realization through the dying process.
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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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mandog wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:09 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:51 pm
mandog wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:25 pm

It is the difference between reaching the first bhumi and complete budhahood (Samyaksambhodi). Seeing emptiness directly is the first bhumi, not complete budhahood.
Okay!
Care to explain the difference?
Well, a Buddha is omniscient and has completely purified the two kinds of obscurations. A bodhisattva on the first bhumi is not omniscient and has not completely purified their obscurations. There is a lot to say about all this. You should read about 'the five paths' and 'the ten bhumis' if you want to get a hold on the differences in attainment between the Arya bodhisattvas on the various bhumis and a completely enlightened Buddha.
Arahant appears to have no obscurations of subject and object, and emotional afflictions if that’s what you mean the two obscurations?
Make personal vows.

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Charlie123
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:26 pm
mandog wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:09 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:51 pm

Okay!
Care to explain the difference?
Well, a Buddha is omniscient and has completely purified the two kinds of obscurations. A bodhisattva on the first bhumi is not omniscient and has not completely purified their obscurations. There is a lot to say about all this. You should read about 'the five paths' and 'the ten bhumis' if you want to get a hold on the differences in attainment between the Arya bodhisattvas on the various bhumis and a completely enlightened Buddha.
Arahant appears to have no obscurations of subject and object, and emotional afflictions if that’s what you mean the two obscurations?
The are subtle obscurations / knowledge obscurations, and coarse obscurations / the obscurations of the afflictions (kleshas). AFAIK, Arhats have subdued the afflictions but still have subtle obscurations.

Arhats have only realized the emptiness of self. Bodhisattvas have realized the emptiness of all phenomena.

Not quite clear on this sentence, "Arahant appears to have no obscurations of subject and object", but if you are saying what I think you are saying, I don't think it is correct. Arhats still have dualistic perception of self and other.

I haven't studied this stuff in any depth. It is hard for me to paint a complete picture here.
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Minobu
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 pm Even extraordinary beings like Śākyamuni Buddha, from the point of the perception of ordinary beings, endeavored for three incalculable eons on the path until attaining full awakening under the bodhitree on the bodhimaṇḍa.
and yet after being asked about that three times Lord Sakyamuni replied it was in fact a long time ago when He first attained Buddhaood..

I the Lotus Sutra it gives this incredible math on the time period.

So apparently it was all just theatre under the Bodhi Tree.
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Minobu
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:13 pm

Zero. Buddhas don't hang on internet forums.
:jawdrop:
Malcolm
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 pm Even extraordinary beings like Śākyamuni Buddha, from the point of the perception of ordinary beings, endeavored for three incalculable eons on the path until attaining full awakening under the bodhitree on the bodhimaṇḍa.
and yet after being asked about that three times Lord Sakyamuni replied it was in fact a long time ago when He first attained Buddhaood..

I the Lotus Sutra it gives this incredible math on the time period.

So apparently it was all just theatre under the Bodhi Tree.
Yes, it adds up to three incalculable eons.
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:50 pmThe difference is not view nor the goal, Buddhahood, the difference is in method, the intelligence of the trainee, and so on.
And that difference in method is the question. You have kindly provided a summary of Vajrayana methods, where it was made clear that the difference proposed was how it's not the five objects of desires that are given up but 'the ordinary conceptuality about the five objects of desire that is the root of all attachment and aversion'. To that I wrote that it is no different from what is done in Sutrayana. Then the efficacy of seeing the emptiness of appearances was questioned, and answered by showing that there is no difference in freedom from proliferation. So, how is there a difference in method, when the method of Vajrayana is to eliminate ordinary concepts instead of objects, and so it is with Sutrayana too? But if the absence of proliferation is not a method, then Vajrayana doesn't have it either. Or it could be said that the difference lies in the method of attaining nonconceptual wisdom, but then the problem is in proposing wisdom that can be used in Vajrayana as a method where the five objects of desire are not eliminated.
Secret Mantra is superior because the wisdom which arises in the mind at the time of the descent of gnosis, or third empowerment and so forth, is freedom from proliferation realized directly.
That is an answer then to have wisdom available from the start, although the third empowerment is said to be only an example, and the fourth is the actual realisation that is the level of Dzogchen (Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 130-132) and Mahamudra (e.g. The Treasury of Knowledge, vol 6, p 231-233; further elaborated in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 485-490). The verbal instruction to directly see the nature of mind is found in both the Vajrayana and the Sutrayana (Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181), so if there is a methodical difference, it is related to the example wisdom, but not the real one.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Astus
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:41 pmThe wisdom is the same in sutra and tantra. But the methods are quite different.
It is through removing the two obscurations with wisdom that one arrives at buddhahood (Uttaratantra Shastra, 7.390-391), as buddha-nature itself is already complete with perfect qualities.

As Gampopa stated:
'When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in not included in this path'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 252)

One can also obtain wisdom through a successive practice of methods, by a single method, or without any method.

Again, from Gampopa:
'In that case, if all these are included in meditating on only the essence or the mind-as-such, why do there appear teachings on so many graduated methods? It is for the purpose of leading all those sentient beings of little fortune, who are ignorant in the ultimate nature.'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 254-255)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Astus wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:50 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:50 pmThe difference is not view nor the goal, Buddhahood, the difference is in method, the intelligence of the trainee, and so on.
And that difference in method is the question. You have kindly provided a summary of Vajrayana methods, where it was made clear that the difference proposed was how it's not the five objects of desires that are given up but 'the ordinary conceptuality about the five objects of desire that is the root of all attachment and aversion'. To that I wrote that it is no different from what is done in Sutrayana. Then the efficacy of seeing the emptiness of appearances was questioned, and answered by showing that there is no difference in freedom from proliferation. So, how is there a difference in method, when the method of Vajrayana is to eliminate ordinary concepts instead of objects, and so it is with Sutrayana too? But if the absence of proliferation is not a method, then Vajrayana doesn't have it either. Or it could be said that the difference lies in the method of attaining nonconceptual wisdom, but then the problem is in proposing wisdom that can be used in Vajrayana as a method where the five objects of desire are not eliminated.
Secret Mantra is superior because the wisdom which arises in the mind at the time of the descent of gnosis, or third empowerment and so forth, is freedom from proliferation realized directly.
That is an answer then to have wisdom available from the start, although the third empowerment is said to be only an example, and the fourth is the actual realisation that is the level of Dzogchen (Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 130-132) and Mahamudra (e.g. The Treasury of Knowledge, vol 6, p 231-233; further elaborated in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 485-490). The verbal instruction to directly see the nature of mind is found in both the Vajrayana and the Sutrayana (Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181), so if there is a methodical difference, it is related to the example wisdom, but not the real one.
Not sure if I agree with wording:
1) ‘eliminate’ implying something is wrong and discriminative

It doesn’t stand for Mahayana. Even in absence of grasping concepts, there is still a distinction that very distinction cannot be eliminated it can be transcended which is a better word.


2) conceptuality being a single thing
Make personal vows.

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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Notice I totally disagree that bliss is to be enjoyed. It’s only a resting place and only one state of manifestations according to my teacher.

Also I encourage people not to believe in eons of life time for enlightenment because if that’s the attitude it will regress and people will never believe that they can reach enlightenment. Bad attitude.
Make personal vows.

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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Although teachers are needed but it’s not the case of regular contact and even if regular contact between the student and teacher, what needed to be encouraged is to deepen their nature at whatever that state that we are in?
Make personal vows.

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Minobu
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:14 am
Minobu wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 pm Even extraordinary beings like Śākyamuni Buddha, from the point of the perception of ordinary beings, endeavored for three incalculable eons on the path until attaining full awakening under the bodhitree on the bodhimaṇḍa.
and yet after being asked about that three times Lord Sakyamuni replied it was in fact a long time ago when He first attained Buddhaood..

I the Lotus Sutra it gives this incredible math on the time period.

So apparently it was all just theatre under the Bodhi Tree.
Yes, it adds up to three incalculable eons.
so earlier on this thread you mentioned how some sutras contradict others...is this one of those cases...

and please be simple for me...why would this happen..not just this case but of what you said about sutras contradicting each other...


in this case it is believed that the Lotus Sutra smashed all thought before hand and The Thus One finally explains the reality of His Being.

apparently according to the Sutra people were not ready or could handle the Truth.

so then we have the journey of Lotus Buddhism accumulating in The Honzon Nichiren Shonin inscribed.

all the dharmas previous were set in place as stepping stones to This Event... if you want to follow Dharma and it's influence and history.


so for me it's not that they contradict each other ...it's that they prepare for the next step and the inevitable time period of decline...
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LastLegend
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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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You pleaded your case...we will wait for the jury. I’ll be your lawyer.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

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Astus wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:50 amThe verbal instruction to directly see the nature of mind is found in both the Vajrayana and the Sutrayana (Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181), so if there is a methodical difference, it is related to the example wisdom, but not the real one.
Are you saying here that Mahamudra is Sutrayana?
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