Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

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White Sakura
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by White Sakura »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:33 pm
People are free to approach things however they want to.
I think he made clear how he wants to approach things. I quoted it above.
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

White Sakura wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:46 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:33 pm
People are free to approach things however they want to.
I think he made clear how he wants to approach things. I quoted it above.
Yes, he asked for specific recommendation based on personal experiences in the bit you quoted.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Grigoris
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Grigoris »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:33 pmPeople are free to approach things however they want to.
Indeed. But some approaches are better than others.

Like it is probably a good idea to learn how to use a parachute BEFORE jumping from a plane.

But hell, people are free to approach...

If they want to learn how to use a parachute while falling from a plane, who am I to recommend something else to them?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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White Sakura
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by White Sakura »

I am curious myself. So I wonder why nobody talks of incarnate Lamas coming to US. He said, east coast.
Just saying, the problem he is worried about was discussed even in the German forum. There has been a big scandal...

I can recommend a Kagyu und Nyingma Master: Ringu Tulku Rinpoche. I know he is coming to the US as well but I do not know where in the US he teaches.
He is a 100 percent pure monk.
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by LastLegend »

Minobu wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:46 pm see what comes your way...online thing is the worse...especially to start off ...be with real people...Buddhism if nothing else is a community...online aspect should come later on .....especially this sort of dog eat dog medium..
It’s true. Love and peace everyone yeah.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

White Sakura wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:05 pm I am curious myself. So I wonder why nobody talks of incarnate Lamas coming to US. He said, east coast.
Just saying, the problem he is worried about was discussed even in the German forum. There has been a big scandal...

I can recommend a Kagyu und Nyingma Master: Ringu Tulku Rinpoche. I know he is coming to the US as well but I do not know where in the US he teaches.
He is a 100 percent pure monk.
He could also go here https://sakyatemple.org/ ...well. once Covid 19 recedes enough to make such a thing possible. Anyway, he asked specifically for Dzogchen teachers and I gave my personal recommendations -based on- the fact that it's a pretty unlikely thing to go meet Lamas in person right now. If someone wants to actually go meet them in person on the East Coast and isn't limited to Dzogchen, there are lots of opportunities, though I don't know how common in person ones are right now.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:33 pmPeople are free to approach things however they want to.
Indeed. But some approaches are better than others.

Like it is probably a good idea to learn how to use a parachute BEFORE jumping from a plane.

But hell, people are free to approach...

If they want to learn how to use a parachute while falling from a plane, who am I to recommend something else to them?
I don't feel I need to qualify personal recommendations, when someone asks me for those I just give them. I don't feel that's contrary to foundational teachings like refuge, as any teacher I mentioned will, in their way emphasize refuge as foundational. So, basically, :rolleye:
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Minobu
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Minobu »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:33 pmPeople are free to approach things however they want to.
Indeed. But some approaches are better than others.

Like it is probably a good idea to learn how to use a parachute BEFORE jumping from a plane.

But hell, people are free to approach...

If they want to learn how to use a parachute while falling from a plane, who am I to recommend something else to them?
A geshe once told me there is no highest teaching..what ever teaching is suited for you at the present moment you shall be learning .thats the highest teaching for you..

He said Christianity is perfect for some , for they need to learn and maybe go through that for their evolution. Few lives later maybe a more advanced teaching shall spark their fancy. (not an exact quote)

He also said that Buddhism is like building a house...you don't make the roof before you first build the foundation then the floor, walls , before the roof.

and your Refuge concept did not go on deaf ears here...without Refuge there is no Buddhism...
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by White Sakura »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:00 pm
He could also go here https://sakyatemple.org/ ...well. once Covid 19 recedes enough to make such a thing possible. Anyway, he asked specifically for Dzogchen teachers and I gave my personal recommendations -based on- the fact that it's a pretty unlikely thing to go meet Lamas in person right now. If someone wants to actually go meet them in person on the East Coast and isn't limited to Dzogchen, there are lots of opportunities, though I don't know how common in person ones are right now.
Great. All the high Sakya Masters are also coming to Germany. I heard only good things about the masters. I mean, their private life is the Sakya family. I am just not informed about the lineage, but I suppose, they teach something similar to Dzogchen, same as in Kagyu Lineage, Mahamudra is taught.
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Norwegian »

If you want to become a Buddhist, then the most important thing is refuge. Without that, there's no Buddhism.

But if you are interested in stream entry as found in common and uncommon Mahayana, and the OP specified an interest in Dzogchen (so one can then consider it in the specific context of Dzogchen), then the most important thing is what Malcolm said above:

Find a teacher who can show you your real nature.

If you can do this, then you will also understand the actual meaning of refuge. So there is no problem.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

White Sakura wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:00 pm
He could also go here https://sakyatemple.org/ ...well. once Covid 19 recedes enough to make such a thing possible. Anyway, he asked specifically for Dzogchen teachers and I gave my personal recommendations -based on- the fact that it's a pretty unlikely thing to go meet Lamas in person right now. If someone wants to actually go meet them in person on the East Coast and isn't limited to Dzogchen, there are lots of opportunities, though I don't know how common in person ones are right now.
Great. All the high Sakya Masters are also coming to Germany. I heard only good things about the masters. I mean, their private life is the Sakya family. I am just not informed about the lineage, but I suppose, they teach something similar to Dzogchen, same as in Kagyu Lineage, Mahamudra is taught.
All the Sarma schools teach Mahamudra in some sense, in Sakya Mahamudra is taught in the Tantric context only, in my experience. Meaning, one practices Tantra. So, there is (as far as I know) no Sakya system that resembles Kagyu ‘standalone’ Mahamudra which resembles Dzogchen semde teachings. I think you can find similar instructions here and there, but if one is interested in dedicating to Sakya teachings one eventually practices Highest Yoga Tantra as a main practice.

Either way it’s only of great benefit to meet these Lamas and take teachings from them, they aren’t going to make you sign a membership card, and typically anything with commitments will be labeled as such, in my experience.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:01 pm I don't feel I need to qualify personal recommendations, when someone asks me for those I just give them. I don't feel that's contrary to foundational teachings like refuge, as any teacher I mentioned will, in their way emphasize refuge as foundational. So, basically, :rolleye:
Well, even personal recommendations need to be qualified sometimes. ;)

I am not saying that it is contrary to anything.

Here is a question which I feel is valid (not aimed at anybody in particular): How many of you here believe that direct introduction "off the bat" would really have been of any value whatsoever?

I think we tend to devalue all of the hard work we have done before arriving at the "Aha!" moment, as if the "Aha!" moment would have happened without all of the previous slog.

For example: I keep kicking myself for not doing Ngondro earlier and "wasting my time" with all sorts of other practices, when actually, if it was not for the merit built up via other practices, I would never have had the opportunity to receive Ngondro practices.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:23 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:01 pm I don't feel I need to qualify personal recommendations, when someone asks me for those I just give them. I don't feel that's contrary to foundational teachings like refuge, as any teacher I mentioned will, in their way emphasize refuge as foundational. So, basically, :rolleye:
Well, even personal recommendations need to be qualified sometimes. ;)

I am not saying that it is contrary to anything.

Here is a question which I feel is valid (not aimed at anybody in particular): How many of you here believe that direct introduction of the bat would really have been of any value whatsoever?

I think we tend to devalue all of the hard work we have done before arriving at the "Aha!" moment, as if the "Aha!" moment would have happened without all of the previous slog.

For example: I keep kicking myself for not doing Ngondro earlier and "wasting my time" with all sorts of other practices, when actually, if it was not for the merit built up via other practices, I would never have had the opportunity to receive Ngondro practices.

It depends totally on the person. However, recommending as I did the writings of ChNN is not recommending direct introduction neccessarily, Rinpoche is no longer in this sphere. I was recommending them based on his clear presentation of Dzogchen (and the OP's stated interest in Dzogchen) which in my personal opinion is completely unique in it's qualities. So recommending teachers is, for me at least, also recommending their overall presentation of the whole path, including preliminaries.

As far as Uncommon Ngondro, neither lineage I have been closest to emphasizes them much (ChNN barely at all, Sakya pays it lip service, but it is not a pre requisite for anything, nor is it emphasized by my Sakya teachers) so it is not something I personally have much experience with, it has not been a big part of my Dharma education. I'm sure that's strange to people from the more traditional Kagyu/Nyingma where it is so vital and expected, but there you go.

I would say that my main Sakya teachers have emphasized Bodhisattvayana teachings to a degree that they are pretty much the Ngondro pre-Tantra. The people on the "standard track" spent years on them before they started practicing HYT. I don't know if this is common with other Sakya teachers, or just my neck of the woods. Do I think everyone should practice those before empowerment or direct introduction? Not being a teacher myself, I have no opinion, and am not sure. This foundation has certainly benefited me. However, I am a Dharma mutt with multiple influences. So I'd just recommend the teachers, who have the attainment needed to lead people in the right direction with regard to to what teachings they should focus on, etc.

I don't have the capacity to tell people how they should enter Dharma practice. That isn't false modesty, I can be obnoxious, ignorant and overly-opinionated for sure, it's just true. I have no idea what a given individual should focus on, but I'm reasonably sure that qualified teachers will.

The OP asked in a subsequent post about specific recommendations for teachers, and that's what I was presenting. I think meeting the right teacher will unlock a lot more than anything forumlaic that I could say, and that doesn't necessarily have to do with direct introduction yet, it could be any teaching at all, Lojong, the Four Seals, The Four Noble Truths...whatever. I feel we get something from any direct Dharma teachings that we don't get from simply working with concepts on our own, though of course, that is just my own experience.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:35 pmIt depends totally on the person. However, recommending as I did the writings of ChNN is not recommending direct introduction neccessarily, Rinpoche is no longer in this sphere. I was recommending them based on his clear presentation of Dzogchen (and the OP's stated interest in Dzogchen) which in my personal opinion is completely unique in it's qualities. So recommending teachers is, for me at least, also recommending their overall presentation of the whole path, including preliminaries.
ChNN's book "The Crystal and the Way of Light" was what fed my desire to explore Vajrayana. The Tibetan Book of the Dead definitely initially tweaked my interest, but ChNN's book...
mind blown.jpg
mind blown.jpg (48.88 KiB) Viewed 632 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Lama Tsultrim Allione will be teaching on Ösel Nyingthig ngöndro, she says the ngöndro is extremely connected with dzogchen teachings. Later she will teach on other parts of the very fresh new cycle. If you can connect with that. I myself would like to connect but times are hard and my daily practice log is full. So this is my advice.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:18 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:35 pmIt depends totally on the person. However, recommending as I did the writings of ChNN is not recommending direct introduction neccessarily, Rinpoche is no longer in this sphere. I was recommending them based on his clear presentation of Dzogchen (and the OP's stated interest in Dzogchen) which in my personal opinion is completely unique in it's qualities. So recommending teachers is, for me at least, also recommending their overall presentation of the whole path, including preliminaries.
ChNN's book "The Crystal and the Way of Light" was what fed my desire to explore Vajrayana. The Tibetan Book of the Dead definitely initially tweaked my interest, but ChNN's book...

mind blown.jpg
Same here, it really shifted things for me. Also one of my favorite Tim and Eric skits;)
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?

Post by Matt J »

Stream entry is the destruction of the first three fetters (out of ten). They are: belief in a self, attachment to rites and rituals, and doubt. Realizing anatta (no self) will cut through the belief in a self, and by so doing will eliminate doubt and attachments to rites and rituals.

But that is Theravada. In Mahayana, the most important concept in my mind is emptiness.
NateLeo wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:40 am Evening again,

Since i recently got started in Buddhism, i been reading alot lately, but i just got the sudden need to slow down.
I have a bad habit of jumping into things and trying to absorb so many of the advanced concepts first, and i need to stop that.

That being said, i feel like I've overloaded myself with so many concepts and i realize i need to just keep it simple with a set foundation.

So i want to know: what exactly is the first, most fundamental concept i need to realize first if i atleast want to reach the first stage of awakening in this life?
Thanks again!
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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