Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

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ford_truckin
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by ford_truckin »

Simon E. wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:45 am The Vipaka from shooting a man is likely to be experienced as negative.
No, it depends on what your intention is behind shooting the man. If you are shooting the man so he doesn't rape your wife and steal your belongings then your intention is good, resulting in neutral or positive vipaka. If your intention is to shoot a man because you want to rape his wife and steal his belongings, then yes that would be negative vipaka for sure. Intention is the key factor.
tkp67
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by tkp67 »

what about good intent that is based on delusion

shooting a man who breaks into the house out of fear of raping wife and taking belongings who happens to be drunk thinking he was entering his own house when he entered one's own home.

When the truth is realized how does acting out of delusion even in good intent nullify the negative consequences?

I was under the impression that we should not give rise to self in an act of good intent because when coupled with delusion that action of good intent can still result in suffering.
Simon E.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Simon E. »

Shooting someone with intent to to kill or maim will result in negative vipaka, no matter what the provocation.
There is no referee. Actions have consequences.
If you push a pendulum away from you it will return under its own momentum.
Karma/ Vipaka does not operate under the direction of some kind of moral source. It is a law. Like gravity.
This is basic stuff and easily checked.
The vipaka from an act of self defence or to defend others will be mixed, but will have a strong negative component. The intent to defend will be concomitant with the intent to kill or maim.
Vipaka from murder of an innocent will be overwhelmingly negative
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by practitioner »

Also worth considering the second part of the hypothetical. “... and steal my belongings”

Shooting someone because they are stealing your stuff means you value your stuff more than you value their life. Clearly this would be negative karma.
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Simon E. »

Karma Vipaka is posited largely on intent. So your value system is only relevant to the degree that it reflects your intention.

Vipaka is generated by intentional action ( karma )
Karma is the CAUSE not the effect. The effect is Vipaka.

Vipaka is created by intentional action.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Simon E. wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:17 pmShooting someone with intent to to kill or maim will result in negative vipaka, no matter what the provocation.
AFAIK "karma is intentional" is a refrain from EBT studies. So much so that Ven Sujāto's translation of the Pāli Dharmapada, instead of opening with "The mind is the forerunner," starts:
Intention is the forerunner of all things;
intention’s their master, they’re made by intention.
Intention in the above is "mano/manas" in the above. Does that mean "intention?" Well, that is a debate right there.

It is something, as I understand it, of an EBT crowd doctrinal point that no matter what the action, if it has positive intention, it has positive results, negative intention, bad karma.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Simon E. »

Too simple.
Most action results from unclear and mixed intentions resulting in mixed vipaka.
It’s takes one pointedness of mind to create 100% positive vipaka OR 100% negative vipaka.

Most of us are not yet capable of the former, and fortunately most of us are also incapable of the latter.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Simon E. wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:31 pm Too simple.
I generally agree.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by seeker242 »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:43 pm
seeker242 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:08 pm How do you know what your "well deserved bad karma" is to begin with?
remorse regarding actions that gave rise to unreasonable pain and suffering that where not understood at the time they occurred yet the causation of which some time after cannot be denied.

A father abandoning a child for selfish reasons who later on realized the errors of their ways might serve as an example.

In this scenario does resisting it them become a forceful attempt to reconcile? Or does resisting it mean loss of expectation in order to cease further negative causation?
I was thinking more about previous lifetimes ripening rather than stuff you actually remember doing. For example, you were a stingy ass in a previous life and because of that, in this life someone comes to rob you of all your stuff. How do you know that actually being robbed, and actually losing all your stuff, is the full ripening of that karma? How do you know that just an attempted robbing of your stuff, with you having to make great efforts to stop them and being successful, how do you know that situation isn't the full ripening? It could easily be, especially so if you are now practicing well and being generous, etc.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by tkp67 »

seeker242 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:55 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:43 pm
seeker242 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:08 pm How do you know what your "well deserved bad karma" is to begin with?
remorse regarding actions that gave rise to unreasonable pain and suffering that where not understood at the time they occurred yet the causation of which some time after cannot be denied.

A father abandoning a child for selfish reasons who later on realized the errors of their ways might serve as an example.

In this scenario does resisting it them become a forceful attempt to reconcile? Or does resisting it mean loss of expectation in order to cease further negative causation?
I was thinking more about previous lifetimes ripening rather than stuff you actually remember doing. For example, you were a stingy ass in a previous life and because of that, in this life someone comes to rob you of all your stuff. How do you know that actually being robbed, and actually losing all your stuff, is the full ripening of that karma? How do you know that just an attempted robbing of your stuff, with you having to make great efforts to stop them and being successful, how do you know that situation isn't the full ripening? It could easily be, especially so if you are now practicing well and being generous, etc.
Right on. I thought in similar terms but I did not put any direct correlation to karma.

In my mind the cause of the robber could be a number of factors outside of my direct control but the response to his actions are still mine to bear.

If I presume his guilt or mine as leading to this point I manifest cause for either of more negative karma. If I approach it from the seat of empty conscious before any rise of mind and simply attempt to negotiate a less violent end to the situation to elevate escalation and end the experience as quickly as possible.

Of course this is simply and lacks many nuances real life example might offer.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by TrimePema »

dude wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:49 am is that from a sutra or someone's opinion?
a treatise compiled from sutras...
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by TrimePema »

ford_truckin wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:34 pm
Simon E. wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:45 am The Vipaka from shooting a man is likely to be experienced as negative.
No, it depends on what your intention is behind shooting the man. If you are shooting the man so he doesn't rape your wife and steal your belongings then your intention is good, resulting in neutral or positive vipaka. If your intention is to shoot a man because you want to rape his wife and steal his belongings, then yes that would be negative vipaka for sure. Intention is the key factor.
that's not what the teachings say. that's not how "good" is defined within the laws of karma. think of the causes of suffering.

why dont you want your wife to be raped and your belongings to be stolen?
if your intention is attachment, because you love your pure wife, you love your belongings and so forth, then shooting this man is unbelievably negative.

If you shoot a man with the intention of liberating him from the confines of the vipaka of his intention to do such a thing, in order to release him into a buddhafield with the power of your meditation - then that is different. you and i likely cant do that, so dont worry about it.


You're thinking of good and bad karma, really there are 3 types. Karma leading to 3 higher realms, karma leading to 3 lower realms, and positive force from meditative concentration.

Unless your actions are done from the intention of creating positive force from meditative concentration for the benefit of at least yourself but also potentially for others/all beings and yourself, then they are only leading to more and more rebirths.

How many times do you want to go around the wheel? I'm on 370,000,000 at least.
TrimePema
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by TrimePema »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:00 am
seeker242 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:55 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:43 pm

remorse regarding actions that gave rise to unreasonable pain and suffering that where not understood at the time they occurred yet the causation of which some time after cannot be denied.

A father abandoning a child for selfish reasons who later on realized the errors of their ways might serve as an example.

In this scenario does resisting it them become a forceful attempt to reconcile? Or does resisting it mean loss of expectation in order to cease further negative causation?
I was thinking more about previous lifetimes ripening rather than stuff you actually remember doing. For example, you were a stingy ass in a previous life and because of that, in this life someone comes to rob you of all your stuff. How do you know that actually being robbed, and actually losing all your stuff, is the full ripening of that karma? How do you know that just an attempted robbing of your stuff, with you having to make great efforts to stop them and being successful, how do you know that situation isn't the full ripening? It could easily be, especially so if you are now practicing well and being generous, etc.
Right on. I thought in similar terms but I did not put any direct correlation to karma.

In my mind the cause of the robber could be a number of factors outside of my direct control but the response to his actions are still mine to bear.

If I presume his guilt or mine as leading to this point I manifest cause for either of more negative karma. If I approach it from the seat of empty conscious before any rise of mind and simply attempt to negotiate a less violent end to the situation to elevate escalation and end the experience as quickly as possible.

Of course this is simply and lacks many nuances real life example might offer.
If you approach from sunyata then why would you try to negotiate anything? You would dissolve your body into light and go right to a pure land when he stabbed you and the joke would be on him! Then he'd accumulate the karma of his connection with sending you to the pure land and his liberation would be assured.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

The Wheel of Sharp Weapons helps make good use of bad karma :thumbsup:
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by haha »

Viach wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?
You will find few people define Karma as the action. As resources are easily available, we can check their definition with scriptural sources.

What does it mean Karma in Buddhist sense? Somewhere Tathagata has said Karma is Kusala (wholesome) and Akusala (unwholesome) Cetana (volition). Based on abhidharma (i.e. Sravaka or Theravada), one can say that all Cetanas are not Karma. You should check out; only cetana accompanies with 29 kinds of consciousness (citta) is called Karma (i.e. Kusala, Akusal, Rupa, and Arupa). (If I am not correct, I am happy to be corrected.)

During the robbery, you are going to experience vipaka (result) of your past Karma. That robber is creating new Karma. If you are going to confront and kill him, then you are also creating new Karma. Householders or lay people not creating Karma is very hard thing. It also means that one will not be mindful even for first noble truth and its four characteristics. When there is killing, there is always pratigha, whichever way one chooses to justify. You are experiencing the Vipaka (result) and it does not produce the Karma. Your cetana or state of mind at that moment will produce new karma.

Based on one popular story, Boddhisattva killed a pirate and chose to reborn in hell as the merit was greater. However, he did welfare to his crew and that pirate but he also accumulated negative karma.

For your case, the protagonist is ready to kill the robber because of his attachment to the property (i.e. subtle level). The protagonist is confronting due to the fear of idea of past karma (i.e. gross level).

If one is not experiencing the result, then one can deal with the karma. It means that one can purify, minimize the intensity, or destroy.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Simon E. »

Karma is not THE action.Karma (Sanskrit from the root kr meaning to do , to act) Kamma (Pali) Las (Tibetan). Is action, to act.
The result of Karma is Karmaphala ‘the fruit of action’ or Karmavipaka ‘the maturing of action’.
What determines action? Cetana..intention.
Ergo; Cetana determines karmaphala or karmavipaka. Or in English, intention determines the fruit or maturation of action.

This is an absolutely basic Buddhist axiom, and apparently an axiom that needs frequent repetition to counteract Hindu, Jain, or homemade definitions of karma... :shrug:
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by tkp67 »

TrimePema wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:25 am If you approach from sunyata then why would you try to negotiate anything? You would dissolve your body into light and go right to a pure land when he stabbed you and the joke would be on him! Then he'd accumulate the karma of his connection with sending you to the pure land and his liberation would be assured.
Where do I start? According to my tradition I can find many reasons but I will leave it at why would I condemn someone to commit a heinous act as a means for their own enlightenment?

I should assume manifest destiny?

An what about faith in the transcendental powers of buddha? Why would I doubt that person's potential to realize Buddha in that moment without having to condemn them to that act?

Why would I deny them the loving kindness, compassion or even bliss? I am not here to judge, condemn or reside quietly in nirvana as a means to pass time til I my existence ceases. I shouldn't be attached to self in this situation, not to justice, not to right or wrong but to the condition that would drive them to do such a thing. Knowing this condition is due to lack of realization why would I dent them buddha's good medicine?

Why should I consider my debts to all the buddha's paid?

Ever moment is a moment of victory when the buddha nature is realized in any sentient being, there are many beings and much work to do. Every moment of life I am here in this saha world is a gift because liberation would mean nothing without suffering and life to be experience it and liberation.

Is liberation meant to be a means of escaping the reality of suffering so we can simply die disconnected from life thereafter? Or is it good medicine as a means to bring harmony to life on earth by dispelling the delusion of samsara and revealing nirvana as a state of mind to be enjoyed in life and celebrated while living. This state emanating so potently that it becomes part of the continuum of Buddha nature that the works to free sentient beings in the saha world from samsara. Living realization is critical in manifesting the buddha nature in us all.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

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ford_truckin wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:34 pm
Simon E. wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:45 am The Vipaka from shooting a man is likely to be experienced as negative.
No, it depends on what your intention is behind shooting the man. If you are shooting the man so he doesn't rape your wife and steal your belongings then your intention is good, resulting in neutral or positive vipaka. If your intention is to shoot a man because you want to rape his wife and steal his belongings, then yes that would be negative vipaka for sure. Intention is the key factor.
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Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

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Viach wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?
Good or bad, samara perpetuates.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by SteRo »

Viach wrote: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?
Intentionality causes experience. sometimes 'karma' denotes the cause, intentionality, and sometimes 'karma' denotes the effect, experience.
Maybe 'bad karma' stands for an unwanted experience? And maybe 'deserved' here is an expressions for mere causality?
Asuuming 2 x 'yes' the question 'Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?' actually is two questions:
1. Is it possible to avoid unwanted experience?
2. If yes, is the avoidance of an unwanted experience worth the avoidance?

As to 1. It isn't possible for spheres of experiences to avoid unwanted experience but it is possible to avoid being affected by unwanted experience.
Viach wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
Considering what has been said above if you are not affected by unwanted experience then that's actually not 'bad karma'. It is 'unwanted' only for the intellect but for feeling, for feeling its neutral experience.
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