Buddhism, and theistic religions.

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
tkp67
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by tkp67 »

jake wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:37 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:28 pm Just a reminder regarding the mind of people with perennial belief (regardless of how it takes shape) suffer ego death at the thought of pure mortality and not all people who practice religions that teach as much as being true versus allegorical to facilitate humanitarian values.
What?
sorry if it seems unclear as what is clear to me is often obtuse to others but as a matter of my own mind it isn't apparent.

The two major religions of the planet representing billions of people offer salvation from suffering through a belief life exists after death if one believes and earns merit.

The leaders condemn Buddhism because it SEEMS to run counter intuitively to the benefit of their belief (even though it offers a TRUE end of suffering)

Not all adherents of those religions believe the promise at face value or need it, the idea of humanitarian virtue in and of itself is enough although people like this have conviction that would benefit greatly on Buddhist teachings because they don't understand impermanence but know the alternative does not exists

Why does this matter at all here? well if we look to the Varjayana tradition to recognizing and protecting rise of ego during discourse. If we look here comparative talks have been removed for the same purpose.

I think the original statement that we don't need to put perrenialism in our own minds to respect it is amazingly poignant but this reasoning exists past those religions and it exist in the people themselves and is deeply tied to the ego who is afraid of mortality and whose attachment to those beliefs is so strong that the rise to ego it brings is impenetrable.

Are the words here to be an ivory tower for the adherents of Buddhism(it makes more sense as practice of emptiness sorry) alone or are they to be tempered with compassion for all without rise to our/their own ego or at least a mindful attempt to do so?

My appologies in advance if these words don't ring true in your mind as well as they do in mine.

PS FTR I have never for a moment felt this life was anything but unique and treated that way regardles of belief so I have no dog in this fight I just understand the hearts and minds of non Buddhist succinctly and care for their release from suffering as well as my own.
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Nemo
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by Nemo »

Dear Israelites,

Please murder a plethora of goats today and collect the blood in a large bowl. Take a brush and mark my sign above your doorways as I am going to murder all the male babies in the city tonight and in my bloodlust would hate to murder your babies too. Don't tell any of those filthy heathens OK? Otherwise I can't kill all their babies and that would SUCK!

Yours Always or I Will Kill You,

Jehovah
tkp67
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by tkp67 »

Do Buddhists really believe in contrarian mindsets or do they seek to achieve Bodhi which is void of mindsets including theist belief?

Seems formulating belief from one's dharma past one's own benefit in the process of practice is not beneficial to even talks that exist in Buddhist context alone so it isn't just a sensitivity to belief outside this community. I do think this is discussed in different verbiage here at points especially by those of more root traditions.

I think this is a universal challenge that is part of ego and the human condition not a stain that some have and some do no not so I hope it doesn't come off as critical either.

Is the thought of compassion for those who still suffer belief outside the context of compassion we should posses when seeking Bodhi

I think I have made sufficient of a point.

:namaste:
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by Caoimhghín »

Nemo wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:37 pm Dear Israelites,

Please murder a plethora of goats today and collect the blood in a large bowl. Take a brush and mark my sign above your doorways as I am going to murder all the male babies in the city tonight and in my bloodlust would hate to murder your babies too. Don't tell any of those filthy heathens OK? Otherwise I can't kill all their babies and that would SUCK!

Yours Always or I Will Kill You,

Jehovah
Dear Uthras,

I've CC'd you to this e-mail I just send the Israelites. Isn't it hilarious? I wonder if we should tell them that Pharaoh was just gonna let them all go without a hassle before we "hardened his heart?" (Exodus 9:12 paraphrase, see also Sūrat al-Baqarah 2:6-7)

Trololololo! #hilarious #bestprankever

-The Great Mana of the White Jordan
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by Caoimhghín »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:46 pm Do Buddhists really believe in contrarian mindsets or do they seek to achieve Bodhi which is void of mindsets including theist belief?
What do you mean by "believe in contrarian mindsets?"
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
mikenz66
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Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by mikenz66 »

Nemo wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:37 pm Dear Israelites,

Please murder a plethora of goats today and collect the blood in a large bowl. Take a brush and mark my sign above your doorways as I am going to murder all the male babies in the city tonight and in my bloodlust would hate to murder your babies too. Don't tell any of those filthy heathens OK? Otherwise I can't kill all their babies and that would SUCK!

Yours Always or I Will Kill You,

Jehovah
Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe said, “Man, you must be puttin' me on”
God say, “No.”
Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where you want this killin' done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61”
https://genius.com/Bob-dylan-highway-61 ... ted-lyrics
Dylan fans might appreciate this video: https://alldylan.com/bob-dylan-highway- ... 984-video/

:spy:
Mike
tkp67
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by tkp67 »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:08 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:46 pm Do Buddhists really believe in contrarian mindsets or do they seek to achieve Bodhi which is void of mindsets including theist belief?
What do you mean by "believe in contrarian mindsets?"
Being sure of how others interpret non Buddhist belief is putting life in that belief in one's own mind and still does not represent how that person may or may not interpret it.
tkp67
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Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by tkp67 »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:25 am
Nemo wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:37 pm Dear Israelites,

Please murder a plethora of goats today and collect the blood in a large bowl. Take a brush and mark my sign above your doorways as I am going to murder all the male babies in the city tonight and in my bloodlust would hate to murder your babies too. Don't tell any of those filthy heathens OK? Otherwise I can't kill all their babies and that would SUCK!

Yours Always or I Will Kill You,

Jehovah
Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe said, “Man, you must be puttin' me on”
God say, “No.”
Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where you want this killin' done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61”
https://genius.com/Bob-dylan-highway-61 ... ted-lyrics
Dylan fans might appreciate this video: https://alldylan.com/bob-dylan-highway- ... 984-video/

:spy:
Mike


god on my side has a strong message as well
dude
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by dude »

speaking of Dylan and religion :

Well, the rifleman's stalking the sick and the lame,
Preacherman seeks the same, who'll get there first is uncertain
Nightsticks and water cannons, tear gas, padlocks,
Molotov cocktails and rocks behind every curtain,
False-hearted judges dying in the webs that they spin,
Only a matter of time 'til night comes steppin' in

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Grigoris
Former staff member
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by Grigoris »

Enough of the Abrahamist bashing...

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
muni
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by muni »

Being sure of how others interpret non Buddhist belief is putting life in that belief in one's own mind and still does not represent how that person may or may not interpret it.
:good:
Our mind is colouring phenomena, not aware these characteristics could be just our own belief, which we hold onto as the truth.
At least some ideas are fine. As perhaps the idea of a Muslim friends' behaviour, what represents respect and tolerance.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
tkp67
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by tkp67 »

muni wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:38 am
Being sure of how others interpret non Buddhist belief is putting life in that belief in one's own mind and still does not represent how that person may or may not interpret it.
:good:
Our mind is colouring phenomena, not aware these characteristics could be just our own belief, which we hold onto as the truth.
At least some ideas are fine. As perhaps the idea of a Muslim friends' behaviour, what represents respect and tolerance.
True reality is revealed when we have no personal attachment to a phenomenon. This is why the same concepts reworded without attachments that give rise to ego in others is fine but the same discussion using words that tend to give rise to ego are not. Even then deviation from a teaching's perceived paradigm can gives rise to ego in self and/or others.

The point is true observable reality of the mind reveals all humans are subject to the same human nature under the same conditions and that nature while diverse in expression is either delusion or enlighten because they are both aspects of the same phenomenon.

It seems to me that because this is a practice of emptiness of self that it leaves people assuming it isn't equally a humanitarian practice. It may seem contrived but in an economy of words if it wasn't there would be no need for the 8 fold path but because in reality is it emptiness of self for the benefit of self and humanity not just for the benefit of self.
muni
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by muni »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:03 pm

True reality is revealed when we have no personal attachment to a phenomenon. This is why the same concepts reworded without attachments that give rise to ego in others is fine but the same discussion using words that tend to give rise to ego are not. Even then deviation from a teaching's perceived paradigm can gives rise to ego in self and/or others.

The point is true observable reality of the mind reveals all humans are subject to the same human nature under the same conditions and that nature while diverse in expression is either delusion or enlighten because they are both aspects of the same phenomenon.

It seems to me that because this is a practice of emptiness of self that it leaves people assuming it isn't equally a humanitarian practice. It may seem contrived but in an economy of words if it wasn't there would be no need for the 8 fold path but because in reality is it emptiness of self for the benefit of self and humanity not just for the benefit of self.
If it were not equal as humanitarian practice, teachings are to serve right selves only. And the 8 fold path would be rejected, the whole teachings of the Buddha would be very restricted elite classes, separate "of all". Perhaps we are in need then for a planet for ourselves.

How can "my empty view" be: all ice cubes melt in bright sunlight, while all those not like me, not. They are still ice cubes.

:crying:

How can a restriction be free from suffering, open Bodhicitta?
Last edited by muni on Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
tkp67
Posts: 2132
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by tkp67 »

muni wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:01 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:03 pm

True reality is revealed when we have no personal attachment to a phenomenon. This is why the same concepts reworded without attachments that give rise to ego in others is fine but the same discussion using words that tend to give rise to ego are not. Even then deviation from a teaching's perceived paradigm can gives rise to ego in self and/or others.

The point is true observable reality of the mind reveals all humans are subject to the same human nature under the same conditions and that nature while diverse in expression is either delusion or enlighten because they are both aspects of the same phenomenon.

It seems to me that because this is a practice of emptiness of self that it leaves people assuming it isn't equally a humanitarian practice. It may seem contrived but in an economy of words if it wasn't there would be no need for the 8 fold path but because in reality is it emptiness of self for the benefit of self and humanity not just for the benefit of self.
If it were not equal as humanitarian practice, teachings are to serve right selves only. And the 8 fold path would be rejected, the whole teachings of the Buddha would be very restricted elite classes, separate "of all". Perhaps we are in need of a planet for ourselves.

How can "my empty view" be: all ice cubes melt in bright sunlight, while all those not like me, not. They are still ice cubes. :crying:
I think the challenge in this, the degenerate age, is to maintain faith in the human condition that once freed of suffering (pr better put in the process of being freed from suffering) is capable of discerning the 8 fold path. It is harder to evoke compassion in others when even our electronic devices like cell phones have been designed to program dopamine release to reinforce instant gratification which reinforces subliminal rise of ego.

In short emptiness may be the last pathway to compassion and while compassion rightly drives us to be Bodhisattva it is important that we, keep in our minds, the pathway to compassion fully open so when their minds are ready to receive that transmission, they can.

I appreciate you taking the time to understand an issue important to me and my own views on the meaning of topics as these. It is very enriching to know I am not misinterpreting the need for equanimity. It helps to act as a mirror in regards to my interpretation of correct practice for my own validation.
muni
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by muni »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:26 pm It is harder to evoke compassion in others when even our electronic devices like cell phones have been designed to program dopamine release to reinforce instant gratification which reinforces subliminal rise of ego.
Very interesting.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
tkp67
Posts: 2132
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by tkp67 »

muni wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:26 pm It is harder to evoke compassion in others when even our electronic devices like cell phones have been designed to program dopamine release to reinforce instant gratification which reinforces subliminal rise of ego.
Very interesting.
for you my friend

Dopamine, Smartphones & You: A battle for your time

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2018/ ... ttle-time/
by Trevor Haynes
figures by Rebecca Clements

“I feel tremendous guilt,” admitted Chamath Palihapitiya, former Vice President of User Growth at Facebook, to an audience of Stanford students. He was responding to a question about his involvement in exploiting consumer behavior. “The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops that we have created are destroying how society works,” he explained. In Palihapitiya’s talk, he highlighted something most of us know but few really appreciate: smartphones and the social media platforms they support are turning us into bona fide addicts. While it’s easy to dismiss this claim as hyperbole, platforms like Facebook, Snapchat, and Instagram leverage the very same neural circuitry used by slot machines and cocaine to keep us using their products as much as possible. Taking a closer look at the underlying science may give you pause the next time you feel your pocket buzz.
muni
Posts: 4943
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.

Post by muni »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:41 pm
muni wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:26 pm It is harder to evoke compassion in others when even our electronic devices like cell phones have been designed to program dopamine release to reinforce instant gratification which reinforces subliminal rise of ego.
Very interesting.
for you my friend

Dopamine, Smartphones & You: A battle for your time

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2018/ ... ttle-time/
by Trevor Haynes
figures by Rebecca Clements

“I feel tremendous guilt,” admitted Chamath Palihapitiya, former Vice President of User Growth at Facebook, to an audience of Stanford students. He was responding to a question about his involvement in exploiting consumer behavior. “The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops that we have created are destroying how society works,” he explained. In Palihapitiya’s talk, he highlighted something most of us know but few really appreciate: smartphones and the social media platforms they support are turning us into bona fide addicts. While it’s easy to dismiss this claim as hyperbole, platforms like Facebook, Snapchat, and Instagram leverage the very same neural circuitry used by slot machines and cocaine to keep us using their products as much as possible. Taking a closer look at the underlying science may give you pause the next time you feel your pocket buzz.
Thank you for sharing.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
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