Best countries to expand buddhism?

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AkashicBrother
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

TrimePema wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 am You are trying to change karma without having the proper skills to help people. How do you know you will not harm them?
Your idea of "missionary" is really best understood in terms of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and their skills - which maybe you are or are not familiar with. Firstly, you should know, it is enough for people to make a good connection with the Dharma in this life. Secondly, you should know, this is, within Buddhism, an age of degeneration. Thirdly, you should know, what matters is not how many people are "buddhist" but how many are progressing on the paths and stages. As for which spiritual path is closer to the truth, the world doesnt work in such a way where anyone can simply debate another philosophy because people overcomplicate the subject matter. For example, you are speaking about statistics which are irrelevant to the goal of Buddhism and whether or not Buddhism persists in this specific world is also simply a matter of the merit of the beings who inhabit it and not a matter of the existential binary value of "Buddhism or No Buddhism."

You are failing to account for the Buddhist cosmology which entails many other worlds in similar and different states of degeneration or the time of Buddha and so on.

Your evaluation of what is happening on the surface level of what you call reality is not based on a scale undergirded by the understanding that each sentient being is none other than a future Buddha - it is not based in the Buddhist view, and yet you are considering the state of Buddhism.

I would argue against your idea that abrahamic religions are truly supplanting dharmic ones. What is happening is places in which devotees were merely culturally faithful are experiencing a change in culture. It does not actually affect the number of authentic practitioners in the world. What does affect the number of authentic practitioners are the secondary causes and conditions created by uninformed people becoming so-called Buddhist so-called Mindfulness so-called Meditation so-called Instructors and so on. IMO anyway.
Also, FWIW I admire that you have put so much thought into this. But I also encourage you to look a little bit at the views that we're displaying in an experiential, contemplative way and not write them off as idealistic because they have to do with Buddhist metaphysics.
I never said that i would be the missionary. these activities should be done by an organization, not by a single person. i know about the kali yuga, but i think world "destiny" can be changed by positive human activity.

you m isunderstood . I greatly value buddhist metaphysics and consider the texts of buddhism awesome, sacred wisdom. the metaphysical idealism has lots of value in terms of internal growth, i never denied that and im sorry if that was the impression i passed. but when it comes to external stuff , such as religious changes caused by material conditions that can be measured. it does not serve to be simply locked in contemplation, the causality is different. i think internal causality works in a different way than external causality. and there are objective material evidence for that,
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AkashicBrother
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:36 am There are countless Buddhist scriptures that discourage acting from impulses of dominating and beating others - including other religions.
Criticising wrong ideas that can be present in some aspects of specific religions, is not the same as attacking the practicioners of these religions as people. and there are many buddhist texts that do criticize other religions. there is a difference between ideas and the people who follow such ideas.
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Grigoris
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

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You continuously make sweeping generalisations and present no evidence to back your opinions. Why should anyone be taking you seriously?
Your critique is of a mis/un- informed caricature of what you believe Buddhism is and so your recommendations are irrelevant to the reality of the situation.

I would recommend you understand Buddhism first. This would require actually practicing and developing the fruits of a practice, since Buddhism is not a philosophy (as you claim it is) to be understood, but a practice to be experienced. A praxis would probably be the best descriptor.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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AkashicBrother
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:53 pm You continuously make sweeping generalisations and present no evidence to back your opinions. Why should anyone be taking you seriously?
Your critique is of a mis/un- informed caricature of what you believe Buddhism is...
Could you elaborate on that ?
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Grigoris
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Grigoris »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:49 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:53 pm You continuously make sweeping generalisations and present no evidence to back your opinions. Why should anyone be taking you seriously?
Your critique is of a mis/un- informed caricature of what you believe Buddhism is...
Could you elaborate on that ?
You want me to quote your posts back to you? It would be easier if you went back and reread them with a slightly more objective and critical eye.

I will give you an example: You say that Buddhist traditions need to be unified. Do you know why they are "seperated"?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to know "why?" before recommending "unity"?

It is like saying that football and basketball (both being ball games) should be unified so that they have a greater universal appeal. Only somebody that does not know football and basketball would make a recommendation like that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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rory
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by rory »

Has no one here ever heard of Soka Gakkai? The organization that has spread the Buddhadharma all over the world? I think it's absolutely admirable. And no coincidence that when I went to a local Soka Gakkai meeting some years ago in my area that 80% of the members there were Black, Indian, Hispanic and a big number blue collar. It was inspiring.
Akashic Brother ask forum moderator Queequeg about it and if you haven't seen this you might enjoy the film "What's Love Got To Do With It" about Tina Turner and how she turned her life around due to the power of the Lotus Sutra.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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AkashicBrother
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

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Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:17 pm
You want me to quote your posts back to you? It would be easier if you went back and reread them with a slightly more objective and critical eye.

I will give you an example: You say that Buddhist traditions need to be unified. Do you know why they are "seperated"?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to know "why?" before recommending "unity"?

Isnt it because the innovations introduced by the mahayana canonical texts were not accepted by the medieval theravadins of the time? things like making a bridge between atman and anatta trhough buddha nature concepts, which were not acccepted in theravada thought. its an example. but i think these differentiations can be surpassed nowadays by proper dialogue between mahayanists and theravadins. and probably no negative consequences would be generated by that.

Also, are you not interested to see if basketball-football unification will make the game cooler? :mrgreen:
Last edited by AkashicBrother on Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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AkashicBrother
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

rory wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:40 pm Has no one here ever heard of Soka Gakkai? The organization that has spread the Buddhadharma all over the world? I think it's absolutely admirable. And no coincidence that when I went to a local Soka Gakkai meeting some years ago in my area that 80% of the members there were Black, Indian, Hispanic and a big number blue collar. It was inspiring.
Akashic Brother ask forum moderator Queequeg about it and if you haven't seen this you might enjoy the film "What's Love Got To Do With It" about Tina Turner and how she turned her life around due to the power of the Lotus Sutra.
gassho
Rory
good posting, rory.
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Grigoris
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Grigoris »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:29 pmIsnt it because the innovations introduced by the mahayana canonical texts were not accepted by the medieval theravadins of the time? things like making a bridge between atman and anatta trhough buddha nature concepts, which were not acccepted in theravada thought.
If that is the narrative that spins your dials...
its an example. but i think these differentiations can be surpassed nowadays by proper dialogue between mahayanists and theravadins. and probably no negative consequences would be generated by that.
You really should do something about that obsessive/compulsive thought pattern.

I am not going to try and inform your ignorant view again...
Also, are you not interested to see if basketball-football unification will make the game cooler? :mrgreen:
Nope.

Out of interest: Which tradition do you practice in?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
TrimePema
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by TrimePema »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:39 pm
TrimePema wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 am You are trying to change karma without having the proper skills to help people. How do you know you will not harm them?
Your idea of "missionary" is really best understood in terms of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and their skills - which maybe you are or are not familiar with. Firstly, you should know, it is enough for people to make a good connection with the Dharma in this life. Secondly, you should know, this is, within Buddhism, an age of degeneration. Thirdly, you should know, what matters is not how many people are "buddhist" but how many are progressing on the paths and stages. As for which spiritual path is closer to the truth, the world doesnt work in such a way where anyone can simply debate another philosophy because people overcomplicate the subject matter. For example, you are speaking about statistics which are irrelevant to the goal of Buddhism and whether or not Buddhism persists in this specific world is also simply a matter of the merit of the beings who inhabit it and not a matter of the existential binary value of "Buddhism or No Buddhism."

You are failing to account for the Buddhist cosmology which entails many other worlds in similar and different states of degeneration or the time of Buddha and so on.

Your evaluation of what is happening on the surface level of what you call reality is not based on a scale undergirded by the understanding that each sentient being is none other than a future Buddha - it is not based in the Buddhist view, and yet you are considering the state of Buddhism.

I would argue against your idea that abrahamic religions are truly supplanting dharmic ones. What is happening is places in which devotees were merely culturally faithful are experiencing a change in culture. It does not actually affect the number of authentic practitioners in the world. What does affect the number of authentic practitioners are the secondary causes and conditions created by uninformed people becoming so-called Buddhist so-called Mindfulness so-called Meditation so-called Instructors and so on. IMO anyway.
Also, FWIW I admire that you have put so much thought into this. But I also encourage you to look a little bit at the views that we're displaying in an experiential, contemplative way and not write them off as idealistic because they have to do with Buddhist metaphysics.
I never said that i would be the missionary. these activities should be done by an organization, not by a single person. i know about the kali yuga, but i think world "destiny" can be changed by positive human activity.

you m isunderstood . I greatly value buddhist metaphysics and consider the texts of buddhism awesome, sacred wisdom. the metaphysical idealism has lots of value in terms of internal growth, i never denied that and im sorry if that was the impression i passed. but when it comes to external stuff , such as religious changes caused by material conditions that can be measured. it does not serve to be simply locked in contemplation, the causality is different. i think internal causality works in a different way than external causality. and there are objective material evidence for that,
There is no missionary organization because the success of one person taking the Buddhadharma into their own heart is their own connection with their own bodhichitta. The process of this is called gradual universal salvation. It is not not happening. Bodhisattvas and Buddhas accelerate it, but it really is something that happens internally. There is no organization that can help with this, in the sense that you mean it, which is a worldly samsaric organization. That is, unless you are speaking about, and this is my point, an organization of bodhisattvas. However, there is an organization of bodhisattvas which is their nonphysical minds constantly emanating enlightening influence and energy into the various worlds of sentient beings in various diversified and expedient ways.

What you are talking about is silly because samsaric organizations do not work to bring enlightening influence - it is not actually possible. This is also what I mean when I say you are not considering the Buddhist metaphysics properly.

You would be better served taking all your energy and putting it towards contemplating your own liberation for the benefit of others.

And FWIW within the kali yuga there is the kingdom of Shambhala. Nothing to worry about. Shambhala will come and then the golden age of dharma will dawn. It may disappear before that but that's okay. The dharma can never disappear from anyone's heart, therefore in future lives all beings can realize it. The main factor of helping them with that is actually becoming Buddhas ourselves and nothing else.
TrimePema
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by TrimePema »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:29 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:17 pm
You want me to quote your posts back to you? It would be easier if you went back and reread them with a slightly more objective and critical eye.

I will give you an example: You say that Buddhist traditions need to be unified. Do you know why they are "seperated"?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to know "why?" before recommending "unity"?

Isnt it because the innovations introduced by the mahayana canonical texts were not accepted by the medieval theravadins of the time? things like making a bridge between atman and anatta trhough buddha nature concepts, which were not acccepted in theravada thought. its an example. but i think these differentiations can be surpassed nowadays by proper dialogue between mahayanists and theravadins. and probably no negative consequences would be generated by that.

Also, are you not interested to see if basketball-football unification will make the game cooler? :mrgreen:
That is a historical objective perspective. Let me offer you a Buddhist metaphysics objective perspective.

1. Buddha is all knowing
2. Buddha teaches according to the needs of students
3. Students hear according to their needs
4. Every student has different needs
5. Student needs are divided into 3 vehicles that build on each other - that of individual liberation, universal salvation, and the fastest path to universal salvation
6. The words of the Buddha come down to the student, not the other way around. So those who understand the higher will understand the lower but those who are inclined only to understand the lower will only understand the higher in terms of the lower.

You must understand the difference between a practitioner and that practitioners family or caste.
Every sentient being has a family or caste of understanding. They are hinayana people, mahayana people, undecided people, people with no family, and people of the highest family (if im remembering correctly).
However, just because one is a hinayana person, does not mean one will be practicing theravada. It can mean one is practicing Mahamudra or Zen but from a hinayana perspective and their realization will only ever be hinayana realization until they progress to the mahayana. Everyone goes through this, but in different lives at different times. Of course, its possible to go through it all in one lifetime as well.
What brings someone from one class to the other? Strength of compassion.
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AkashicBrother
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:52 pm
I am not going to try and inform your ignorant view again...
what is ignorant? do you have any logical reason to desire the ancient division of mahayana and theravada be mantained , instead of seeking unity ? what would be the negative consequence of such unity ? also, doesnt calling others names violate the rules of the community?
Last edited by AkashicBrother on Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AkashicBrother
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

TrimePema wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:04 pm That is a historical objective perspective. Let me offer you a Buddhist metaphysics objective perspective.

1. Buddha is all knowing
2. Buddha teaches according to the needs of students
3. Students hear according to their needs
4. Every student has different needs
5. Student needs are divided into 3 vehicles that build on each other - that of individual liberation, universal salvation, and the fastest path to universal salvation
6. The words of the Buddha come down to the student, not the other way around. So those who understand the higher will understand the lower but those who are inclined only to understand the lower will only understand the higher in terms of the lower.

You must understand the difference between a practitioner and that practitioners family or caste.
Every sentient being has a family or caste of understanding. They are hinayana people, mahayana people, undecided people, people with no family, and people of the highest family (if im remembering correctly).
However, just because one is a hinayana person, does not mean one will be practicing theravada. It can mean one is practicing Mahamudra or Zen but from a hinayana perspective and their realization will only ever be hinayana realization until they progress to the mahayana. Everyone goes through this, but in different lives at different times. Of course, its possible to go through it all in one lifetime as well.
What brings someone from one class to the other? Strength of compassion.

but cant a theravada teacher by enligtened at the same level of a mahayana teacher? and why do you consider the sangha organisations to be samsaric ? isnt the sangha one of the 3 jewels? so what is the problem of sangha doing missionary activity since that was done historically?

But i undestood what you mean and i thank for your patience. from what i understood your point is that the dharma can not be destroyed. even after the earth end the dharma will be mantained because its part of the essence of the universe. was that your line of thinking? if its it has valid points.

going to leave the internet for now. thanks
TrimePema
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by TrimePema »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:40 pm
TrimePema wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:04 pm That is a historical objective perspective. Let me offer you a Buddhist metaphysics objective perspective.

1. Buddha is all knowing
2. Buddha teaches according to the needs of students
3. Students hear according to their needs
4. Every student has different needs
5. Student needs are divided into 3 vehicles that build on each other - that of individual liberation, universal salvation, and the fastest path to universal salvation
6. The words of the Buddha come down to the student, not the other way around. So those who understand the higher will understand the lower but those who are inclined only to understand the lower will only understand the higher in terms of the lower.

You must understand the difference between a practitioner and that practitioners family or caste.
Every sentient being has a family or caste of understanding. They are hinayana people, mahayana people, undecided people, people with no family, and people of the highest family (if im remembering correctly).
However, just because one is a hinayana person, does not mean one will be practicing theravada. It can mean one is practicing Mahamudra or Zen but from a hinayana perspective and their realization will only ever be hinayana realization until they progress to the mahayana. Everyone goes through this, but in different lives at different times. Of course, its possible to go through it all in one lifetime as well.
What brings someone from one class to the other? Strength of compassion.

but cant a theravada teacher by enligtened at the same level of a mahayana teacher? and why do you consider the sangha organisations to be samsaric ? isnt the sangha one of the 3 jewels? so what is the problem of sangha doing missionary activity since that was done historically?

But i undestood what you mean and i thank for your patience. from what i understood your point is that the dharma can not be destroyed. even after the earth end the dharma will be mantained because its part of the essence of the universe. was that your line of thinking? if its it has valid points.

going to leave the internet for now. thanks
Yes that is the underlying meaning. But more so it is that you can use your motivation to save the dharma to turn your mind towards attaining enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.

In theory, a theravada teacher can be enlightened at the same level as a mahayana teacher - but those teachers would be following the Mahayana precepts of outward hinayana, inner mahayana... it is not possible to reach the same level of enlightenment of the Buddha without first attaining Mahayana realization of bodhichitta at the ultimate level.

The sangha part of the 3 jewels really refers to the Bodhisattvas and Arhats. Arhats do not have the same powers as Bodhisattvas nor do they have an understanding of emptiness which is one aspect of the essence of reality, although they abide in nirvana, which itself has levels and the level of the arhat's nirvana is not the ultimate level of nirvana, although the Buddha also reached that too and is therefore referred to as The Arhat Bodhisattva Mahasattva Samhyaksam Buddha and so on.

People CAN do it. It's fine. Here is the thing... since the essential meaning and entire point of Buddhadharma is as you say the essence of the universe (and the realization of that), what matters is not whether or not a sentient being meets a missionary and becomes Buddhist (which is the point of missions - conversion) but rather that they realize that essence themselves, which nobody - not even the Buddha - can do for them or make them do. It is reliant on their own karma. In this sense, showing a sentient being the path is best. So an act of compassion with correct motivation is a greater missionary activity than converting someone arbitrarily. If a sentient being is connected to the Buddhadharma, they will be inspired by compassion and take refuge. For this, and to this end, it is imperative there are (Western-defined) Sanghas - communities in which these sentient beings can become true practitioners which is what refuge really means -> going in the right direction. We TAKE ourselves in the right direction. Someone can say "i'm going this way..." and we can be inspired by that, but we have to take ourselves whichever way that is - that person can say "i'm going this way, come with me" but it will never matter how many times they say it or in which way they say it because the safe direction of refuge is something that each being has to take for themselves. That's why they call it "seizing the fortress of enlightenment" and a practitioner a "warrior/brave one" and engaging the true activity of the Bodhisattvas for the benefit of all sentient beings without exclusion, in the face of overwhelming and endlessly complicated webs of suffering, being a "hero".
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Grigoris
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Grigoris »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:37 pmwhat is ignorant? do you have any logical reason to desire the ancient division of mahayana and theravada be mantained , instead of seeking unity ? what would be the negative consequence of such unity ? also, doesnt calling others names violate the rules of the community?
I have explained to you three times in two different discussions (including this one) that Buddhists across different traditions are ALREADY working towards mutual respect and understanding. Just because you are blissfully unaware of it (ignorant, lacking knowledge a descriptor of your condition and not name calling) does not mean it is not happening, nor are they waiting for you to tell them to do it.

And yes, I do have a logical reason to desire, what you perceive as, a "division" to exist: it is called different strokes for different folks. 84,000 doors each of which leads to the Dharma. Varieties of karmic propensities is another name for it.

Are you understanding yet?

Are you actually listening to what everybody is saying in this discussion?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Grigoris »

rory wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:40 pm Has no one here ever heard of Soka Gakkai? The organization that has spread the Buddhadharma all over the world? I think it's absolutely admirable. And no coincidence that when I went to a local Soka Gakkai meeting some years ago in my area that 80% of the members there were Black, Indian, Hispanic and a big number blue collar. It was inspiring.
Akashic Brother ask forum moderator Queequeg about it and if you haven't seen this you might enjoy the film "What's Love Got To Do With It" about Tina Turner and how she turned her life around due to the power of the Lotus Sutra.
gassho
Rory
SGI has 12,000,000 followers (according to the organisation) worldwide.

There are 535,000,000 Buddhists worldwide.

There are 2.18 billion Christians
There are over 2 billion Muslims
There are 1.1 billion people following Hindu religions.

SGI, crushing it on the missionary front! :?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by TrimePema »

TrimePema wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:00 am
AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:40 pm
TrimePema wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:04 pm That is a historical objective perspective. Let me offer you a Buddhist metaphysics objective perspective.

1. Buddha is all knowing
2. Buddha teaches according to the needs of students
3. Students hear according to their needs
4. Every student has different needs
5. Student needs are divided into 3 vehicles that build on each other - that of individual liberation, universal salvation, and the fastest path to universal salvation
6. The words of the Buddha come down to the student, not the other way around. So those who understand the higher will understand the lower but those who are inclined only to understand the lower will only understand the higher in terms of the lower.

You must understand the difference between a practitioner and that practitioners family or caste.
Every sentient being has a family or caste of understanding. They are hinayana people, mahayana people, undecided people, people with no family, and people of the highest family (if im remembering correctly).
However, just because one is a hinayana person, does not mean one will be practicing theravada. It can mean one is practicing Mahamudra or Zen but from a hinayana perspective and their realization will only ever be hinayana realization until they progress to the mahayana. Everyone goes through this, but in different lives at different times. Of course, its possible to go through it all in one lifetime as well.
What brings someone from one class to the other? Strength of compassion.

but cant a theravada teacher by enligtened at the same level of a mahayana teacher? and why do you consider the sangha organisations to be samsaric ? isnt the sangha one of the 3 jewels? so what is the problem of sangha doing missionary activity since that was done historically?

But i undestood what you mean and i thank for your patience. from what i understood your point is that the dharma can not be destroyed. even after the earth end the dharma will be mantained because its part of the essence of the universe. was that your line of thinking? if its it has valid points.

going to leave the internet for now. thanks
Yes that is the underlying meaning. But more so it is that you can use your motivation to save the dharma to turn your mind towards attaining enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.

In theory, a theravada teacher can be enlightened at the same level as a mahayana teacher - but those teachers would be following the Mahayana precepts of outward hinayana, inner mahayana... it is not possible to reach the same level of enlightenment of the Buddha without first attaining Mahayana realization of bodhichitta at the ultimate level.

The sangha part of the 3 jewels really refers to the Bodhisattvas and Arhats. Arhats do not have the same powers as Bodhisattvas nor do they have an understanding of emptiness which is one aspect of the essence of reality, although they abide in nirvana, which itself has levels and the level of the arhat's nirvana is not the ultimate level of nirvana, although the Buddha also reached that too and is therefore referred to as The Arhat Bodhisattva Mahasattva Samhyaksam Buddha and so on.

People CAN do it. It's fine. Here is the thing... since the essential meaning and entire point of Buddhadharma is as you say the essence of the universe (and the realization of that), what matters is not whether or not a sentient being meets a missionary and becomes Buddhist (which is the point of missions - conversion) but rather that they realize that essence themselves, which nobody - not even the Buddha - can do for them or make them do. It is reliant on their own karma. In this sense, showing a sentient being the path is best. So an act of compassion with correct motivation is a greater missionary activity than converting someone arbitrarily. If a sentient being is connected to the Buddhadharma, they will be inspired by compassion and take refuge. For this, and to this end, it is imperative there are (Western-defined) Sanghas - communities in which these sentient beings can become true practitioners which is what refuge really means -> going in the right direction. We TAKE ourselves in the right direction. Someone can say "i'm going this way..." and we can be inspired by that, but we have to take ourselves whichever way that is - that person can say "i'm going this way, come with me" but it will never matter how many times they say it or in which way they say it because the safe direction of refuge is something that each being has to take for themselves. That's why they call it "seizing the fortress of enlightenment" and a practitioner a "warrior/brave one" and engaging the true activity of the Bodhisattvas for the benefit of all sentient beings without exclusion, in the face of overwhelming and endlessly complicated webs of suffering, being a "hero".
To be clear, actually it does matter how many times and in what ways one says "im going this way come with me" but only a Buddha knows for sure the propensities of sentient beings and how to lead them. What I mean is, nobody, not even Buddha, can force another being to take refuge in their heart, one can only lead them to realize that themselves through their own door which is one of 84,000 (read: A LOT).
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SonamTashi
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by SonamTashi »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:37 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:52 pm
I am not going to try and inform your ignorant view again...
what is ignorant? do you have any logical reason to desire the ancient division of mahayana and theravada be mantained , instead of seeking unity ? what would be the negative consequence of such unity ? also, doesnt calling others names violate the rules of the community?
Just in case it hasn't been stressed enough or isn't clear enough, there is in fact a very specific reason this "division" exists, and it has been mentioned several times in this thread. That reason is this: Theravada (or more properly Hinayana) and Mahayana have different goals--personal enlightenment and the enlightenment of all sentient beings respectively, and different people are attracted to either or for different reasons, and it is important these attractions and needs are met. Even more broadly, each individual school of Mahayana, Vajrayana etc. attracts different people for different reasons. Trying to mash them all together doesn't do any good for anybody. The individual goals, qualities, and diversity of each school is exactly what is so great about Buddhism. Should there be a certain amount of mutual respect, admiration and working together in certain contexts? Of course. But as Grigoris said, this is already happening. It seems you think there is a high degree of sectarianism amongst the different Buddhist schools, but in my opinion and experience this is not the case. In fact, in general the most sectarian individuals tend to be the ones who do not officially belong to a specific school or who have never had a teacher--so it is often a result of being on the outside looking in. This is what I mean by projection. It is something that new Buddhists sometimes see at the beginning, something they perhaps bring along from a previous tradition, but as time goes on they tend to see the issue isn't as big as it first appears.

I agree with Trime that more important and more effective than missionary work is compassion and taking refuge. If Buddhists were to have "missions" of any kind, I would like to see service missions--i.e. soup kitchens, disaster relief, etc. In my experience, this kind of compassionate activity is one of the best ways to attract interested folks and promote a positive image of Buddhism. However, for the vast majority of sanghas in the West, the resources for these kinds of efforts are severely lacking. Many sanghas barely even have enough money to get by. This is another reason that missionary activities aimed at conversion are unsuitable for at least the time being. Missions cost a lot of money. If you really want to support the growth of Buddhism, support your local sanghas. Donate your time and money. When a sangha suddenly appeared in my town (the first in my area) I was quick to support it (especially after seeing the quality of the individuals and teachers) because I knew it was such a rare and precious thing, I didn't want it to disappear. This is the best thing you can do to spread the dharma, outside of your own development as a practitioner of course.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

:good: Great posting Sonam.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Simon E.
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Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Simon E. »

The question of what might be called Buddhist Ecumenicism crops up regularly. I remember it being a favourite hobbyhorse of a certain prolific member of the old E Sangha. That member would get very cross if the basic concept was questioned.
The appeal is understandable. It feels good to be all just folks together. But as others have pointed out, the various schools have evolved in response to various needs. They could be seen as the grace of the Buddhas manifesting in response to diverse humanity. Perhaps we should celebrate that diversity rather than attempt to smooth it out. Both triumphalism and the creation of a melange are equally undesirable in my view.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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