Best countries to expand buddhism?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2353
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

:good: :twothumbsup: A reason to rejoice. :thanks:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
User avatar
AkashicBrother
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

A great unifyed buddhist organization would not be a bad thing as long as its not the ONLY buddhist path/school. in christianity catholic church is big but its not the only christian organization. in fact there are several christian organizations with great numbers that are not catholic.
User avatar
SonamTashi
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:30 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by SonamTashi »

Have you considered the possibility that the giant divisions you see in Buddhism are merely your own projection? To be honest, I don't see the kind of division you seem to see. As others have said, the Buddha taught different dharma doors for different people. Personally, I don't experience much conflict between the different schools. People gravitate toward what works for them, and the current composition of schools seems to work wonderfully for that. I don't see why any of that should have to change. Any Buddhist should be rejoicing in the merit of the practitioners of our brothers and sisters in other schools--that is literally part of the practice. As such, I think this talk of divisions is unmerited.

Also, as I've said at least a couple times on this site, missionary activity does not work, at least in this day and age. Did it work at the time of Ashoka? Apparently. And so maybe for the time it was the correct method or skillful means. But I do not think it is appropriate in this day and age. From personal experience and from what I know of churches that carry out missionary activities, such methods simply do not work for anything except to drive people away. For example, as a former Mormon I know that retention of converts is terrible, almost impossible (in fact almost all church growth is through the birthrate). In South America Mormons will have wards and steaks consisting of 500 people, but only a couple or a few dozen show up. In fact, many of the people in this situation do not even know that they are Mormon. I'd be willing to bet it is a similar situation with Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelical Christians, etc. and I'm willing to bet the same would happen with Buddhism--and they'd be lucky to even get that much out of it. In the meantime such activities could tarnish the reputation of Buddhism across the world. There's a reason people have a negative view towards missionaries and their causes.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:
TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by TrimePema »

AkashicBrother wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:09 pm Which countries could be best for buddhist missionary activity ? the more obvious answer in my view is latin america (specially mexico , perhaps brazil and the caribbean countries) and oceania, plus the traditional missionary activities in the west. but there is also space in unlikely countries like some places in africa and even in central asia ( modern kazakhstan is now a very very secular and open country) and russia (which has buddhist majority states, but they need more development , like places for monk graduation). it would also be great if the situation of buddhist reduction in japan and south korea be reversed somehow. and the growth in china be increased further.
are you a buddhist?

why do you think buddhism needs some kind of expansion when we are in Shakyamuni's buddhafield?
User avatar
AkashicBrother
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

yeah. buddhism originally was for missionary activity. buddha created a religious school of thoought modelled on jainism with the objective of reforming jain and hindu thought. there were periods in indian history were buddhism became the main philosophy in india. missionary activity was done by buddhists through most of asia and the middle east. so, what i said is not contradictory.

the divisions are not just my impression. it is a fact that even in national scale buddhism is very unecessarily divided.
User avatar
AkashicBrother
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

SonamTashi wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:32 pm Have you considered the possibility that the giant divisions you see in Buddhism are merely your own projection? To be honest, I don't see the kind of division you seem to see. As others have said, the Buddha taught different dharma doors for different people. Personally, I don't experience much conflict between the different schools. People gravitate toward what works for them, and the current composition of schools seems to work wonderfully for that. I don't see why any of that should have to change. Any Buddhist should be rejoicing in the merit of the practitioners of our brothers and sisters in other schools--that is literally part of the practice. As such, I think this talk of divisions is unmerited.

Also, as I've said at least a couple times on this site, missionary activity does not work, at least in this day and age. Did it work at the time of Ashoka? Apparently. And so maybe for the time it was the correct method or skillful means. But I do not think it is appropriate in this day and age. From personal experience and from what I know of churches that carry out missionary activities, such methods simply do not work for anything except to drive people away. For example, as a former Mormon I know that retention of converts is terrible, almost impossible (in fact almost all church growth is through the birthrate). In South America Mormons will have wards and steaks consisting of 500 people, but only a couple or a few dozen show up. In fact, many of the people in this situation do not even know that they are Mormon. I'd be willing to bet it is a similar situation with Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelical Christians, etc. and I'm willing to bet the same would happen with Buddhism--and they'd be lucky to even get that much out of it. In the meantime such activities could tarnish the reputation of Buddhism across the world. There's a reason people have a negative view towards missionaries and their causes.
Its not my personal opinion. buddhism and hinduism are way more divided than christianity and islam and thats the reason of why its shrinking. In relation to missionary activity. i gotta disagree with you because there are examples in modern hitory of it working. in australia for example buddhism is growing for some reason. and when i say missionary activity i say by peaceful means. than how this could tarnish the reputation of buddhism?
Tenma
Posts: 1077
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Tenma »

Yes it is sad people are leaving dharma, but in korea the main reason for people leaving is that the priests there are corrupted as all hell. So kinda their own doing. In Himalayan region missionaries offer people money and medications and promise them god knows what. So kinda shady. As Garchen Rinpoche said leave worrying about the future of the lineages to the heads of the lineages and worry about your own practice.
[/quote]

Mind if I may know on the corrupt Korean priests? I've never heard about this.

And Himalayan missionaries? Why is there a need for Buddhist missionaries there (unless you're talking about Christian ones)? May I see an example of their promises, please?
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5109
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by conebeckham »

AkashicBrother wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:37 pm yeah. buddhism originally was for missionary activity. buddha created a religious school of thoought modelled on jainism with the objective of reforming jain and hindu thought. there were periods in indian history were buddhism became the main philosophy in india. missionary activity was done by buddhists through most of asia and the middle east. so, what i said is not contradictory.

the divisions are not just my impression. it is a fact that even in national scale buddhism is very unecessarily divided.
I do not think Buddha's desire was to "create a religious school" nor do I think it was modelled on Jainism. I also do not think Buddha felt his message was one of "Reform."

I think you're coming out this from a socio-historical point of view which is somewhat revisionist, or at least propounded by academic thinking, rather than from the POV of Buddhists themselves.

Buddha's desire was to transcend Samsara, and he recognized that each individual had the means within themselves to do so. He laid out a path of means, with a wide variety of techniques and applications, for various sentient beings to reach this goal.

I suppose it is true that there have been "Buddhist Missionaries," though I cannot think of them as evangelical in nature. I really think BuddhaDharna has never been monolithic, and never will be. In fact, if anything, it stirkes me as "anti-monolithic" at it's core. I believe that sentient beings encounter BuddhaDharma due to their own karma, though it could be said that any missionary activity would also be the result of one's karma, and encountering such a missionary may also be the result of one's karma. But Buddhism, to me, is based ultimately on experiential rather than notional or doctrinal evidence. "Conversions" to Buddhism don't occur due to exchanging one set of doctrinal beliefs for another. Granted, there may be those who call themselves Buddhists based on doctrinal beliefs, or cultural inheritence, etc., but in the end, the Dharma will only be spread successfully, and will only take root in various cultures, due to the realization of it's followers. Frankly speaking, it would be better for us to practice and turn inward, than to face outward and foist our "system of doctrine" on others, no matter how peacefully we may do so.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 11675
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

conebeckham wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:57 pm

I suppose it is true that there have been "Buddhist Missionaries," though I cannot think of them as evangelical in nature. I really think BuddhaDharna has never been monolithic, and never will be. In fact, if anything, it stirkes me as "anti-monolithic" at it's core. I believe that sentient beings encounter BuddhaDharma due to their own karma, though it could be said that any missionary activity would also be the result of one's karma, and encountering such a missionary may also be the result of one's karma. But Buddhism, to me, is based ultimately on experiential rather than notional or doctrinal evidence. "Conversions" to Buddhism don't occur due to exchanging one set of doctrinal beliefs for another. Granted, there may be those who call themselves Buddhists based on doctrinal beliefs, or cultural inheritence, etc., but in the end, the Dharma will only be spread successfully, and will only take root in various cultures, due to the realization of it's followers. Frankly speaking, it would be better for us to practice and turn inward, than to face outward and foist our "system of doctrine" on others, no matter how peacefully we may do so.
Excellent post Cone. :twothumbsup:
AkashicBrother wrote:buddhism and hinduism are way more divided than christianity and islam
Have you not heard of the Reformation? Beyond that, why are monolithic religious structures even desirable? As Cone says, the point of BuddhaDharma is a path to enlightenment for those beings whose eyes are "less covered in dust", it is more important to focus on one's own practice and the practice of those close to use with whom we have karmic connection than to force our ideas on others. The former actual creates great merit and leads to greater happiness for anyone connected to our mandala. The latter just leads to angry people who, at best will "convert" due to this or that argument at a given moment, ready than having a genuine readiness in their being.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
tkp67
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by tkp67 »

Reading this thread inspired some thought.

Does diversity in dharma imply that Buddhism really is not not united in principle cause of elimination of suffering?

Is the thought* in and of itself a self perpetuated delusion?

*(that division or lack of unity even exists outside of our minds)
User avatar
AkashicBrother
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

Originally buddhism was very symilar to a reformed version of jainism and the buddha himself was first a jain. I respect the view of you guys, but i think these views are too idealist. in the real world when we see the history of religions. the reason of why they expand or reduce is grounded in concrete, material things. leaving politics aside, its on things like organisation ,structure, even open philospophical debates, not on purely internal metaphysics. we all agree here that dharmic religions are better than abrahmic religions, so i dont think im wrong when i say that its a shame to see hinduism and buddhism being supplanted by abrahmic religions and atheism, like its happening really fast.
User avatar
AkashicBrother
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

another thing that is relevant. believe it or not , most people in the world DO HAVE a very positive view of buddhism and hinduism. but because the religions dont spread properly (with exceptions) , people who could be buddhist or hindus in the right circunstances never become, because they dont even have a sangha, which is one of the basic principles of buddhist practice. in comparison, even countries that are very distant to the west ,like nepal, have churches.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 11675
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:28 am Originally buddhism was very symilar to a reformed version of jainism and the buddha himself was first a jain. I respect the view of you guys, but i think these views are too idealist.
They are Buddhist views. You are treating Buddhism from the lens of secular historians who are merely measuring the poltical and social power of religions. Obviously, from a Buddhist point of view that is quite a limited way of seeing, and we should not be basing our conduct on these sorts of analyses.
in the real world when we see the history of religions. the reason of why they expand or reduce is grounded in concrete, material things. leaving politics aside, its on things like organisation ,structure, even open philospophical debates, not on purely internal metaphysics. we all agree here that dharmic religions are better than abrahmic religions,
I actually don't waste my time trying to argue that my religion is "better" than another. I have reasons for holding the views I do, but I don't consider engagement in these sorts of samsaric pursuits particularly good for Dharma...though it may be good for institutionalized "Buddhism" in places. The latter is actually a vehicle for the former. There are countless Buddhist scriptures that discourage acting from impulses of dominating and beating others - including other religions.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 11675
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:35 am another thing that is relevant. believe it or not , most people in the world DO HAVE a very positive view of buddhism and hinduism. but because the religions dont spread properly (with exceptions) , people who could be buddhist or hindus in the right circunstances never become, because they dont even have a sangha, which is one of the basic principles of buddhist practice. in comparison, even countries that are very distant to the west ,like nepal, have churches.
Buddhism is one of the largest world religions, I'm still confused on how you think it doesn't "spread properly". No one is arguing fro not creating sangha or organizations, many of us are members of them.
even countries that are very distant to the west ,like nepal, have churches.
Yes and there is exceptionally ugly history behind them in many cases, so i'm fine with not being associated with that kind of thing.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
User avatar
cyril
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:47 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by cyril »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:35 am another thing that is relevant. believe it or not , most people in the world DO HAVE a very positive view of buddhism and hinduism. but because the religions dont spread properly (with exceptions) , people who could be buddhist or hindus in the right circunstances never become, because they dont even have a sangha, which is one of the basic principles of buddhist practice. in comparison, even countries that are very distant to the west ,like nepal, have churches.
Having access to a local sangha or teacher is great but let's keep in mind that's only a set of secondary conditions which allows your karmic potential to manifest. The primary cause for taking refuge and following the path is still your karma. Without this primary cause, sangha, teachers, etc cannot really do much. I've met people born and raised in traditional Buddhist societies who were totally ignorant about Dharma and who did not show the slightest interest towards this topic. I also have a friend ordained as a priest in the Jodo Shinshu tradition who has been doing missionary work in a country where Dharma is largely unknown for about 15 years now. The man is good at explaining the Amida Dharma and quite passionate about it; in fact, preaching the way of nembutsu is what he lives for. And yet, after all these years, he only managed to make about 10 followers or so. As I said earlier, nobody comes to Buddhadharma without already having a karmic connection of some sort; as Buddhists, we should understand these things.
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -
User avatar
AkashicBrother
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by AkashicBrother »

If it is a buddhist view ir not, it depends of the buddhist tradition. originally contesting other religions and philosophies in debates and philosphical points was done by early buddhism and by the buddha, and there are plenty of texts concerning that. but in certain buddhist thoughts (in zen for example) it is indeed more like a philopsophy than a religion. debating beliefs of others is not about "beating" or dominating others. its a quest for which spiritual path is closer to the truth, it can be done politely in a honest way. and its was done by lots of buddhist texts and teachers. what is frowned upon is gatruitous violence.

buddhism is the main religion that is losing the most adepts each year. it will decrease in most places of asia. it will grow in a few places like china, australia and cambodia. in 2050 for example buddhism according to pew data will decrease 10% in japan . in most places of asia there will be reduction, albeit in smaller scale.
TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by TrimePema »

AkashicBrother wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:15 am If it is a buddhist view ir not, it depends of the buddhist tradition. originally contesting other religions and philosophies in debates and philosphical points was done by early buddhism and by the buddha, and there are plenty of texts concerning that. but in certain buddhist thoughts (in zen for example) it is indeed more like a philopsophy than a religion. debating beliefs of others is not about "beating" or dominating others. its a quest for which spiritual path is closer to the truth, it can be done politely in a honest way. and its was done by lots of buddhist texts and teachers. what is frowned upon is gatruitous violence.

buddhism is the main religion that is losing the most adepts each year. it will decrease in most places of asia. it will grow in a few places like china, australia and cambodia. in 2050 for example buddhism according to pew data will decrease 10% in japan . in most places of asia there will be reduction, albeit in smaller scale.
You are trying to change karma without having the proper skills to help people. How do you know you will not harm them?
Your idea of "missionary" is really best understood in terms of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and their skills - which maybe you are or are not familiar with. Firstly, you should know, it is enough for people to make a good connection with the Dharma in this life. Secondly, you should know, this is, within Buddhism, an age of degeneration. Thirdly, you should know, what matters is not how many people are "buddhist" but how many are progressing on the paths and stages. As for which spiritual path is closer to the truth, the world doesnt work in such a way where anyone can simply debate another philosophy because people overcomplicate the subject matter. For example, you are speaking about statistics which are irrelevant to the goal of Buddhism and whether or not Buddhism persists in this specific world is also simply a matter of the merit of the beings who inhabit it and not a matter of the existential binary value of "Buddhism or No Buddhism."

You are failing to account for the Buddhist cosmology which entails many other worlds in similar and different states of degeneration or the time of Buddha and so on.

Your evaluation of what is happening on the surface level of what you call reality is not based on a scale undergirded by the understanding that each sentient being is none other than a future Buddha - it is not based in the Buddhist view, and yet you are considering the state of Buddhism.

I would argue against your idea that abrahamic religions are truly supplanting dharmic ones. What is happening is places in which devotees were merely culturally faithful are experiencing a change in culture. It does not actually affect the number of authentic practitioners in the world. What does affect the number of authentic practitioners are the secondary causes and conditions created by uninformed people becoming so-called Buddhist so-called Mindfulness so-called Meditation so-called Instructors and so on. IMO anyway.
Also, FWIW I admire that you have put so much thought into this. But I also encourage you to look a little bit at the views that we're displaying in an experiential, contemplative way and not write them off as idealistic because they have to do with Buddhist metaphysics.
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2353
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Tenma wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:56 pm Yes it is sad people are leaving dharma, but in korea the main reason for people leaving is that the priests there are corrupted as all hell. So kinda their own doing. In Himalayan region missionaries offer people money and medications and promise them god knows what. So kinda shady. As Garchen Rinpoche said leave worrying about the future of the lineages to the heads of the lineages and worry about your own practice.
Mind if I may know on the corrupt Korean priests? I've never heard about this.

And Himalayan missionaries? Why is there a need for Buddhist missionaries there (unless you're talking about Christian ones)? May I see an example of their promises, please?
[/quote]

"In more recent years, the Jogye Order has been beset with scandals involving gambling[5][6] and sexual misconduct.[7][8]" - wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogye_Ord ... d_Scandals )

And I mean christian missionaries ofcourse. Can't find the article, but one high lama from the region talked about it.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
tkp67
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by tkp67 »

One of the greatest modern mass adopted delusions is the phenomenon of judging teachings of any kind through the interpretation of an adherent.

Basically (as I see it) people judge the validity of a tool of enlightenment based on the interpretation of another mind without any due diligence in regards to verity of said interpretation

Every teaching every religion is grossly misrepresented and understood (by the mainstream) and it is leading to science becoming a dogma and has effectively started a war on consciousness by denying all previous attempts to understand it, regardless of efficiency or inefficiency.

Many religions are so culturally entrenched that they are provincial and need to be reconciled to dharma and this war against consciousness denies dharma and the previous causes for it one of which is religion itself.

My apologies if this seems insistent instead of posing it as question but please do not interpret this is obstinate this is simply my personal observation and I do understand it may be only personally relevant.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Best countries to expand buddhism?

Post by Grigoris »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:21 am One of the greatest modern mass adopted delusions is the phenomenon of judging teachings of any kind through the interpretation of an adherent.

Basically (as I see it) people judge the validity of a tool of enlightenment based on the interpretation of another mind without any due diligence in regards to verity of said interpretation

Every teaching every religion is grossly misrepresented and understood (by the mainstream) and it is leading to science becoming a dogma and has effectively started a war on consciousness by denying all previous attempts to understand it, regardless of efficiency or inefficiency.

Many religions are so culturally entrenched that they are provincial and need to be reconciled to dharma and this war against consciousness denies dharma and the previous causes for it one of which is religion itself.

My apologies if this seems insistent instead of posing it as question but please do not interpret this is obstinate this is simply my personal observation and I do understand it may be only personally relevant.
Welcome to Kali Yuga.

kali yuga.jpg
kali yuga.jpg (251.16 KiB) Viewed 987 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Locked

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”