Like a dream or a kind of dream?

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Does a waking state look like a dream or is it a kind of dream?

looks like a dream, but not a dream
3
14%
a kind of dream
8
36%
other
11
50%
 
Total votes: 22

Viach
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Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Viach »

In Buddhism, does a waking state look like a dream, but it is essentially not a dream or is it essentially a dream (albeit a different kind of it)? In other words, when we are awake, are we, precisely, awake or are we just seeing another kind of sleep?
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Grigoris
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Grigoris »

...when we are asleep, are we, precisely, asleep or are we just seeing another kind of awake?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Viach
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Viach »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:22 am ...when we are asleep, are we, precisely, asleep or are we just seeing another kind of awake?
In our karmic dream, we dream that we either wake up or sleep. Therefore "a kind of dream".
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Jerafreyr
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Jerafreyr »

The awakened state is pure lucidity. It is snapping out of the dream. No more spinning. :toilet: :rolling: :stirthepot: :juggling:
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seeker242
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by seeker242 »

Other: Looks like a dream, but neither a dream nor not a dream.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Viach
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Viach »

In the very first sutra, the very first thing that the Buddha said was to be called the Buddha, i.e. woke up. Here it is especially valuable that it is a self-name. Therefore, it is logical to understand all other states as types of sleep.
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SunWuKong
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by SunWuKong »

Viach wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:53 pm In the very first sutra, the very first thing that the Buddha said was to be called the Buddha, i.e. woke up. Here it is especially valuable that it is a self-name. Therefore, it is logical to understand all other states as types of sleep.
One may equally "wake up" from delusion and ignorance; it's an acceptable turn of phrase.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam
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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Maybe it makes more sense to replace "dream" with "illusion".
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Viach wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:08 am In Buddhism, does a waking state look like a dream, but it is essentially not a dream or is it essentially a dream (albeit a different kind of it)? In other words, when we are awake, are we, precisely, awake or are we just seeing another kind of sleep?
This isn't a conceptual thing, it's a doing, or a seeing....in order to arrive at any kind of useful answer you have to examine the nature of phenomena as they are experienced, in your experience, not as they are talked about, conceptualized, etc. There are lots of ways that things could theoretically be like or not like a dream according to this or that famous person, but the actual experience of life being like a dream is, I think, what all the talk is pointing us at.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:16 am
Viach wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:08 am In Buddhism, does a waking state look like a dream, but it is essentially not a dream or is it essentially a dream (albeit a different kind of it)? In other words, when we are awake, are we, precisely, awake or are we just seeing another kind of sleep?
This isn't a conceptual thing, it's a doing, or a seeing....in order to arrive at any kind of useful answer you have to examine the nature of phenomena as they are experienced, in your experience, not as they are talked about, conceptualized, etc. There are lots of ways that things could theoretically be like or not like a dream according to this or that famous person, but the actual experience of life being like a dream is, I think, what all the talk is pointing us at.
I agree with the emphasis on the non-conceptual. But I think it's also designed as a practice for those who haven't had any direct experience. The point there being not to take your sense consciousnesses too seriously and to start to weaken the grip of conceptual grasping.
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Grigoris
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Grigoris »

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Viach
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Viach »

SunWuKong wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:20 am
Viach wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:53 pm In the very first sutra, the very first thing that the Buddha said was to be called the Buddha, i.e. woke up. Here it is especially valuable that it is a self-name. Therefore, it is logical to understand all other states as types of sleep.
One may equally "wake up" from delusion and ignorance; it's an acceptable turn of phrase.
Then it turns out Buddha used the word buddha as a metaphor.
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jake
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by jake »

Viach wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:58 pm
SunWuKong wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:20 am
Viach wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:53 pm In the very first sutra, the very first thing that the Buddha said was to be called the Buddha, i.e. woke up. Here it is especially valuable that it is a self-name. Therefore, it is logical to understand all other states as types of sleep.
One may equally "wake up" from delusion and ignorance; it's an acceptable turn of phrase.
Then it turns out Buddha used the word buddha as a metaphor.
Or as skill-in-means.....
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Grigoris
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Grigoris »

Viach wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:54 am
Grigoris wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:22 am ...when we are asleep, are we, precisely, asleep or are we just seeing another kind of awake?
In our karmic dream, we dream that we either wake up or sleep. Therefore "a kind of dream".
That one went completely over your head... :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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SunWuKong
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by SunWuKong »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:14 pm
Viach wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:54 am
Grigoris wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:22 am ...when we are asleep, are we, precisely, asleep or are we just seeing another kind of awake?
In our karmic dream, we dream that we either wake up or sleep. Therefore "a kind of dream".
That one went completely over your head... :tongue:
Still it's not totally irrelevant, as I was just reading that often in the Hinayana tradition monks simply sleep all day. Go figure.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam
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Grigoris
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Grigoris »

SunWuKong wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:22 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:14 pm
Viach wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:54 am
In our karmic dream, we dream that we either wake up or sleep. Therefore "a kind of dream".
That one went completely over your head... :tongue:
Still it's not totally irrelevant, as I was just reading that often in the Hinayana tradition monks simply sleep all day. Go figure.
Well, they wake at 4:30am for practice and then at 6:30am they leave for alms rounds and are not allowed to eat after midday, so it kind of makes sense that they would be sleepy. Actually, from what I know, they don't actually do all that much meditation practice. If they are not studying or reciting...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Viach wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:08 am In Buddhism, does a waking state look like a dream, but it is essentially not a dream or is it essentially a dream (albeit a different kind of it)? In other words, when we are awake, are we, precisely, awake or are we just seeing another kind of sleep?
it is called "like a dream" because our experiences are related to phenomena, and the nature of phenomena is... :cheers:
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SunWuKong
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by SunWuKong »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:39 pm
SunWuKong wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:22 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:14 pm That one went completely over your head... :tongue:
Still it's not totally irrelevant, as I was just reading that often in the Hinayana tradition monks simply sleep all day. Go figure.
Well, they wake at 4:30am for practice and then at 6:30am they leave for alms rounds and are not allowed to eat after midday, so it kind of makes sense that they would be sleepy. Actually, from what I know, they don't actually do all that much meditation practice. If they are not studying or reciting...
..while others get up before the noon meal and go back to bed after the same meal...
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam
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Grigoris
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by Grigoris »

SunWuKong wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:28 pm..while others get up before the noon meal and go back to bed after the same meal...
It's a living...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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tobes
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Re: Like a dream or a kind of dream?

Post by tobes »

There is karmic efficacy in an unawakened waking state, in a way that there isn't for an unawakened dream state. So although the metaphor is useful, I don't think it should have the status of an ontological assertion.
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