Is dependant origination eternal?

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A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm “The awareness [of their nonexistence] is like empty space. That which is aware of the empty space is like the appearance of the illusory flower. However, one cannot say that the nature of this awareness is nonexistent. Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is in accordance with pure enlightenment.

Many times, I use space (lol...i "space out") to see how things are.
I imagine looking at the Earth...and the farther out in space i get, the smaller the Earth becomes, until it no longer appears...because space is so vast...the farther you get from an object...it will just disappear....in the vastness of space the earth becomes like an atom....then even the atom disappears....yet when you move closer and closer to the object, it reappears....

So this "Empty Space", in which the non-existent sentient being is AWARE of, and the NATURE of that AWARENESS, (does exist )
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm one cannot say that the nature of this awareness is nonexistent.
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is in accordance with pure enlightenment.
But when you eliminate the CONCEPTS of EXISTENCE/NON-EXISTENCE....
Then enlightenment is properly conceived.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:09 pm If you wouldnt have read this thread, how would thoughts about inherent existence arise?
I have thought about this many many times..before the thread....last night i was thinking (again) about WHAT IS LIFE ?
WHAT IS THE SUBSTANCE THAT MAKES SOMETHING ALIVE ? Christians would call it GOD. But what IS it that is LIVING ? And what IS it that leave the body, and that body is considered DEAD ?

WHAT IS THE LIFE FORCE ?
Atoms are even vibrating inside of rocks.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Kunga, you're asking the impossible.
But I'm sure someone will jump on the thief's horse to chase the thief. :jumping:
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Malcolm
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 pm
That depends any grasping that it is so or not so on a conceptual level is falling into error, hence if understood no questions arise and theres nothing in need of explaining. Hence understanding the arising of the inquiry is sufficient and leaves no room for grasping "correct dharma"

Can you parse this out more?
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:52 pm
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:09 pm If you wouldnt have read this thread, how would thoughts about inherent existence arise?
I have thought about this many many times..before the thread....last night i was thinking (again) about WHAT IS LIFE ?
It is a faculty sentient beings are born with. It's duration depends on their merit.
WHAT IS THE SUBSTANCE THAT MAKES SOMETHING ALIVE ? Christians would call it GOD. But what IS it that is LIVING ? And what IS it that leave the body, and that body is considered DEAD ?

WHAT IS THE LIFE FORCE ?
Atoms are even vibrating inside of rocks.
The substance that gives us life is called "life," prāṇavāyu, and it is the oxygen in the air you breath in and out. No air, no life. Very simple. Fish use gills to take oxygen from water, but the principle is the same.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:20 pm
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 pm
That depends any grasping that it is so or not so on a conceptual level is falling into error, hence if understood no questions arise and theres nothing in need of explaining. Hence understanding the arising of the inquiry is sufficient and leaves no room for grasping "correct dharma"

Can you parse this out more?
Sometimes giving everything away is poison.
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A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:25 pm The substance that gives us life is called "life," prāṇavāyu, and it is the oxygen in the air you breath in and out. No air, no life. Very simple.
Yes. But do atoms in rocks need oxygen ? Why do rocks have atoms ? What are atoms ?
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:20 pm
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 pm
That depends any grasping that it is so or not so on a conceptual level is falling into error, hence if understood no questions arise and theres nothing in need of explaining. Hence understanding the arising of the inquiry is sufficient and leaves no room for grasping "correct dharma"

Can you parse this out more?
Sometimes giving everything away is poison.
I meant write it in grammatically-correct English.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Mantrik »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:32 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:12 pm So eternity is empty and arises dependently.
Eternity is a concept. an interpretation upon perception.
Just flipping the title around flippantly, since what all this boils down to is just intellectualising, or in some cases writing pseudo-intellectual bollocks.
Last edited by Mantrik on Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:35 pm
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:20 pm


Can you parse this out more?
Sometimes giving everything away is poison.
I meant write it in grammatically-correct English.
Sometimes giving everything away is poison means expounding the dharma can lead to causing deep attachments. Hence in that one sentence is the explanation of the previous post..."it depends"
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:37 pm
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:32 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:12 pm So eternity is empty and arises dependently.
Eternity is a concept. an interpretation upon perception.
Just flipping the title around flippantly, since what all this boils down to is just intellectualising.
Exactly. Instead of explaining things which will lead to further intellectualisation and grasping one needs to understand on what the inquiry depends. Asking the right questions which are conducive to awakening are questions which cannot be answered, hence they are retorical. Or as malcolm showed answers who do not lead to grasping, so in that way the question is no longer applicable.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Mantrik »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:47 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:37 pm
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:32 pm

Eternity is a concept. an interpretation upon perception.
Just flipping the title around flippantly, since what all this boils down to is just intellectualising.
Exactly. Instead of explaining things which will lead to further intellectualisation and grasping one needs to understand on what the inquiry depends. Asking the right questions which are conducive to awakening are questions which cannot be answered, hence they are retorical. Or as malcolm showed answers who do not lead to grasping, so in that way the question is no longer applicable.
I edited my comment as you posted. I added:
'........or in some cases writing pseudo-intellectual bollocks.'

It is a sad consequence of forums that intellectual developmentalism as a preference seems to predominate over advice to explore the revelatory, which is experiential and requiring little conceptual or rhetorical exploration.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:47 pm Asking the right questions which are conducive to awakening are questions which cannot be answered,
Silence is the answer ....
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:02 pm It is a sad consequence of forums that intellectual developmentalism as a preference seems to predominate over advice to explore the revelatory, which is experiential and requiring little conceptual or rhetorical exploration.
Things are fine the way they are, but there's always room for improvement. :D
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:03 pm
Silence is the answer ....
A poem. :smile:

1. Experience Chan! It's not mysterious. 
As I see it, it boils down to cause and effect. 
Outside the mind there is no Dharma 
So how can anybody speak of a heaven beyond?

2. Experience Chan! It's not a field of learning. 
Learning adds things that can be researched and discussed. 
The feel of impressions can't be communicated. 
Enlightenment is the only medium of transmission.

3. Experience Chan! It's not a lot of questions. 
Too many questions is the Chan disease. 
The best way is just to observe the noise of the world. 
The answer to your questions? 
Ask your own heart.


4. Experience Chan! It's not the teachings of disciples. 
Such speakers are guests from outside the gate. 
The Chan which you are hankering to speak about 
Only talks about turtles turning into fish.

5. Experience Chan! It can't be described. 
When you describe it you miss the point. 
When you discover that your proofs are without substance 
You'll realize that words are nothing but dust.

6. Experience Chan! It's experiencing your own nature! 
Going with the flow everywhere and always. 
When you don't fake it and waste time trying to rub and polish it, 
Your Original Self will always shine through brighter than bright.

7. Experience Chan! It's like harvesting treasures. 
But donate them to others. 
You won't need them. 
Suddenly everything will appear before you, 
Altogether complete and altogether done.

8. Experience Chan! Become a follower who when accepted 
Learns how to give up his life and his death. 
Grasping this carefully he comes to see clearly. 
And then he laughs till he topples the Cold Mountain ascetics.

9. Experience Chan! It'll require great skepticism; 
But great skepticism blocks those detours on the road. 
Jump off the lofty peaks of mystery. 
Turn your heaven and earth inside out.

10. Experience Chan! Ignore that superstitious nonsense 
That makes some claim that they've attained Chan. 
Foolish beliefs are those of the not-yet-awakened. 
And they're the ones who most need the experience of Chan!

11. Experience Chan! There's neither distance nor intimacy. 
Observation is like a family treasure. 
Whether with eyes, ears, body, nose, or tongue - 
It's hard to say which is the most amazing to use.

12. Experience Chan! There's no class distinction. 
The one who bows and the one who is bowed to are a Buddha unit. 
The yoke and its lash are tied to each other. 
Isn't this our first principle... the one we should most observe?

Master Xu Yun
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Carlita »

mechashivaz wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:48 pm Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
As long as there is an action, there is a reaction. This is independent one set of people but all things past, present, and future. Everything and every being follows is a product of karma.

So, once we die, life goes on. We are reborn due do to our actions that came up because of previous causes/actions (karma). The cycle keeps going until a person no longer has causes to create affects. Once causes are understood and address, that person is no longer held by karma. That person dies (no rebirth).

I would say its eternal given humans dont need to exist dor causes and affects to happen. Unless everything freezes or pop out of thin air, everything goes in a cycle. I was listening to a Dharma Talk by Thubton Chodron who talks about a Precious Human Life. Our human life is the best condition to help get closer to dying (no rebirth). Eons sounds like an eternity but since The Buddha died, it just means we be here for a long time. Enlightenment is freedom from the cycle.

Kind of like finally finding out youre on a roller coast going under and over tunnels. Then, when you realize you just going in a cycle you start preparing yourself for the turns. When yoh finally prepared, you are not surprised nor suffering from the rises and falls. When that happens, the ride is boring. The cart still goes on just without you. You perished that attachment so not only does youe body die your mind isnt attached to the ride.

Its interesting, our bodies understand change but our minds are constantly in denial. Interesting.
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by mechashivaz »

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful insights.
Carlita wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:38 pm
mechashivaz wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:48 pm Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
As long as there is an action, there is a reaction. This is independent one set of people but all things past, present, and future. Everything and every being follows is a product of karma.

So, once we die, life goes on. We are reborn due do to our actions that came up because of previous causes/actions (karma). The cycle keeps going until a person no longer has causes to create affects. Once causes are understood and address, that person is no longer held by karma. That person dies (no rebirth).

I would say its eternal given humans dont need to exist dor causes and affects to happen. Unless everything freezes or pop out of thin air, everything goes in a cycle. I was listening to a Dharma Talk by Thubton Chodron who talks about a Precious Human Life. Our human life is the best condition to help get closer to dying (no rebirth). Eons sounds like an eternity but since The Buddha died, it just means we be here for a long time. Enlightenment is freedom from the cycle.

Kind of like finally finding out youre on a roller coast going under and over tunnels. Then, when you realize you just going in a cycle you start preparing yourself for the turns. When yoh finally prepared, you are not surprised nor suffering from the rises and falls. When that happens, the ride is boring. The cart still goes on just without you. You perished that attachment so not only does youe body die your mind isnt attached to the ride.

Its interesting, our bodies understand change but our minds are constantly in denial. Interesting.
I understand Buddhahood to be the end of karmic rebirths, not necessarily the end of all rebirths. To, as you say, die (with no rebirth, not even out of compassion) sounds too much like nihilism, hence a previous inquiry I made about, "where is Sakyamuni," I don't think that the Buddha simple died and ditched us all without being able to help sentient beings any longer, just as other buddhas exist in other manifestations out of their compassion for sentient beings. I can't see how parinirvana simply equalling "lights out" isn't nihilism.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Sherab »

mechashivaz wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:48 pm Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
Here is my take:

Buddhism DOES NOT reject eternalism per se. It only rejects eternalism insofar as it pertains to a thing/mind/field that is permanent and unchanging. So things like Brahman, an eternal soul and a Creator God are rejected.

Not only that, Buddhism also rejects nihilism insofar as it pertains to a thing/mind/field that is not a continuum, i.e., it arises and then ceases completely.

Buddhist ontology is placed squarely within these two constraints and is short-handed as the avoiding of the two extremes of existence and non-existence. Dependent arising is therefore to be understood as solely operating within this constraint of avoiding the extreme of existence and non-existence.

Dependent arising however does not only refer to a causal chain, where cause is seen as preceeding effects. Dependent arising also can refer to emergence, where a new layer of phenomena arises with properties not found from the layer it came from. Dependent arising can also refer to spontaneous co-emergence.

The last in my view is probably the most fundamental form of dependent arising as it has a sense of randomness and yet not. From this basic dependent arising, we have the more usually understood form of dependent arising as emergence and dependent arising as causal chains. It is on this that the self of a person, the self of phenomena even karma are seen as ultimately illusory or non-existence.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Carlita »

mechashivaz wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:16 pm Thanks to everyone for all the helpful insights.
Carlita wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:38 pm
mechashivaz wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:48 pm Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
As long as there is an action, there is a reaction. This is independent one set of people but all things past, present, and future. Everything and every being follows is a product of karma.

So, once we die, life goes on. We are reborn due do to our actions that came up because of previous causes/actions (karma). The cycle keeps going until a person no longer has causes to create affects. Once causes are understood and address, that person is no longer held by karma. That person dies (no rebirth).

I would say its eternal given humans dont need to exist dor causes and affects to happen. Unless everything freezes or pop out of thin air, everything goes in a cycle. I was listening to a Dharma Talk by Thubton Chodron who talks about a Precious Human Life. Our human life is the best condition to help get closer to dying (no rebirth). Eons sounds like an eternity but since The Buddha died, it just means we be here for a long time. Enlightenment is freedom from the cycle.

Kind of like finally finding out youre on a roller coast going under and over tunnels. Then, when you realize you just going in a cycle you start preparing yourself for the turns. When yoh finally prepared, you are not surprised nor suffering from the rises and falls. When that happens, the ride is boring. The cart still goes on just without you. You perished that attachment so not only does youe body die your mind isnt attached to the ride.

Its interesting, our bodies understand change but our minds are constantly in denial. Interesting.
I understand Buddhahood to be the end of karmic rebirths, not necessarily the end of all rebirths. To, as you say, die (with no rebirth, not even out of compassion) sounds too much like nihilism, hence a previous inquiry I made about, "where is Sakyamuni," I don't think that the Buddha simple died and ditched us all without being able to help sentient beings any longer, just as other buddhas exist in other manifestations out of their compassion for sentient beings. I can't see how parinirvana simply equalling "lights out" isn't nihilism.
I dont know too much about the sutras other than The Lotus since I read it. In general, when The Buddha reached paranivanna, he no longer was reborn into this word. After eons of suffering/attachnment, he finally was able to realize the full truth of the noble truths, follow the eightfold to a T, and no longer need to be reborn. So, since he is no longer reborn, he died. He was trying to prepare his disciples for his final death. His disciples kept with his dharma and by doing so, became buddhas themselves.

Far as I know there is only one type of rebirth. When you create an action, you either benefit from the action or not. A persons actions determine his rebirths. Karmic rebirth, I guess or just rebirth.

As for him helping sentinent beings, Im not culturally familar with The Buddba acting in a roll of "giving" knowledgw. He sais more we, ourselves, need to understand the teachings. The Lotus Sutra has that perspective you speak of.

When there is no rebirth, there is no attachment. No attachment, nothing left to say exists. The mind is no longer bound bh suffering and attachment. The body is ready pass the stage of decay. My understanding is The Dharma is there to help us how to die as The Buddha. We cant die if we are attached to things that dont exist in itself because of constant change.

I guess its nihilism. Though, for me, it changes my goals and perspective when living as I will die. To me, its more following The Dharma for purpose of getting to the final paranibanna. If its to live forever, we wouldnt need to go into "homelessness" because we'd think we have another chance.

Thats how I understand it. I havent read the Diamond sutras, heart, etc or any other sutras other than The Lotus. But these are my thoughts.

When you say The Buddha gives compassion, what do you mean? Is he a spirit?
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by mechashivaz »

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful insights.
Carlita wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:38 pm
When you say The Buddha gives compassion, what do you mean? Is he a spirit?
I didn't say or mean that The Buddha gives compassion but that the nature of a buddha is compassion, albeit compassion born from transcendent wisdom, so how it manifests is beyond the scope of most beings. Regarding Sakyamuni as being a spirit, no. Dharmakaya. As far as concepts are concerned, annihilation is unacceptable and Dharmakaya perfectly describes the parinirvana of buddhas who don't manifest in another form.

If you haven't read the various Prajnaparamita Sutras they're certainly worth your time!
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