Is dependant origination eternal?

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mechashivaz
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Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by mechashivaz »

Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
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Aryjna
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Aryjna »

mechashivaz wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:48 pm Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
How can there be a whole as such ,if it is made of many parts coming and going according to various causes and conditions? Just because there may be a concept of an eternal system in the mind does not mean that there is an actual system.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Wayfarer »

I think it always works that way, so is like an eternal law. But an eternal law is not an eternally-existing substance, it is not something that always exists without changing. So to ask whether 'dependent origination' is eternal, is to make it an object, which it isn't. It's just the way things work.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

mechashivaz wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:48 pm Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
On what does the idea of eternity depend?

regarding the flow of karma etc. which is non-arising therefore no concept of permanent or impermanent, existence or non-existence applies. Wandering about the permanence of things is trying to grasp the moon's reflection in the water.
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Malcolm
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

mechashivaz wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:48 pm Buddhism rejects eternalism regarding all compound things, but what about the flow of karma, cause and effect ever moving myriad things? Even after kalpas upon kalpas it would seem that it's posited that the process of being and non-being will continue indefinitely, thus creating an eternal system of flux.
Since the past is not established, since it has perished, and the future is not established, since it has yet to come to be, the present cannot be established either. Therefore, dependent origination is not an eternal process because no processes can be established, other than as conventions.

Further, dependent origination is about the afflicted processes that drive samsara, affliction, action, and suffering. When affliction is removed, action has no cause; and when action has no cause, the result, suffering cannot be produced. From this perspective too, dependent origination cannot be seen as eternal, since when one attains realization, one becomes free from that process entirely.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by dude »

:rules: :popcorn: :ugeek: Too much head tfipping. Of course it s etetnal. You were never born. You willl never die. And you don,t really exist at all
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

dude wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:45 pm :rules: :popcorn: :ugeek: Too much head tfipping. Of course it s etetnal. You were never born. You willl never die. And you don,t really exist at all
Why the qualifier "really?" Is there some sense in which we do exist, are born, and die?
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

dude wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:45 pm :rules: :popcorn: :ugeek: Too much head tfipping. Of course it s etetnal. You were never born. You willl never die. And you don,t really exist at all
Ideas of existence and non-existence are momentary and arise due to conditions, since those concepts are interdependent they are devoid of any substance. Eternity is a phantasy the conditioned mind adds to perception. In full attention there is no room for a conceptual center.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Simon E. »

dude wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:45 pm :rules: :popcorn: :ugeek: Too much head tfipping. Of course it s etetnal. You were never born. You willl never die. And you don,t really exist at all
If I, we, you, dont exist at all..which is clearly nonsense btw, how can anything be eternal?
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

What Inherently exists then ?
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:44 pm What Inherently exists then ?
Nothing at all.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:45 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:44 pm What Inherently exists then ?
Nothing at all.
Nothing is something....lol...what is nothing ?
Don't tell me nothing is everything...lol

oh that's right...everything IS nothing...so nothing IS everything...
Last edited by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha on Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:44 pm What Inherently exists then ?
On what does this question depend?

You "should" come to see why such questions are false and are unapplicable and not conducive to awakening.
“What is ignorance? Virtuous man, since beginningless time, all sentient beings have had all sorts of delusions, like a disoriented person who has lost his sense of direction. They mistake the four great elements [6] as the attributes of their bodies, and the conditioned impressions [7] of the six sense objects as the attributes of their minds. They are like a man with an illness of the eyes who sees an [illusory] flower in the sky, or a second moon.

“Virtuous man, there is in reality no flower in the sky, yet the sick man mistakenly clings to it. Because of his mistaken clinging, he is not only deluded about the intrinsic nature of the empty space, but also confused about the arising of the flower. Because of this false existence [to which he clings], he remains in the turning wheel of birth and death. Hence this is called ignorance.

“Virtuous man, this ignorance has no real substance. It is lik a person in a dream. Though the person exists in the dream, when [the dreamer] awakens, there is nothing that can be grasped. Like an [illusory] flower in the sky that vanishes into empty space, one cannot say that there is a fixed place from which it vanishes. Why? Because there is no place from which it arises! Amidst the unarisen, all sentient beings deludedly perceive birth and extinction. Hence this is called the turning wheel of birth and death.

“Virtuous man, one who practices Complete Enlightenment of the causal ground of the Tathagata realizes that [birth and extinction] are like an illusory flower in the sky. Thus there is no continuance of birth and death and no body or mind that is subject to birth and death. This nonexistence of [birth and death and body and mind] is so not as a consequence of contrived effort. It is so by its intrinsic nature.

“The awareness [of their nonexistence] is like empty space. That which is aware of the empty space is like the appearance of the illusory flower. However, one cannot say that the nature of this awareness is nonexistent. Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is in accordance with pure enlightenment.

“Why is it so? Because the nature of empty space is ever unmoving. Likewise, there is neither arising nor perishing within the Tathagatagarbha. [8] It is free from conceptual knowledge and views. Like the nature of dharmadhatu, which is ultimate, wholly complete, and pervades all ten directions, such is the Dharma practice [of the Tathagata] of the causal ground.

“Because of this [intrinsic completeness], bodhisattvas within the Mahayana may give rise to pure bodhi-mind. If sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age practice accordingly, they will not fall into erroneous views.”

At that time, the World Honored One, wishing to clarify his meaning, proclaimed these gathas:

Manjusri, you should know
that all Tathagatas,
from their original-arising causal ground,
use wisdom to enlighten
and penetrate ignorance.
Realizing that ignorance is like
a flower in the sky,
they are thus liberated from the continuance
[of birth and death].
Like a person [seen] in a dream who
cannot be found when [the dreamer] awakens,
awareness is like empty space.
It is impartial and equal, and ever unmoving.
When enlightenment pervades all ten directions,
the Buddha Path is accomplished.
There is no place where illusions vanish,
and there is no attainment
in accomplishing the Buddha Path,
for the intrinsic nature is already wholly complete.
By this, bodhisattvas
can give rise to the bodhi-mind.
Sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age
through this practice will avoid erroneous views.
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Malcolm
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:45 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:44 pm What Inherently exists then ?
Nothing at all.
Nothing is something....lol...what is nothing ?
Don't tell me nothing is everything...lol

oh that's right...everything IS nothing...so nothing IS everything...
There is no entity, either compounded or uncompounded, which inherently exists. Hence, nothing exists inherently. Everything that exists, arises from conditions.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:44 pm
What Inherently exists then ?
On what does this question depend?
If things do not inherently exist, what is it that inherently exists ?
What inherently exists, does not depend on anything for it's existence.
All phenomena is caused by dependent origination.
What is it that does not depend on anything for it to exist.

(I haven't read the quote yet you posted...i'll read it now...)
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:02 pm If things do not inherently exist, what is it that inherently exists ?
What inherently exists, does not depend on anything for it's existence.
All phenomena is caused by dependent origination.
What is it that does not depend on anything for it to exist.

(I haven't read the quote yet you posted...i'll read it now...)
If you wouldnt have read this thread, how would thoughts about inherent existence arise?

Since it arised due to conditions youll see that any "yes" or "no" would be without inherent existence. ;) and hence no conditioned answer would be usefull, if you see on what the question depends it would have never been asked! ;)
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Malcolm »

fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:44 pm What Inherently exists then ?
On what does this question depend?

You "should" come to see why such questions are false and are unapplicable and not conducive to awakening.
Such questions are very good, and are easily answered, requiring no speculation at all, and are in fact very conducive to awakening. As Candrakīrti notes in the Madhyamakāvatāra:

Phenomena's lack of inherent existence,
is conventionally termed "emptiness" by the wise.
That emptiness is also asserted
to be empty of an empty entity.
That emptiness of so-called emptiness
is asserted to be the emptiness of emptiness,
taught in order to repel the grasping
of thinking emptiness is an entity.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by Mantrik »

So eternity is empty and arises dependently.
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:10 pm
fuki wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:44 pm What Inherently exists then ?
On what does this question depend?

You "should" come to see why such questions are false and are unapplicable and not conducive to awakening.
Such questions are very good, and are easily answered, requiring no speculation at all, and are in fact very conducive to awakening. As Candrakīrti notes in the Madhyamakāvatāra:

Phenomena's lack of inherent existence,
is conventionally termed "emptiness" by the wise.
That emptiness is also asserted
to be empty of an empty entity.
That emptiness of so-called emptiness
is asserted to be the emptiness of emptiness,
taught in order to repel the grasping
of thinking emptiness is an entity.
That depends any grasping that it is so or not so on a conceptual level is falling into error, hence if understood no questions arise and theres nothing in need of explaining. Hence understanding the arising of the inquiry is sufficient and leaves no room for grasping "correct dharma"
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Re: Is dependant origination eternal?

Post by fuki »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:12 pm So eternity is empty and arises dependently.
Eternity is a concept. an interpretation upon perception.
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