Vipasyana Meditation

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Dharmasherab
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Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Dharmasherab » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:58 am

I want to know about the Vipasyana meditation methods used in Mahayana as well as in Vajrayana (but not Theravada).

Does anyone know of books, websites, groups names of teachers which teach Vipasyana meditation in the Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Just to reiterate I am not looking for the Vipassana done in Theravada (and this includes the type taught by S.N.Goenka too and the lineage of Ledi Sayadaw) in this forum.

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Riju » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:32 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:58 am
I want to know about the Vipasyana meditation methods used in Mahayana as well as in Vajrayana (but not Theravada).

Does anyone know of books, websites, groups names of teachers which teach Vipasyana meditation in the Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Just to reiterate I am not looking for the Vipassana done in Theravada (and this includes the type taught by S.N.Goenka too and the lineage of Ledi Sayadaw) in this forum.
Vipassana in Mahayana is done by watching with awareness the body pains/movements/sensations without any reaction. No maitery is pursued .
While vipassana in Goenka system has to be ended with Maitery. Just to warn you .....Mahayana vipassana without Maitery is very dangerous and if it gets out of control it will cause a huge harm to the individual.

Maitery in meditation is done by passing on the merits to surroundings gained in meditation'.
Vipassana in mahayana meditation is done to gain Jhannas (all pervading wisdom).

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Astus » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:30 pm

1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:27 pm

Thank yo for both these replies. I will check out the links. Seems very useful.

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Malcolm
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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:31 pm

Riju wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:32 pm
Vipassana in Mahayana is done by watching with awareness the body pains/movements/sensations without any reaction.

No, vipaśyāna in Mahāyāna is the realization of the emptiness of all phenomena while resting in śamatha.

In Vajrayāna, vipaśyāna corresponds to the completion stage.
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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:46 pm

In case the OP is curious, Ven Zhìyǐ entitled his Mó hē zhǐ guān (called "Mo-ho chih-kuan" above), with a Sanskrit word rendered in Chinese characters. That word was Mahāśamathavipaśyanā, which breaks down into: "mahā(great)+śamatha(calming[meditation])+vipaśyanā(insight[meditation])".
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Astus » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:24 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:27 pm
Seems very useful.
Here are some good classical works containing vipasyana instructions that are available online:

Sūtra of Mahā-Prajñā-Pāramitā Pronounced by Mañjuśrī Bodhisattva
The Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation
The Awakening Of Faith In Mahayana
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:08 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:24 pm

Here are some good classical works containing vipasyana instructions that are available online:

Sūtra of Mahā-Prajñā-Pāramitā Pronounced by Mañjuśrī Bodhisattva
If I may ask, could you contextualize this from the above (Mañjuśryaḥ?) Mahāprajñāpāramitāsūtra? From shortly after the opening of fascicle 2:


The Buddha asked, “You have entered the inconceivable samādhi?”
Mañjuśrī replied, “No, World-Honored One, I am the inconceivable. Not seeing a mind that can conceive, how can I be said to enter the inconceivable samādhi? When I first activated the bodhi mind, I resolved to enter this samādhi. Now I think that I have entered this samādhi without any mental appearances. To learn archery, a student has to practice for a long time to acquire the skill. Because of his longtime practice, he now shoots without using his mind, and all his arrows hit the target. I have trained in the same way. When I started learning the inconceivable samādhi, I had to focus my mind on one object. After practicing for a long time, I have come to accomplishment. I now am constantly in this samādhi without thinking.”
Śāriputra asked Mañjuśrī, “Is there a silent samādhi that is more wonderful?”
Mañjuśrī replied, “If there were actually an inconceivable samādhi, you could then ask for a silent samādhi. According to my understanding, even the inconceivable samādhi cannot be captured, so how can you ask for a silent samādhi?”
Śāriputra asked, “The inconceivable samādhi cannot be attained?”
Mañjuśrī replied, “The conceivable samādhi has an appearance that can be captured while the inconceivable samādhi has no appearance to be captured. All sentient beings have attained the inconceivable samādhi. Why? Because all mental appearances are not the [true] mind. Therefore, the [mental] appearances of all sentient beings and the appearance of the inconceivable samādhi are the same, not different.”


It is the interpretation of the latter part that I am wondering on: "Because all mental appearances are not the [true] mind." I am wondering about "not" and "[true]" here.

Thank you for your time.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Astus » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:33 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:08 pm

Śāriputra asked, “The inconceivable samādhi cannot be attained?”
Mañjuśrī replied, “The conceivable samādhi has an appearance that can be captured while the inconceivable samādhi has no appearance to be captured. All sentient beings have attained the inconceivable samādhi. Why? Because all mental appearances are not the [true] mind. Therefore, the [mental] appearances of all sentient beings and the appearance of the inconceivable samādhi are the same, not different.”


It is the interpretation of the latter part that I am wondering on: "Because all mental appearances are not the [true] mind." I am wondering about "not" and "[true]" here.
舍利弗言:「不可思議定不可得耶?」
文殊師利言:「思議定者,是可得相;不可思議定者,不可得相。一切眾生實成就不思議定。何以故?一切心相即非心故,是名不思議定。是故一切眾生相及不思議三昧相,等無分別。」
(文殊師利般若經)

As the square brackets suggest, the word "true" was added by the translator, but it does not really belong there. The inconceivable samadhi cannot be attained (不可得), because it has no characteristics (相 - this is translated by Rulu as "appearance") that could be grasped (得 - attained, Rulu: captured). Sentient beings have the inconceivable samadhi, because they are empty, as was discussed in the first fascicle (T232p726b23-c19). Similarly, thoughts (心相 - Rulu: mental appearances) are mindless/inconceivable (非心 - acitta, acintya), in other words: empty.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:06 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:58 am
I want to know about the Vipasyana meditation methods used in Mahayana as well as in Vajrayana (but not Theravada).

Does anyone know of books, websites, groups names of teachers which teach Vipasyana meditation in the Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Just to reiterate I am not looking for the Vipassana done in Theravada (and this includes the type taught by S.N.Goenka too and the lineage of Ledi Sayadaw) in this forum.

I think the Heart Sutra is Vipassana for Mahayana and Vajrayana.

Thomas

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Dharmasherab » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:55 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:06 pm
I think the Heart Sutra is Vipassana for Mahayana and Vajrayana.
Really?? I mean really?? :-s

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:22 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:55 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:06 pm
I think the Heart Sutra is Vipassana for Mahayana and Vajrayana.
Really?? I mean really?? :-s
Yes, really. The idea or the term is shown in the text.

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Anonymous X » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 am

Astus wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:24 pm
Dharmasherab wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:27 pm
Seems very useful.
Here are some good classical works containing vipasyana instructions that are available online:

Sūtra of Mahā-Prajñā-Pāramitā Pronounced by Mañjuśrī Bodhisattva
The Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation
The Awakening Of Faith In Mahayana
And, why does no one here refer to the Mahasatipattana Sutta for instruction in Vipassana practice? The Buddha, in his own words, lays it out. Is it not the proper place to start to learn about it?

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Astus » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:21 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 am
And, why does no one here refer to the Mahasatipattana Sutta for instruction in Vipassana practice?
Because it's not a Mahayana scripture.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Anonymous X » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:35 pm

Astus wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:21 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 am
And, why does no one here refer to the Mahasatipattana Sutta for instruction in Vipassana practice?
Because it's not a Mahayana scripture.
lol. Is early Buddhism not the words of the Buddha? Is Mahayana a refutation of what Buddha actually taught? Didn't it produce Noble Ones like Ananda, Sariputta, and Mahakassyapa?

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Simon E. » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:31 pm
Riju wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:32 pm
Vipassana in Mahayana is done by watching with awareness the body pains/movements/sensations without any reaction.

No, vipaśyāna in Mahāyāna is the realization of the emptiness of all phenomena while resting in śamatha.

In Vajrayāna, vipaśyāna corresponds to the completion stage.
Bump.
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Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:03 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 am
And, why does no one here refer to the Mahasatipattana Sutta for instruction in Vipassana practice? The Buddha, in his own words, lays it out. Is it not the proper place to start to learn about it?

Wrong kind of vipaśyanā.

The kind of vipaśyanā proper to Māhayāna is referred to in the Akṣayamati-nirdeśa:

"The consciousness that perceives the entry into reality is called "vipaśyanā." So-called vipaśyanā is perceiving phenomena correctly, perceiving phenomena as they are, perceiving phenomena truly, and perceiving phenomena as not otherwise, perceiving phenomena as empty, without characteristics, without aspiration, perceiving phenomena to be unformed, likewise, nonarisen, unproduced, insubstantial, just as they are, pure, and as isolated. It is perceiving phenomena as unmoving, inactive, without self, wholly without grasping, inseparable, one taste, as the nature of space, and nirvana by nature," etc.
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Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:03 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 am
And, why does no one here refer to the Mahasatipattana Sutta for instruction in Vipassana practice? The Buddha, in his own words, lays it out. Is it not the proper place to start to learn about it?

Wrong kind of vipaśyanā.

The kind of vipaśyanā proper to Māhayāna is referred to in the Akṣayamati-nirdeśa:

"The consciousness that perceives the entry into reality is called "vipaśyanā." So-called vipaśyanā is perceiving phenomena correctly, perceiving phenomena as they are, perceiving phenomena truly, and perceiving phenomena as not otherwise, perceiving phenomena as empty, without characteristics, without aspiration, perceiving phenomena to be unformed, likewise, nonarisen, unproduced, insubstantial, just as they are, pure, and as isolated. It is perceiving phenomena as unmoving, inactive, without self, wholly without grasping, inseparable, one taste, as the nature of space, and nirvana by nature," etc.
There are many suttas that say the same thing. This doesn't explain what you call right or wrong vipassana. Satipatthana, according to the Buddha in the sutta of the same name, is the direct path. MN 10: "The Blessed One said: This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana."

Again, is Mahayana refuting what the Buddha said originally?

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:49 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:32 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:03 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:02 am
And, why does no one here refer to the Mahasatipattana Sutta for instruction in Vipassana practice? The Buddha, in his own words, lays it out. Is it not the proper place to start to learn about it?

Wrong kind of vipaśyanā.

The kind of vipaśyanā proper to Māhayāna is referred to in the Akṣayamati-nirdeśa:

"The consciousness that perceives the entry into reality is called "vipaśyanā." So-called vipaśyanā is perceiving phenomena correctly, perceiving phenomena as they are, perceiving phenomena truly, and perceiving phenomena as not otherwise, perceiving phenomena as empty, without characteristics, without aspiration, perceiving phenomena to be unformed, likewise, nonarisen, unproduced, insubstantial, just as they are, pure, and as isolated. It is perceiving phenomena as unmoving, inactive, without self, wholly without grasping, inseparable, one taste, as the nature of space, and nirvana by nature," etc.
There are many suttas that say the same thing. This doesn't explain what you call right or wrong vipassana. Satipatthana, according to the Buddha in the sutta of the same name, is the direct path. MN 10: "The Blessed One said: This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana."

Again, is Mahayana refuting what the Buddha said originally?
No, it does not refuse. But seeing all dharmas as empty (cf.the heart sutra) is the key point in Mahayana.

Thomas

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Re: Vipasyana Meditation

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:19 am

This isn't a Thervada forum, if people want to get indignant about taking Mahayana teaching as definitive, please do it at Dhammawheel. The OP stated he is not looking for Pali/Theravadin based instructions. Don't want to give another warning about it.
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