Enlightenment success rate

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Admin_PC
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Admin_PC »

The passage I quoted from HuiNeng contains some portions that sound fairly gradual:
若起邪迷,妄念顛倒,外善知識雖有教授,救不可得。若起正真般若觀照,一剎那間,妄念俱滅;若識自性,一悟即至佛地。


善 知識!智慧觀照,內外明徹,識自本心。若識本心,即本解脫。若得解脫,即是般若三昧,即是無念。何名無念?若見一切法,心不染著,是為無念。用即遍一切 處, 亦不著一切處;但淨本心,使六識出六門,於六塵中無染無雜

If you give in to erroneous, deluded, and distorted thoughts, even a great master’s teaching would be futile. If you give rise to genuine prajna contemplation, in an instant all deluded thoughts will cease; if you realize your inherent nature, you awaken and you arrive at the stage of a buddha.

Noble friends, by observing and contemplating with wisdom, which illuminates within and without, we realize our original mind. Realization of the original mind is true liberation. To attain liberation is to attain prajna samadhi. Prajna samadhi is “no thought.” What is “no thought”? To understand and perceive all dharmas, with a mind free from attachment and defilement, that is “no thought.” When in use, this mind pervades everywhere, yet it does not cling to anything. We only have to purify our (original) mind so that the six consciousnesses exit the six gates (senses) without being contaminated or defiled by the six dusts (sense objects).
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Astus
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus »

Admin_PC wrote:The passage I quoted from HuiNeng contains some portions that sound fairly gradual
What section do you see as gradual? For instance:

"If you give rise to genuine prajna contemplation, in an instant all deluded thoughts will cease; if you realize your inherent nature, you awaken and you arrive at the stage of a buddha"

That is direct access to buddhahood, from delusion to perfect enlightenment.

"Realization of the original mind is true liberation."

Again, one just needs to realise it. No purification, no stages, only immediate liberating insight.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Admin_PC »

Astus wrote:
Admin_PC wrote:The passage I quoted from HuiNeng contains some portions that sound fairly gradual
What section do you see as gradual?
This is almost verbatim from the "gradual" links I posted above:
What is “no thought”? To understand and perceive all dharmas, with a mind free from attachment and defilement, that is “no thought.” When in use, this mind pervades everywhere, yet it does not cling to anything. We only have to purify our (original) mind so that the six consciousnesses exit the six gates (senses) without being contaminated or defiled by the six dusts (sense objects).
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus »

Admin_PC wrote:This is almost verbatim from the "gradual" links I posted above:
What is “no thought”? To understand and perceive all dharmas, with a mind free from attachment and defilement, that is “no thought.” When in use, this mind pervades everywhere, yet it does not cling to anything. We only have to purify our (original) mind so that the six consciousnesses exit the six gates (senses) without being contaminated or defiled by the six dusts (sense objects).
No thought in Huineng's teaching is arrived at directly and is equal to buddhahood. The gradual path - not the sudden teaching of Huineng - is where one gets to no thought stage by stage.

"When you are awakened to this teaching, there is “no thought”— you are free from recollection and attachments, and do not give rise to delusions. From your own true suchness, illuminate and observe with wisdom, neither grasp nor reject anything—this is to see your true nature and attain Buddhahood."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Admin_PC »

I'm just talking about how 本心 is used in that passage. He says in that passage that it is something that needs to be realized and requires purification. Gradual or not, this is entirely in keeping with the earlier quotes. I have no problem with the idea that HuiNeng's method is described differently elsewhere. I have no problem with the idea of how 本心 may have a different nuance elsewhere.

One of the Samyukta Agama passages with 本心 is T0099_.02.0278. I took a stab at translating it, but it came out ugly. It's explicitly talking about awakening in that context though. Taisho 0126 is another early sutra with similar usage.

I totally understand there may be different nuances of the term & paths to get there, I just think when multiple passages are talking about a mind free of defilements and obscurations, they're essentially pointing to the same thing.
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Minobu »

Admin_PC wrote:[We tend to think of samsara as the physical world, when in reality it refers to the rounds of rebirths & suffering brought about by ignorance.



Maybe I should've said "it's not about materiality springing forth from a creator mind" - "just" implies that it's a given, when it's not necessarily that way.
You have no idea how much you helped me here..It never comes out as we thik ...but you sparked a whole thing in me based on

perception

it's all about perception..
so i turned to my memory of something i never really understood and just put it on the back burner for the past 40 years...
Something in Nichiren Lotus Buddhism..
It's not clear whether this is one of those fake writings penned in Nichiren's name...but the substance is spot on..

with a little help from me friend "Q"
the gosho is quoting the Vimalakirti Sutra.
"Whether you chant the Buddha’s name, recite the sutra, or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits and roots of goodness in your life. With this conviction you should strive in faith. The Vimalakīrti Sutra states that, when one seeks the Buddhas’ emancipation in the minds of ordinary beings, one finds that ordinary beings are the entities of enlightenment, and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. It also states that, if the minds of living beings are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds."
again "Q" gives us
This is the original passage in the Vimalakirti Sutra

At that time Śāriputra was influenced by the Buddha’s numinous charisma to have this thought: “If the bodhisattva’s buddha land is pure according to the purity of the bodhisattva’s mind, then when our World-honored One was a bodhisattva his mind must have been pure. Nevertheless, this buddha land is so impure!”

The Buddha knew what he was thinking and asked him, “What do you think? Although the blind do not see them, can the sun and moon be anything but pure?”

[Śāriputra] answered, “No, World-honored One! This is the fault of the blind, not that of the sun and moon.”

[The Buddha said], “Śāriputra, it is through the transgressions of sentient beings that they do not see the purity of the Tathāgata’s (i.e., my) buddha land. This is not the Tathāgata’s fault! Śāri putra, this land of mine is pure, but you do not see it.”

At that time Conch Crest Brahmā King said to Śāriputra, “Do not think thus, saying that this buddha land is not pure. Why? I have witnessed the purity of Śākyamuni’s buddha land. It is like the heavenly palace of Īśvara.”

Śāriputra said, “As I observe this land, it is hills and hollows, brambles and gravel, and rocks and mountains—all filled with defilements.”

Conch Crest Brahmā King said, “Sir, your mind has (i.e., perceives) high and low because you are not relying on buddha wisdom. Hence you perceive this land as impure. Śāriputra, the bodhisattva is universally same [in attitude] regarding all sentient beings. The purity of his profound mind relies on buddha wisdom and therefore is able to perceive the purity of this buddha land.”

At this the Buddha pointed to the earth with his toe, and instantly the trimegachiliocosm was as if ornamented with a hundred thousand jewels. It was like the Jewel Ornamentation land, with all its immeasurable merits, of Jewel Ornament Buddha.

The entire great assembly exclaimed at this unprecedented event, and they all saw themselves sitting on many-jeweled lotus flowers.

The Buddha told Śāriputra, “You should now observe the purity of this buddha land.”

Śāriputra said, “So it is, World-honored One. Originally I did not see it; originally I did not hear it. Now the purity of the Buddha’s country is entirely apparent.”

The Buddha said to Śāriputra, “My buddha country is always pure, like this. It is only so as to save inferior persons here that I manifest it as a defiled and impure land. It is like the many-jeweled eating utensils used in common by the gods, the food in which is of different colors depending on their merits. Just so, Śāriputra, if a person’s mind is pure he sees the merits and ornaments of this land.”
I think what you are trying to show me, Admin_PC...correct me if i am wrong ...is perception...it is all about how we perceive Samsara and Nirvana..and our own mind and the primordial Mind...it's all the same thing...this is new to me...never even came close...
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Astus
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus »

Admin_PC wrote:I'm just talking about how 本心 is used in that passage. He says in that passage that it is something that needs to be realized and requires purification.
The mind is originally pure, it does not require purification. In fact, the very attempt to purify it is wrong. So Huineng says:

"If one is to concentrate on purity, then [realize that because] our natures are fundamentally pure, it is through false thoughts that suchness is covered up. Just be without false thoughts and the nature is pure of itself. If you activate your mind to become attached to purity, you will only generate the falseness of purity. The false is without location; it is the concentration that is false. Purity is without shape and characteristics; you only create the characteristics of purity and say this is ‘effort’ [in meditation]. To have such a view is to obscure one’s own fundamental nature, and only to be fettered by purity."
(Platform Sutra, ch 5, BDK ed, p 45; T48n2008p353b10-14)
I have no problem with the idea that HuiNeng's method is described differently elsewhere.
In my previous posts it was from the very same chapter, and the above one is from the same text, so it's not really elsewhere.
One of the Samyukta Agama passages with 本心 is T0099_.02.0278. I took a stab at translating it, but it came out ugly. It's explicitly talking about awakening in that context though.
In that sutra 本心 stands for "original intention", that is, the reason why someone goes forth from home life to homelessness.
I totally understand there may be different nuances of the term & paths to get there, I just think when multiple passages are talking about a mind free of defilements and obscurations, they're essentially pointing to the same thing.
Except that there is no such thing as an "original mind" in the Nikayas/Agamas, nor in the Abhidharma. Even Madhyamaka and Yogacara refute such a concept. That is, the concept that the mind is inherently pure. On the other hand, it is of course the goal of all Buddhist tradition to attain complete purity, i.e. freedom from afflictions and obscurations.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Admin_PC »

Not sure if T126 is one of those "not really an Agama" sutras in the Agama section, but the usage of 本心 there is a bit trickier to dismiss
T0126_.02.0833b09:     常樂甚深法 具足忍辱力    
T0126_.02.0833b10:     善達於本心 占相悉能知

"Always content with the profound Dharma, they are endowed with strength and forbearance.
Skillfully penetrating the fundamental mind, they realize all knowables."


Regardless, I think I understand now. Thanks for being patient.
While, a mind purified of defilements is a common theme - the idea of original purity is not.
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

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Admin_PC wrote:While, a mind purified of defilements is a common theme - the idea of original purity is not.
So it is. And then what an original mind stands for in those teachings that actually speak about it is another matter.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Malcolm »

Admin_PC wrote:.
While, a mind purified of defilements is a common theme - the idea of original purity is not.
The idea of original purity comes directly from the perfection of wisdom sūtras.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

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Astus wrote:In fact, grasping at any view is an error, as it is still maintaining the idea that there is something to hold on to.
There is indeed something to hold on to i.e. the raft, the teaching. If we were to let go of that Dharmawheel would have no content.

And, 'original purity' is not something fabricated.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus »

Wayfarer wrote:There is indeed something to hold on to i.e. the raft, the teaching.
And this is the teaching:

"Therefore one should not cherish dharmas or non-dharmas. For this reason, the Tathagata often teaches: Bhiksus, know that my Dharma is like a raft. If even the correct teachings (Dharma) should be abandoned, how much more so the incorrect teachings (non-Dharma)?"
(Diamond Sutra, ch 6)
And, 'original purity' is not something fabricated.
"Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist."
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

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Astus wrote:And this is the teaching:
Indeed, and that was the very verse I alluded to. But there is a raft, a teaching, and there nerds to be.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

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Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist...
Of course it doesn't exist, because 'everything that exists' has a beginning and an end in time. The unconditioned doesn't come into and go out of existence, therefore could not 'exist'.

But if you say the unconditioned is unreal, then indeed you fall into nihilism, i.e. 'nothing whatever is real'.

' It is not existent--even the Victorious Ones do not see it.
It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of all samsara and nirvana.
This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity.
May the ultimate nature of phenomena, limitless mind beyond extremes, be realised.'

Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra

I find Astus' interpretation consistently falls into the side of saying 'non-existent'. Reality, the real, the dharmadhatu, is not existent or non-existent, but that which all notions of existence and non-existence presupposes.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Kaccāni »

So maybe (to sort some terms out, enough humour, and bed time :-)

Body exists. In Body brain exists. Brain produces thoughts/impressions. Thoughts exist. Thoughts turning onto the mind itself produces impression of an ego. Impression-of-an-ego exists. Ego does not exist, but arises "conditioned" as a secondary driven by impression-of-an-ego. Big illusion. Mucho wrong view. Maya whereever you look.

The fact that humans generally tend to fall for this illusion - pretty much unconditioned and eternal.

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Kc
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

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Admin_PC wrote:The passage I quoted from HuiNeng contains some portions that sound fairly gradual:
若起邪迷,妄念顛倒,外善知識雖有教授,救不可得。若起正真般若觀照,一剎那間,妄念俱滅;若識自性,一悟即至佛地。


善 知識!智慧觀照,內外明徹,識自本心。若識本心,即本解脫。若得解脫,即是般若三昧,即是無念。何名無念?若見一切法,心不染著,是為無念。用即遍一切 處, 亦不著一切處;但淨本心,使六識出六門,於六塵中無染無雜

If you give in to erroneous, deluded, and distorted thoughts, even a great master’s teaching would be futile. If you give rise to genuine prajna contemplation, in an instant all deluded thoughts will cease; if you realize your inherent nature, you awaken and you arrive at the stage of a buddha.

Noble friends, by observing and contemplating with wisdom, which illuminates within and without, we realize our original mind. Realization of the original mind is true liberation. To attain liberation is to attain prajna samadhi. Prajna samadhi is “no thought.” What is “no thought”? To understand and perceive all dharmas, with a mind free from attachment and defilement, that is “no thought.” When in use, this mind pervades everywhere, yet it does not cling to anything. We only have to purify our (original) mind so that the six consciousnesses exit the six gates (senses) without being contaminated or defiled by the six dusts (sense objects).
The whole idea of sudden vs gradual is a fabrication and doesn't really exist as such. They are ways that people conceptualize a 'view', which is also a fabrication, and like the raft, it is simply let go of. Trying to get an intellectual handle on all this misses the point. The only thing it seems good for is an argument, a debate. Are there really winners in debates? I doubt it. The loser will just go on and fabricate something else. No thought means no fabrication. Why argue about sudden or gradual? That is not 'no thought'. Trying to use thought to clarify all of this is futile. It is not the way as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

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Kaccāni wrote:So maybe (to sort some terms out, enough humour, and bed time :-)

Body exists. In Body brain exists. Brain produces thoughts/impressions. Thoughts exist. Thoughts turning onto the mind itself produces impression of an ego. Impression-of-an-ego exists. Ego does not exist, but arises "conditioned" as a secondary driven by impression-of-an-ego. Big illusion. Mucho wrong view. Maya whereever you look.

The fact that humans generally tend to fall for this illusion - pretty much unconditioned and eternal.

Best
Kc
The underlying problem with everything you've written is that there is an assumption that you exist. You can divide existence into parts instead of a self or ego, but it is all thought driven and fabricated. None of these things exist as you imagine them to exist.
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Jesse »

Anonymous X wrote:
Admin_PC wrote:The passage I quoted from HuiNeng contains some portions that sound fairly gradual:
若起邪迷,妄念顛倒,外善知識雖有教授,救不可得。若起正真般若觀照,一剎那間,妄念俱滅;若識自性,一悟即至佛地。


善 知識!智慧觀照,內外明徹,識自本心。若識本心,即本解脫。若得解脫,即是般若三昧,即是無念。何名無念?若見一切法,心不染著,是為無念。用即遍一切 處, 亦不著一切處;但淨本心,使六識出六門,於六塵中無染無雜

If you give in to erroneous, deluded, and distorted thoughts, even a great master’s teaching would be futile. If you give rise to genuine prajna contemplation, in an instant all deluded thoughts will cease; if you realize your inherent nature, you awaken and you arrive at the stage of a buddha.

Noble friends, by observing and contemplating with wisdom, which illuminates within and without, we realize our original mind. Realization of the original mind is true liberation. To attain liberation is to attain prajna samadhi. Prajna samadhi is “no thought.” What is “no thought”? To understand and perceive all dharmas, with a mind free from attachment and defilement, that is “no thought.” When in use, this mind pervades everywhere, yet it does not cling to anything. We only have to purify our (original) mind so that the six consciousnesses exit the six gates (senses) without being contaminated or defiled by the six dusts (sense objects).
The whole idea of sudden vs gradual is a fabrication and doesn't really exist as such. They are ways that people conceptualize a 'view', which is also a fabrication, and like the raft, it is simply let go of. Trying to get an intellectual handle on all this misses the point. The only thing it seems good for is an argument, a debate. Are there really winners in debates? I doubt it. The loser will just go on and fabricate something else. No thought means no fabrication. Why argue about sudden or gradual? That is not 'no thought'. Trying to use thought to clarify all of this is futile. It is not the way as far as I'm concerned.

Then why bother posting on forums at all? All this conceptualization is pointless, and not the way after all, right?

Before enlightenment, we must absolutely make use of the conceptual knowledge that dharma utilizes. Without conceptualization, Buddhism wouldn't even be a thing, nobody would ever be liberated. Too much emptiness, not enough common sense here.

Many people try to ditch the raft far too early. I would go so far as to say 100% of the members on this forum still have much need of these rafts.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus »

Wayfarer wrote:Indeed, and that was the very verse I alluded to. But there is a raft, a teaching, and there nerds to be.
I meant that the teaching was to abandon all attachments.
Of course it doesn't exist, because 'everything that exists' has a beginning and an end in time. The unconditioned doesn't come into and go out of existence, therefore could not 'exist'.
What the sutra says is that both "conditioned" and "unconditioned" are words, teachings meant for instructing people, that's why they don't actually exist.
I find Astus' interpretation consistently falls into the side of saying 'non-existent'.
"You must discern the words of the complete teaching and the incomplete teaching; you must discern prohibitive words and nonprohibitive words; you must discern living and dead words; you must discern medicine and disease words; you must discern words of negative and positive metaphor; you must discern generalizing and particularizing words.
To say that it is possible to attain Buddhahood by cultivation, that there is practice and there is realization, that this mind is enlightened, that the mind itself is identical to Buddha - this is Buddha's teaching; these are words of the incomplete teaching. These are nonprohibitive words, generalizing words, words of a pound or ounce burden. These are words concerned with weeding out impure things; these are words of positive metaphor. These are dead words. These are words for ordinary people.
To say that one cannot attain Buddhahood by cultivation, that there is no cultivation, no realization, it is not mind, not Buddha - this is also Buddha's teaching; these are words of the complete teaching, prohibitive words, particularizing words, words of a hundred hundredweight burden. These are words beyond the three vehicles' teachings, words of negative metaphor or instruction, words concerned with weeding out pure things; these are words for someone of station in the Way, these are living words."

(Extensive Record of Baizhang, tr Cleary, p 37-38)
Reality, the real, the dharmadhatu, is not existent or non-existent, but that which all notions of existence and non-existence presupposes.
In other words, it seems you are proposing that there is an actual substratum.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X »

Jesse wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Admin_PC wrote:The passage I quoted from HuiNeng contains some portions that sound fairly gradual:
The whole idea of sudden vs gradual is a fabrication and doesn't really exist as such. They are ways that people conceptualize a 'view', which is also a fabrication, and like the raft, it is simply let go of. Trying to get an intellectual handle on all this misses the point. The only thing it seems good for is an argument, a debate. Are there really winners in debates? I doubt it. The loser will just go on and fabricate something else. No thought means no fabrication. Why argue about sudden or gradual? That is not 'no thought'. Trying to use thought to clarify all of this is futile. It is not the way as far as I'm concerned.

Then why bother posting on forums at all? All this conceptualization is pointless, and not the way after all, right?

Before enlightenment, we must absolutely make use of the conceptual knowledge that dharma utilizes. Without conceptualization, Buddhism wouldn't even be a thing, nobody would ever be liberated. Too much emptiness, not enough common sense here.

Many people try to ditch the raft far too early. I would go so far as to say 100% of the members on this forum still have much need of these rafts.
When I see something that goes against what I understand, I mention it. This is what I call common sense. There is no raft. It is just an expression of attachment, not of freedom. Do you see that your own thinking creates all your problems? That is the issue, not getting here or there via a practice. Do you see that the idea of you is behind all this? The idea of you and thinking (conceptualization) go hand in hand. That is why I say that thinking is not going to clarify all of this. You need a more basic 'insight' or 'awareness' into this process.
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