What is faith?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Punya
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What is faith?

Post by Punya »

Inspired by another thread, it would interesting to explore, in a respectful way, what faith means in a general buddhist sense and in the different traditions (leaving aside the specific topic of guru yoga). These dictionary definitions seem like a reasonable starting point:

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

It seems like you would need some faith in the begining as a dharma student or is it just that you just need an open mind and an acceptance that you don't have a complete understanding yet? What does spiritual conviction mean?

And, if you accept the advice of teachers like HH the Dalai Lama about the complexity of karma, and you content yourself with a more basic understanding, is that just accepting it on faith. (There are more than enough threads here on karma so please confine the discussion to the faith aspect).
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Astus
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Astus »

Faith is accepting without understanding.

From SN 25.1:

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower"
vs
"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower"

Faith in the Triple Jewel is the first and foremost (SN 55.1) of all objects of faith. Then it is followed by faith in particular teachings, like in SN 25.1 the faith in the impermanence of the six senses.

The treatise Awakening Of Faith In Mahayana is a seminal text in East Asian Buddhism. It writes:

"Now, in developing the aspiration for enlightenment through the perfection of faith, what kind of mind is to be cultivated? Briefly speaking, three kinds can be discussed. The first is the mind characterized by straightforwardness, for it correctly meditates on the principle of Suchness. The second is the mind of profoundness, for there is no limit to its joyful accumulation of all kinds of goodness. The third is the mind filled with great compassion, for it wishes to uproot the sufferings of all sentient beings."

That fits the idea, articulated extensively in Huayan doctrine, that the first moment of faith (it is also the first section of the bodhisattva path in the Huayan - and therefore the East Asian - system) is equal to buddhahood. Sung Bae Park wrote a book on faith in East Asian Buddhism, particularly in Patriarchal Chan: Buddhist Faith and Sudden Enlightenment.

The Bodhisattva who has observed this foremost perfection,
When in the past he served [the Buddhas], is learned and does not doubt:
As soon as he has heard it he will again recognize the Teacher,
And he will swiftly understand the Peaceful Calm of enlightenment.

Though in the past he has honoured millions of Buddhas, and served them
If without faith in the Jina’s perfection of wisdom,
Hearing of it, he will cast it away, one of small intelligence;
After he cast it away, he will go to the Avici Hell, and non one can save him.

Therefore, have faith in this Mother of all the Jinas,
If you wish to experience the utmost Buddha-cognition:
Let him be like a merchant, who has traveled to the treasure island,
And who, having lost his goods would [nevertheless] again return [to it].

(Ratnagunasamcayagatha, ch 7, tr Conze)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
SpinyNorman
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Re: What is faith?

Post by SpinyNorman »

Punya wrote:1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
For me it's not about beliefs but about confidence in the efficacy of particular practices, based on experience.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Some snippets from Reginal Ray's "Indestructible Truth".
(formatting is in the original text) p.45
Dr. Ray wrote:Buddhism is normally thought of a a non theistic tradition, and this raises the question of how suh spirits, gods, and deities are to understood within the Tibetan Buddhist framework. Certainly in Tibetan life beneficent hearth gods, the deities of the god realms, or the dharma protectors or tantric yidam, the nonhuman beings are understood at least on one level as more or less independent, objective entities. They are beings with whom one must be in constant relation, even though they are nonhuman and usually not visible.

At the same time, however, from the point of view of the philosophical and meditative tradition, all such nonhuman beings are ultimately seen as aspects of one's own mind and not separate from it. But what does this actually mean? Frequently, particularly in the West, this standard Buddhist assertion is taken to indicate that such spirits and deities, taken as external beings by ordinary Tibetans, are not really external at all; that in fact they are mistaken projections of psychological states. This, then, becomes a justification for treating them as in fact non extent and provides a rationale for jettisoning them from Western adaptations of the tradition. The problem with this approach is that it reflects a misunderstanding of what is meant by the statement that such entities are aspects of mind and inseparable from mind.

[edit for brevity]

These apparently external existent beings, then, are false bifurcations of the primordial non dual awareness that lies at the basis of all experience. So far, so good; but here is the really critical point; It is not only the beings of the unseen world that have this stays, but all of the phenomena of duality. In the Tibetan view, ourselves, other people, trees, mountains, and cloud, indeed all of the phenomena of the entire so-called internal and external universe are nothing other than false objectifications and solidifications of non dual awareness.

To say this is not, however, to discount their external and "objective" existence within the relative world of apparent duality.
That is the point I've been trying to make.

continuing:
...the Buddhist deities existing in the state of nirvana make their appearance to us ordinary, unenlightened people as external, objectively existing beings. In fact, on this level, they can appear as significantly more real, vivid, and powerful than the ordinary physical universe that surrounds us.
That last line is my understanding of why Deshung R. said (paraphrasing) that we must interpret the deities as being of the same nature as our own mind, because otherwise the experience is so intense that we could interpret it as an attack by a foreign figure.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Malcolm »

Śraddha, which is often translated as faith, is defined in Abhidharma as the mental factor which brings clarity to the mind, and that is it. It is quite a bit different than the faith being extolled here by smcj.

Śraddha is a path dharma [part of the 37 adjuncts to awakening], one of the five powers and the five strengths — in other words, it is only relevant to our confidence in the path, and it has nothing do with believing in ghosts, goblins, etc., including any and all supernatural powers of buddhas, bodhisattvas, siddhas, and dakinis. The existence or nonexistence of these phenomena are irrelevant to our progress on the path, and there is no way in which our belief or disbelief in them affects our path at all. The only "supernatural" things we need to accept are rebirth and karma, since without these, the path taught by the Buddha makes no sense at all.

Punya wrote:Inspired by another thread, it would interesting to explore, in a respectful way, what faith means in a general buddhist sense and in the different traditions (leaving aside the specific topic of guru yoga). These dictionary definitions seem like a reasonable starting point:

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

It seems like you would need some faith in the begining as a dharma student or is it just that you just need an open mind and an acceptance that you don't have a complete understanding yet? What does spiritual conviction mean?

And, if you accept the advice of teachers like HH the Dalai Lama about the complexity of karma, and you content yourself with a more basic understanding, is that just accepting it on faith. (There are more than enough threads here on karma so please confine the discussion to the faith aspect).
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

More snippets.
"Indestructible Truth". p35:
Dr. Ray wrote:It is believed in the cases of both Tara and Avalokiteshvara that they will respond without fail to those who call upon them with faith and devotion.
ibid. p.50
Nevertheless it is not only possible but essential that, as we go along the path, we also discover and deepen our sense of commonality with these nonmaterial, awakened ones. According to Tibetan tradition, in fact, as we mature, the "sky draws closer to the earth," so to speak, and the celestial buddhas and bodhisattvas seem more and more our ever-present protectors, mentors, and guides.
ibid. p.55
The essence of Tibetan Buddhism is communication with the awakened ones--departed masters, bodhisattvas, buddhas, and so on. We call them to mind, open our hearts to them, and receive their blessings. The way we do this is through ritual.
ibid. p.55
The path to this goal is first, to discover our inmost being in the other, the awakened one, and then, through relationship with him or her, gradually to come to awareness of that transcendent nature within ourselves. [edit for brevity] Then we carry out a ritual in which we open ourselves and communicate with this being in various ways, ritually participating in his or her awakening. In this way, we cultivate our own awakened state.
So to be clear; when I say that faith is a fundamental element for Vajrayana practice in no sense do I believe that it prohibits the experience of enlightenment. It is a prerequisite for the practices to bear fruit, for us to experience things for ourselves. But we we discount or reject the issue of faith, so to paraphrase Yoda, "That is why we fail."
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote: So to be clear; when I say that faith is a fundamental element for Vajrayana practice in no sense do I believe that it prohibits the experience of enlightenment. It is a prerequisite for the practices to bear fruit, for us to experience things for ourselves. But we we discount or reject the issue of faith, so to paraphrase Yoda, "That is why we fail."
First of all, Ray is not an authority I would turn to.

Second, your definition of faith has nothing at all to with Vajrayāna practice. Faith here means simply that one has to be confident in the teacher and their teachings, thats all. It does not mean that one has to believe the sun shines from their keister. It is not a heavy emotional charge.
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

More snippets
Dr. Ray, "Indestructible Truth" p. 57 (formatting in the original text)
Even if we Westerners do pay lip service to the traditional Tibetan cosmological ideas, often--as Jeremy Hayward has argued--we remain at heart what he calls "scientific materialists" (1999). In other words, while we may accept the idea of other realms and other beings within and outside of smasara, we do not actually believe in them. Instead, we live as if that world were dead and this reality was the only one that exists.

This attitude is reflected in many Westerners' difficulties with Tibetan ritual. Among Western practitioners, there is frequently a kind of dead feeling in ritual, and many of us fall back on the ice that rote repetition, without any particular engagement of felling, is sufficient. We fall back, in other words, on attitudes to ritual learned in our upbringing, where simply to be physically present was all that was required. In order to survive the many meaningless rituals we may have been subjected to, we also learned to disengage ourselves psychologically and to occupy our time with thinking about other things. What is missing here is the understanding that ritual is a way of communicating with beings who, on the relative plane, really are there and really are important to us. This lively and compelling sense of ritual is, at present, sometimes hard to come by in Western adaptations of Tibetan Buddhism.
Again, as Yoda would say, "And that is why we fail."
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: First of all, Ray is not an authority I would turn to.
Maybe not, but I believe that if I were to read what he has been quoted as saying here to my teachers, that 100% of them would say that he is exactly right. He has simply clarified some issues that can be confusing.

As such, people interested in this subject within the Vajrayana context should make it a point to seek out authentic teachers, preferably ones that have grown up in a culture that accepts these issues without a scientific materialist bias. Don't take what is said here--by anyone--as being more than an impetus to go to an authentic source and find out for yourselves. But once you get to the part of the explanation that deities and such are nothing more than a bifurcation of non-dual awareness, make sure to recapitulate the question to clarify, 'Does that mean that they aren't real on the relative level?" That's where the confusion comes in.

In fact, to make things simple for your lama, consider taking the quotations is question and reading them to him. That way he can make a correction if he sees fit, or just give his ok. Lamas love it when we make things simple and easy for them. (That's a big one, remember it.)
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:What is missing here is the understanding that ritual is a way of communicating with beings who, on the relative plane, really are there and really are important to us. This lively and compelling sense of ritual is, at present, sometimes hard to come by in Western adaptations of Tibetan Buddhism.

No, the fact is that Vajrayāna rites seem dead to people because they have no understanding of Abhidharma at even a minimal level, and thus do not understand the process of mandala creation as being a means of ritually transforming one's continuum and its aggregates, elements and sense gates into a mandala of awakened beings. The process is entirely symbolic and is not magical or supernatural in anyway at all.

Ray's particular point of view is informed by something of an obsession with shamanism. But Tibetan Buddhism is not shamanism and is not principally concerned with communicating with non-human beings in general. But this seems to have become important to you somehow, an article of faith.
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Ray's particular point of view is informed by something of an obsession with shamanism. But Tibetan Buddhism is not shamanism and is not principally concerned with communicating with non-human beings in general. But this seems to have become important to you somehow, an article of faith.
Do you object to the idea that people should go and ask a traditional lama about this subject?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
Ray's particular point of view is informed by something of an obsession with shamanism. But Tibetan Buddhism is not shamanism and is not principally concerned with communicating with non-human beings in general. But this seems to have become important to you somehow, an article of faith.
Do you object to the idea that people should go and ask a traditional lama about this subject?
Which subject? Communicating with non-human beings being the main point of Vajrayāna practice? Perhaps the traditional way of teaching Tibetans is not suitable for Westerners. Have you thought of this?
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Perhaps the traditional way of teaching Tibetans is not suitable for Westerners. Have you thought of this?
In the year 2016 my thought is that the modernized way of teaching Westerners is ineffectual, thus my pointing out the difference between a Western approach and a Tibetan approach--which is very effectual.
Which subject? Communicating with non-human beings being the main point of Vajrayāna practice?
Not "communicating". More like "communing".
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Perhaps the traditional way of teaching Tibetans is not suitable for Westerners. Have you thought of this?
In the year 2016 my thought is that the modernized way of teaching Westerners is ineffective, thus my pointing out the difference between a Western approach and a Tibetan approach.
What is the modernized way of teaching westerners, and who is teaching them this "ineffective" Dharma?


Which subject? Communicating with non-human beings being the main point of Vajrayāna practice?
Not "communicating". More like "communing".
Hahahahahha, communing with nonhuman beings is the main point of Vajrayāna practice? What a joke. The main point of Vajrayāna practice is just the same as Mahāyāna practice, attaining buddhahood by eliminating the two obscurations, end of story.

Commune all you like, but if your afflictions and knowledge obscurations are not being reduced, you are wasting your time.
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Hahahahahha, communing with nonhuman beings is the main point of Vajrayāna practice? What a joke. The main point of Vajrayāna practice is just the same as Mahāyāna practice, attaining buddhahood by eliminating the two obscurations, end of story.

Commune all you like, but if your afflictions and knowledge obscurations are not being reduced, you are wasting your time.
Do you think Manjushri is confused about emptiness? Do you think Chenrezi lacks compassion? If they were to merge with--or even displace your present awareness (as in having "divine pride"), do you think you obscurations would remain untouched?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What is faith?

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Hahahahahha, communing with nonhuman beings is the main point of Vajrayāna practice? What a joke. The main point of Vajrayāna practice is just the same as Mahāyāna practice, attaining buddhahood by eliminating the two obscurations, end of story.

Commune all you like, but if your afflictions and knowledge obscurations are not being reduced, you are wasting your time.
Do you think Manjushri is confused about emptiness? Do you think Chenrezi lacks compassion? If they were to merge with--or even displace your present awareness (as in having "divine pride"), do you think you obscurations would remain untouched?
Neither Mañjuśrī or Avalokiteśvara are concrete external entities at all in the context in which you mention them.

"Divine pride" is a temporary method belonging to the creation stage, and as such it is a conceptual meditation, prophylactic in nature, meant to replace our ordinary sense of self. But this is not the end of the path, in order to attain buddhahood, we still must depend on the direct perception of the nature of our minds that both Mañjuśrī or Avalokiteśvara symbolize. But there is no external Mañjuśrī or Avalokiteśvara that merges with our minds. To believe there are means that one has utterly missed the point of the teachings completely. Even the summoning of the wisdom being into the commitment being is just a reminder that our real state has always been naturally perfected as a mandala, but there is no actual wisdom being that is summoned.
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Matt J
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Matt J »

Some of the Kagyupas seem to be on Malcolm's side. HH 17th Karmapa described the highest form of faith as seeking liberation. He said "we are not merely seeking to be granted protection by a source of refuge, but are seeking to become sources of refuge ourselves.” Comparing it with devotion, he said:
Devotion is distinguished from faith...in that it entails complete engagement and strong commitment, expressed through body and speech, as well as mind. In sum, the practice of devotion involves harnessing our entire body, speech and mind toward the purpose of gaining liberation.
http://www.karmapaamerica2015.org/?p=2423

Ringu Tulku, in his Confusion Appears as Wisdom writes:
Exactly what is devotion? The Tibetan word that I am translating as “devotion” is depa. Depa is sometimes translated as “faith” or “trust,” but it involves more than that. Depa has three special qualities: inspiration, aspiration, and certainty. The words “certainty” and “confidence” seem closer to the right meaning than “trust,” because someone can believe in something and later find out it was untrustworthy. Depa is based on understanding, on having good reasons for devotion…

Devotion is not the same as belief; it arises when something rings true to you. When something touches the core of your heart, you get inspired, and this leads to aspiration and certainty. Devotion is based on understanding the dharma. If you didn’t understand the dharma, how could you be inspired by it? And without being inspired, why should you practice?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote:Even the summoning of the wisdom being into the commitment being is just a reminder that our real state has always been naturally perfected as a mandala, but there is no actual wisdom being that is summoned.
IMO, that is precisely the idea that defeats the practice of Westerners.

If you're right, I've got my head up my ass. If I'm right, everyone that sees practice the way you do is going to be frustrated by lack of results.

I think it is worth encouraging people to go to the effort to ask a traditional Tibetan lama about it. Don't you agree?

NB: It is vital that the question be phrased correctly; Does the ultimate nature of the deity negate its relative nature, and therefore negate the need for faith?
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Even the summoning of the wisdom being into the commitment being is just a reminder that our real state has always been naturally perfected as a mandala, but there is no actual wisdom being that is summoned.
IMO, that is precisely the idea that defeats the practice of Westerners.
No, it is a statement that is repeated in hundreds of commentaries on sadhana practice.
I think it is worth encouraging people to go to the effort to ask a traditional Tibetan lama about it. Don't you agree?
Since you are the one who is confused, I think you are the one who needs to go and clarify this for yourself.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: What is faith?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Since you are the one who is confused, I think you are the one who needs to go and clarify this for yourself.
That sounds like you are worried about what a traditional lama would answer.

In a nutshell the question is: Does the ultimate nature of the deity negate its relative nature, and therefore make faith unnecessary?

If people go and ask their traditional Vajrayana/Tibetan teachers and they don't agree with me, I'll be happy with that. At least they got it from the horse's mouth and not the internet.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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