Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Aemilius
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Aemilius »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:59 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:06 pm
LastLegend wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am

Those who get this consciousness to disappear will then destroy the obstructing confusions of the Bodhisattvas of the ten stages. Once this consciousness is gone, then the mind is open and still, quiet, serene and calm, perfectly pure, and enormously stable.[/i]

https://terebess.hu/zen/daman.html
The author does not say how long it will take to traverse the Ten bodhisattva stages. It can be 10 000 years, 100 000 years, 100 000 000 years or more..
In the Lotus Sutra...
Actually, Buddhahood can be instantaneous. It takes a long time because people have hangups about how long it takes.
Mañjuśrī said: “In the ocean I always expounded only the Lotus Sutra.”

Then Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying: “This sutra is profound and subtle. It is a jewel among sutras and rare in the world. If sentient beings
diligently strive to practice this sutra, will they immediately become buddhas or not?”

Mañjuśrī answered: “Yes, they will. There is the daughter of the nāga king Sāgara who is only eight years old. She is wise; her faculties are sharp; and she also well knows all the faculties and deeds of sentient beings. She has attained the power of recollection. She preserves all the profound secret treasures taught by the buddhas, enters deep meditation, and is well capable of discerning all dharmas. She instantly produced the thought of enlightenment and attained the stage of nonretrogression. She has unhindered eloquence and thinks of sentient beings with as much compassion as if they were her own children. Her virtues are perfect. Her thoughts and explanations are subtle and extensive, merciful, and compassionate. She has a harmonious mind and has attained enlightenment.”

The Bodhisattva Prajñākūṭa said: “I see the Tathāgata Śākyamuni who has been incessantly carrying out difficult and severe practices for immeasurable kalpas, accumulating merit and virtue while seeking the bodhisattva path. Looking into the great manifold cosmos, there is not a single place even the size of a mustard seed where this bodhisattva has not abandoned his life for the sake of sentient beings. He attained the path to enlightenment only after this. It is hard to believe that this girl will instantly attain complete enlightenment.” Before he had finished speaking the daughter of the nāga king suddenly appeared in their presence. Bowing until her forehead touched their feet, she withdrew to one side and spoke these verses in praise:

The Buddha is deeply versed
In the characteristics of good and evil,
And he completely illuminates the ten directions.
His subtle and pure Dharma body
Is endowed with the thirty-two marks;
With the eighty good characteristics
Is his Dharma body adorned.
He is adored by devas and humans,
And honored by nāgas.
There is no sentient being
Who does not pay him homage.
Moreover, that I will attain enlightenment
Upon hearing him
Can only be known by a buddha.
I will reveal the teaching of the Mahayana
And save suffering sentient beings.

At that time Śāriputra spoke to the daughter of the nāga king, saying:

“You say that you will soon attain the highest path. This is difficult to believe. Why is this? The female body is polluted; it is not a fit vessel for the Dharma. How can you attain highest enlightenment?

“The buddha path is long. One can only attain it after diligently carrying out severe practices, and completely practicing the perfections over immeasurable kalpas. Moreover, the female body has five obstructions. The first is the inability to become a great Brahma. The second is the inability to become Śakra. The third is the inability to become Māra, and the fourth is the inability to become a universal monarch (cakravartin). The fifth is the inability to become a buddha. How can you with your female body quickly become a buddha?”

Then the daughter of the nāga king presented to the Buddha a jewel worth the great manifold cosmos, and the Buddha accepted it. The daughter of the nāga king spoke to Bodhisattva Prajñā kūṭa and the noble Śāriputra, saying: “I offered a jewel and the Bhagavat accepted it. Was that done quickly
or not?”

They answered, saying: “It was done extremely quickly!”

The daughter said: “Through your transcendent powers watch me become a buddha even more quickly than that!”

Then the assembly there all saw the daughter of the nāga king instantly transform into a man, perfect the bodhisattva practices, go to the vimalā world in the south, sit on a jeweled lotus flower, and attain highest, complete enlightenment, become endowed with the thirty-two marks and eighty excellent characteristics, and expound the True Dharma universally for the sake of all sentient beings in the ten directions. Then the bodhisattvas, śrāvakas, eight kinds of devas, nāgas, and so on, humans and nonhumans of the sahā world, all saw in the distance that the daughter of the nāga king had become a buddha and was universally teaching the Dharma for the sake of the humans and devas in that assembly. They rejoiced greatly and honored her from afar.
Alternatively, here's the translation of that passage from the Tibetan:
Mañjuśrī answered, “In the ocean I taught The Sūtra of the White Lotus of the Good Dharma and nothing else.” [F.99.b]

11.­92
“This sūtra is profound, subtle, and difficult to see,” said Prajñākūṭa. “There is no other sūtra that is its equal. Is there a being who is able to comprehend this sūtra jewel and attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood?”

11.­93
“Noble one,” answered Mañjuśrī, “there is the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, who was born eight years ago. She has great wisdom, sharp faculties. The actions of her body, speech, and mind are preceded by wisdom. She has attained the retention by which she remembers the words and meaning of the teachings of all tathāgatas. She has attained in an instant a thousand samādhis of meditation on all phenomena and all beings. She has irreversible aspiration for enlightenment. She has made vast prayers. She cares for all beings as she would for herself. She can develop qualities and never lose them. She has a smiling face. She has a perfect, magnificent complexion. She has a loving mind. She speaks with compassion. She is able to attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.”

11.­94
Prajñākūṭa said, “I have seen that when the bhagavān tathāgata Śākyamuni had become a bodhisattva dedicated to attaining enlightenment, he generated much merit, and his diligence never weakened throughout thousands of eons. There is nowhere throughout the worlds of the realm of a billion worlds, not even a place the size of a mustard seed, where he has not given up his own body for the sake of beings. Only after all that did he attain the enlightenment of buddhahood. Who can believe that the daughter of Sāgara could attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood in an instant?”

11.­95
Then at that time the daughter of Sāgara, the king of the nāgas, appeared before them. She bowed her head to the feet of the Bhagavān, sat down on one side, and recited these verses:

“His merit, that merit393 is profound,
And pervades every direction. [F.100.a]
His subtle body is adorned
By the thirty-two signs. {49}
11.­96
“He has the excellent features.
All beings pay homage to him.
All beings come to him
Like they do to a market town. {50}
11.­97
“The Tathāgata is my witness
That my wish is for enlightenment.
I will teach extensively
The Dharma that liberates from suffering.” {51}
11.­98
At that time Śāriputra said to the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, “Noble lady, although you have an irreversible aspiration for enlightenment and immeasurable wisdom, it will be difficult for you to attain enlightenment. Noble lady, a woman may maintain diligence, create merit for many thousands of eons, and complete the six perfections, but still she will not attain buddhahood. Why is that? It is because a woman has still not attained five states. What are these five? The first is the state of being a Brahmā, the second is the state of being a Śakra, the third is the state of being one of the four mahārājas, the fourth is the state of being a cakravartin, and the fifth is the state of being an irreversible bodhisattva.”

11.­99
At that time, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, had a jewel of the value of an entire realm of a billion worlds. The daughter of the nāga king offered it to the Bhagavān, and the Bhagavān accepted it out of compassion.

11.­100
The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, then asked Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra, “Did the Bhagavān quickly accept the jewel that I offered to the Bhagavān, or not?”

“You offered it quickly and the Bhagavān accepted it quickly,” the sthavira answered.

The daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, said, “Venerable Śāriputra, if I have great miraculous power, I will attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood even more quickly than that jewel was accepted.” [F.100.b]

11.­101
Thereupon, in front of the entire world, and in front of Sthavira Śāriputra, the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, manifested the vanishing of her female genitalia, the appearance of male genitalia, and her transformation into a bodhisattva.

11.­102
That bodhisattva now went to the south and, in a southern world realm named Vimalā, manifested the attainment of perfect buddhahood while seated at the foot of a tree made of the seven precious materials.

11.­103
That buddha had a body that possessed all thirty-two signs and the excellent features, and shone with a light that pervaded the ten directions as he gave the teaching of the Dharma. All beings in this Sahā world realm saw all the devas, nāgas, yakṣas, gandharvas, asuras, garuḍas, kinnaras, mahoragas, humans, and nonhumans paying homage to that tathāgata and saw him teaching them the Dharma. All those beings who listened to that tathāgata’s Dharma teaching attained irreversible progress toward the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.

11.­104
That Vimalā world realm and this Sahā world realm both shook in six ways. Three thousand beings within the circle of Bhagavān Śākyamuni’s assembly attained receptivity to the birthlessness of phenomena, and three thousand received the prophecies of their attainment of the highest, complete enlightenment.

At this, the bodhisattva mahāsattva Prajñākūṭa and Sthavira Śāriputra fell silent.
No offense, but you guys are arguing about angels on a pin. If you think you have a long way, then you're making your own prophecy. That's how it works. But by all means, keep scrubbing those toilets!

Amitabha's vows work for the same reason the Wizard of Oz could make the lion brave.

The echoes of Shariputra's encounter with the nymph in Vimalakirti's house should be noted. In that text, he freaks out when he becomes a woman, among other freakouts that prevent him and other sravakas from freely participating in the assembly.
Suppose you attain the buddhahood in one second, what then? What do you do for the next five million kalpas?
Do you think Buddhahood is substantially existent?
Last edited by Aemilius on Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by haha »

Many people reinterpret various matter based on their preconceived notions. Chinese version and Tibetan version do have slightly different narrative which might productive dramatic difference in reinterpretation. Doctrinal biasness, translator biasness, interpreter biasness, etc. people add and subtract and interpolate the original narrative with their own notion.
Thereupon Bodhisattva Prajñākūṭa spoke these verses in praise:
O One of great wisdom, virtue, and courage!
This assembly and I have now all witnessed that
You have led and inspired
Incalculable numbers of sentient beings.
You have expounded the essential character of dharmas
And revealed the teaching of the single vehicle.
You have extensively led many sentient beings,
Causing them to quickly attain enlightenment.

Mañjuśrī said: “In the ocean I always expounded only the Lotus Sutra.”

The Lotus Sutra, Chapter XII, BDK English Tripiṭaka Series
What types of logic is this? Common people having mere vision of Manjusri would demonstrate incomparable of insight and penetration of dharma. If Manjusri in the context of the Lotus Sutra explains the essential character of dharmas, it is hard to believe people might still have ignorance; they would not reach the proximity of full and complete enlightenment (anuttara samyak sambodhi). People believe that certain winds entering into certain channel and they can experience non-conceptuality (nirvikalpa/avikalpa jnana) which is one aspect of the dharmakaya; then proceed in that path, they can attain full and complete enlightenment in one life time; and explainers of such methods are only in verge of samvara and prayoga marga and maybe some have crossed. There is no difference between Manjusri and Buddha (their attainment of anuttar samyak sambodhi). In the context of the lotus sutra, he is also unsurpassable explainer of dharma. Different people understand same teaching very differently. Here, it has variation in translation (or version changed in course of time). Please remember causing them to quickly attain enlightenment. Tibetan version does not give this understanding. In that case, there is no wonder how Tibetan master did interpret.


Reading the following translations might give the dramatic difference in meaning and interpretation.
Chinese version:
Then Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying: “This sutra is profound and subtle. It is a jewel among sutras and rare in the world. If sentient beings diligently strive to practice this sutra, will they immediately become buddhas or not?”

Mañjuśrī answered: “Yes, they will. There is the daughter of the nāga king Sāgara who is only eight years old.


Tibetan version:
“This sūtra is profound, subtle, and difficult to see,” said Prajñākūṭa. “There is no other sūtra that is its equal. Is there a being who is able to comprehend this sūtra jewel and attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood?”

“Noble one,” answered Mañjuśrī, “there is the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, who was born eight years ago.


I sound like the superstitious, conservative and fundamentalist which I am not; but might be the anarchist in term of reading the literature. Rahula is not the son of Sakyamuni through union but with relation because tenth bhumi bodhisattva does not go for union and produce children. Besides, Tathagata has impartiality towards Shariputra, Rahula, Devadatta and Yashodhara.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Zhen Li »

I think this discussion is off-topic, at this point, but that's not the "Chinese version" it's just BDK's version which is notoriously inaccurate.

I don't read Tibetan, but the Chinese is essentially the same as Sanskrit there:
有娑竭羅龍王女,年始八歲...
asti kulaputra sāgarasya nāgarājño duhitā aṣṭavarṣā jātyā
"There is..."

I'll translate the passage from Kumarajiva's Chinese, which is identical to the Sanskrit.

Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying, "This sūtra is extremely profound and subtle. It is exceedingly rare among all jewels of sūtras in the world. Supposing sentient beings diligently apply themselves to practicing this sūtra, will they quickly attain Buddhahood?"

Mañjuśrī said, "There is the daughter of Sāgara, the Nāgarāja, who is only eight years old....

As for the 令 in the last line of Kumarajiva's verse there (令速成菩提) it is not necessarily cause in the sense that Mañjuśrī is doing the action, could simply like "so that they may." The 84000 translation has "that by..." So, the problem in Kumarajiva's translation isn't the cause, but the fact that he doesn't translate it in the form of a question, which it is in Sanskrit (i.e. kasya and kaṃ).

Anyway, just as a purely translation-related comment, I just want to add that mistakes or variations in translations are not necessarily about "bias." In fact, I think most translators act in good faith and want to be accurate. It's usually just more simply a matter of misunderstanding the source text, or trying to skilfully weave the same "functional equivalency" into the constraints of metre. Kumarajiva, despite some inaccuracies, did a greater service to Buddhism as a whole by rendering the Lotus Sutra, and many others, in Chinese that is not only comprehensible and functionally equivalent to the Sanskrit, but also beautiful. In contemporary English translation, there is really no one who translates like that—we used to see actually accurate translation into verse, like the Cowell edited translations of the Jātakas.

As an example of actual bias, we could note translators' choices to excise parts of sutras. Conze's relentless cutting in his translation of the Aṣṭa is an example of damage done to the source text in translation. Horner excluded sexual passages in her translations. And Geene Reeves and Robert Thurman incorporated Greek mythology into Buddhism. But this kind of thing is really rare—despite all the basic translation mistakes (done, I think, in good faith), we don't really see that kind of "bias" in the BDK translation. It is worth criticising translations in order to point out mistakes so that they can be corrected, but one should also give the translators the benefit of the doubt in regard to the question of their intention and biases.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:42 am Suppose you attain the buddhahood in one second, what then? What do you do for the next five million kalpas?
Do you think Buddhahood is substantially existent?
The answer to the first question... time? what's that?

In answer to the second I pose another question - is any of this stuff in these sutras substantially existent? What is Buddha saying in the Lotus? If everything, from his birth to death was a show, what does that make everything he uttered or purported to utter? "Come children, get your toys!"

---

My daughter said to her older brother, "The tooth fairy is mommy and daddy." He didn't want to hear it, but at some point, when belief in those words wasn't necessary for his pecuniary gain, he came around to accepting them. My daughter, on the other hand, is now losing her teeth and bought in.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:18 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:42 am Suppose you attain the buddhahood in one second, what then? What do you do for the next five million kalpas?
Do you think Buddhahood is substantially existent?
The answer to the first question... time? what's that?

In answer to the second I pose another question - is any of this stuff in these sutras substantially existent? What is Buddha saying in the Lotus? If everything, from his birth to death was a show, what does that make everything he uttered or purported to utter? "Come children, get your toys!"

---

My daughter said to her older brother, "The tooth fairy is mommy and daddy." He didn't want to hear it, but at some point, when belief in those words wasn't necessary for his pecuniary gain, he came around to accepting them. My daughter, on the other hand, is now losing her teeth and bought in.
The point of the bodhisattva career, as opposed to the arhat, is that it is supposed to be arduous, difficult, and seemingly impossible. If one isn’t up for that, then one’s bodhicitta is for shit. On the other hand, if one wants to tarry one the path, and not attain awakening as rapidly as possible, then one’s bodhicitta is for shit. Hence the conflicting narratives about the length of the bodhisattva path.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

haha wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:03 am Many people reinterpret various matter based on their preconceived notions. Chinese version and Tibetan version do have slightly different narrative which might productive dramatic difference in reinterpretation. Doctrinal biasness, translator biasness, interpreter biasness, etc. people add and subtract and interpolate the original narrative with their own notion.
Thereupon Bodhisattva Prajñākūṭa spoke these verses in praise:
O One of great wisdom, virtue, and courage!
This assembly and I have now all witnessed that
You have led and inspired
Incalculable numbers of sentient beings.
You have expounded the essential character of dharmas
And revealed the teaching of the single vehicle.
You have extensively led many sentient beings,
Causing them to quickly attain enlightenment.

Mañjuśrī said: “In the ocean I always expounded only the Lotus Sutra.”

The Lotus Sutra, Chapter XII, BDK English Tripiṭaka Series
What types of logic is this? Common people having mere vision of Manjusri would demonstrate incomparable of insight and penetration of dharma. If Manjusri in the context of the Lotus Sutra explains the essential character of dharmas, it is hard to believe people might still have ignorance; they would not reach the proximity of full and complete enlightenment (anuttara samyak sambodhi). People believe that certain winds entering into certain channel and they can experience non-conceptuality (nirvikalpa/avikalpa jnana) which is one aspect of the dharmakaya; then proceed in that path, they can attain full and complete enlightenment in one life time; and explainers of such methods are only in verge of samvara and prayoga marga and maybe some have crossed. There is no difference between Manjusri and Buddha (their attainment of anuttar samyak sambodhi). In the context of the lotus sutra, he is also unsurpassable explainer of dharma. Different people understand same teaching very differently. Here, it has variation in translation (or version changed in course of time). Please remember causing them to quickly attain enlightenment. Tibetan version does not give this understanding. In that case, there is no wonder how Tibetan master did interpret.


Reading the following translations might give the dramatic difference in meaning and interpretation.
Chinese version:
Then Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying: “This sutra is profound and subtle. It is a jewel among sutras and rare in the world. If sentient beings diligently strive to practice this sutra, will they immediately become buddhas or not?”

Mañjuśrī answered: “Yes, they will. There is the daughter of the nāga king Sāgara who is only eight years old.


Tibetan version:
“This sūtra is profound, subtle, and difficult to see,” said Prajñākūṭa. “There is no other sūtra that is its equal. Is there a being who is able to comprehend this sūtra jewel and attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood?”

“Noble one,” answered Mañjuśrī, “there is the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, who was born eight years ago.
First, I think you are on the right track, but I don't think that difference in translation matters. The scene continues to make it clear the issue is, can Sagara's daughter instantaneously attain enlightenment.

Second point I'll make clear at the outset to make clear my perspective, this is a story. It didn't really happen - like most of the stories in the sutras. Its a symbolic work of fiction. There is a big conversation to be had regarding these narrative sutras in Mahayana world-building. They create this cosmic model in which practitioners can place themselves and identify their context. Stories, as Joseph Campbell famously observed, are means of establishing meaning and offering guidance in our actions. I am certain, the authors of texts like the Lotus and other vaipulya Mahayana sutras knew exactly what they were doing when they composed these narrative stories. In fact, the whole upaya line in the Lotus is precisely an explanation of this method. Its why I am fond of saying, the Lotus is the story that pulls back the curtain on the Mahayana myth making process - like when Toto pulls back the curtain and reveals the Wizard of Oz is a fat middle aged man with a microphone and a color projector. Some people don't see it this way and think these stories in the sutras are accounts of things that actually happened. I guess we have little common ground and I don't have a proposal to bridge that chasm. So, I'll just go on.

There are two fictional skeptics here - Prajnakuta, a Common Mahayana bodhisattva, and Sariputra, a sravaka arhat. The Lotus as a whole critiques both of these views, painting them as provisional. We can conclude that these characters are intended to be representatives of their classes.

Prajnakuta expresses the view of the Common Mahayana bodhisattva:
The Bodhisattva Prajñākūṭa said: “I see the Tathāgata Śākyamuni who has been incessantly carrying out difficult and severe practices for immeasurable kalpas, accumulating merit and virtue while seeking the bodhisattva path. Looking into the great manifold cosmos, there is not a single place even the size of a mustard seed where this bodhisattva has not abandoned his life for the sake of sentient beings. He attained the path to enlightenment only after this. It is hard to believe that this girl will instantly attain complete enlightenment.”
-BDK

The Tibetan version also makes clear that this instantaneous awakening is the point of skepticism:
Prajñākūṭa said, “I have seen that when the bhagavān tathāgata Śākyamuni had become a bodhisattva dedicated to attaining enlightenment, he generated much merit, and his diligence never weakened throughout thousands of eons. There is nowhere throughout the worlds of the realm of a billion worlds, not even a place the size of a mustard seed, where he has not given up his own body for the sake of beings. Only after all that did he attain the enlightenment of buddhahood. Who can believe that the daughter of Sāgara could attain the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood in an instant?”
At this point, Sagara's daughter appears, greets the Buddha, and drops a jewel in his hand. This offering of the jewel is critical. The time it takes for that jewel to drop into Shakyamuni's hand is the length of time against which Sagara's daughters path to buddhahood is timed.

In Buddhist literature, sometimes the Buddha teaches, and sometimes others teach, with the Buddha's seal of approval. In accepting the jewel, the Buddha is giving his seal of approval to Sagara's daughter. So, while its plausible this is another one of the Buddha's upaya displays like the doctor sending word to his children that he is dead, to get there one has to get into some Princess Bride battle of wits level rationalizing. Ocaam's razor and all that. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Kublai Kahn's preceptor clearly had a political and pecuniary interest in securing support for his Tibetan Buddhist institutions. Sometimes when people are seeking funding or straining to assert the truth of their ideologies, they'll twist themselves into knots to convince themselves and others of things. I suppose, in the big picture, this is preferable to asserting truth with a blade. I digress.

Shariputra expresses the view of the Sravaka:
“You say that you will soon attain the highest path. This is difficult to believe. Why is this? The female body is polluted; it is not a fit vessel for the Dharma. How can you attain highest enlightenment?

“The buddha path is long. One can only attain it after diligently carrying out severe practices, and completely practicing the perfections over immeasurable kalpas. Moreover, the female body has five obstructions. The first is the inability to become a great Brahma. The second is the inability to become Śakra. The third is the inability to become Māra, and the fourth is the inability to become a universal monarch (cakravartin). The fifth is the inability to become a buddha. How can you with your female body quickly become a buddha?”
-BDK

and the 84000 translation from the Tibetan:
At that time Śāriputra said to the daughter of Sāgara, king of the nāgas, “Noble lady, although you have an irreversible aspiration for enlightenment and immeasurable wisdom, it will be difficult for you to attain enlightenment. Noble lady, a woman may maintain diligence, create merit for many thousands of eons, and complete the six perfections, but still she will not attain buddhahood. Why is that? It is because a woman has still not attained five states. What are these five? The first is the state of being a Brahmā, the second is the state of being a Śakra, the third is the state of being one of the four mahārājas, the fourth is the state of being a cakravartin, and the fifth is the state of being an irreversible bodhisattva.”
The Common Mahayana bodhisattva, attached to this idea of buddhahood taking eons, can't believe this little snake girl can instantly become a buddha. Shariputra is hung up on her being female and an animal. These we can see are the hangups of two groups who are criticized throughout the text, so this scene fits right into the whole of the narrative.

And then what happens? In an instant, she traverses the whole buddha path and becomes a buddha. Its all a miraculous display, but nothing extraordinary - people have been having psychedelic visions throughout the story.

I get it if this story doesn't fit into your version of Buddhism. This text is addressing and playing with that point of tension throughout as one of its main themes. And rest assured - its just a story, so don't worry about it.

Carry on as you will anyway. Just the trite opinion of some unenlightened fool treating sacred books as fictional literature. The horror.
Last edited by Queequeg on Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:42 am Suppose you attain the buddhahood in one second, what then? What do you do for the next five million kalpas?
Do you think Buddhahood is substantially existent?
Buddhahood is awareness,
completely unobstructed.
What we experience now is awareness, obstructed.

So to address the question of whether Buddhahood “substantially” exists, you need to decide whether or not your awareness now “substantially” exists.

Yours and my awareness and Buddha’s awareness is the same. The difference is that ours is obstructed by kleshas, and a Buddha’s awareness is not.
A Buddha’s awareness is perfectly clear and unlimited. Ours is distorted and limited.

The more you examine that question, the more likely you are to come to the conclusion that it is actually a ridiculous question, because you already possess awareness.

So, the question ought to be whether the complete removal of obscurations (to perfect awareness) is possible. The point of the Buddha is that of an example. Apparently, it is possible, because supposedly the Buddha attained it.

So either way. You can just as easily ask, “suppose you do not attain realization right now. What do you do for the next five million kalpas?” Because either you will do that as a Buddha or not. But if you progress along the path, it shouldn’t take five million kalpas.

The path may be long, but who knows where you are on it? Vajrayana Buddhists say one can attain full realization in seven lifetimes. But perhaps you are already on the sixth. The fact that any of us shows any interest whatsoever, or any commitment to dharma practice, should be seen as a result of causes. I don’t think anybody who is a “beginner” in this lifetime is really a “beginner” in the greater context. To be human and have access to the three jewels suggests we have already come a long way.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:26 pm The point of the bodhisattva career, as opposed to the arhat, is that it is supposed to be arduous, difficult, and seemingly impossible. If one isn’t up for that, then one’s bodhicitta is for shit. On the other hand, if one wants to tarry one the path, and not attain awakening as rapidly as possible, then one’s bodhicitta is for shit. Hence the conflicting narratives about the length of the bodhisattva path.
Prajnakuta? Is that you?

I kid.

Alternatively, this long arduous path which is supposed to as you say present the prospect of difficulty demanding extreme commitment, turns into this reified thing that traps people into all kinds of ideas. Just reveal it as a story and cut through it. Trust the audience to understand, waking up is hard. You don't need this haphazard story that evolved out of Sravaka jataka tales to impress the difficulty. It backfires and just turns into more crap to get attached to. Gives some people the excuse to say, Oh, its just too hard. Sometimes the cure for one ailment turns into the cause of another ailment requiring another cure. Ad infinitum. Maybe it is hard. Here's a pacifier then.

Or just cut it off.
Last edited by Queequeg on Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:46 pm The path may be long, but who knows where you are on it?
That's pretty clear, based on the qualities one has. They are described in detail in various sūtras and commentaries. Of course, there is a lot of wishful thinking amongst those of subitist bents about this stuff, but the reality is that we don't have those qualities. We are lucky if we are on the path of application, let along the path of accumulation.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:21 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:46 pm The path may be long, but who knows where you are on it?
That's pretty clear, based on the qualities one has. They are described in detail in various sūtras and commentaries. Of course, there is a lot of wishful thinking amongst those of subitist bents about this stuff, but the reality is that we don't have those qualities. We are lucky if we are on the path of application, let along the path of accumulation.
LOL. Or elaborate world building is just another way the mind distracts itself from the immediate task.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:21 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:46 pm The path may be long, but who knows where you are on it?
That's pretty clear, based on the qualities one has. They are described in detail in various sūtras and commentaries. Of course, there is a lot of wishful thinking amongst those of subitist bents about this stuff, but the reality is that we don't have those qualities. We are lucky if we are on the path of application, let along the path of accumulation.
LOL. Or elaborate world building is just another way the mind distracts itself from the immediate task.
People would be very fortunate to attain the path of seeing in this life, let alone buddhahood. My observation is that subitists continually lower the bar, so they can claim even the slightest meditative stability as the height of the two-fold omniscience.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:46 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:42 am Suppose you attain the buddhahood in one second, what then? What do you do for the next five million kalpas?
Do you think Buddhahood is substantially existent?
Buddhahood is awareness,
completely unobstructed.
What we experience now is awareness, obstructed.

So to address the question of whether Buddhahood “substantially” exists, you need to decide whether or not your awareness now “substantially” exists.

Yours and my awareness and Buddha’s awareness is the same. The difference is that ours is obstructed by kleshas, and a Buddha’s awareness is not.
A Buddha’s awareness is perfectly clear and unlimited. Ours is distorted and limited.

The more you examine that question, the more likely you are to come to the conclusion that it is actually a ridiculous question, because you already possess awareness.

So, the question ought to be whether the complete removal of obscurations (to perfect awareness) is possible. The point of the Buddha is that of an example. Apparently, it is possible, because supposedly the Buddha attained it.

So either way. You can just as easily ask, “suppose you do not attain realization right now. What do you do for the next five million kalpas?” Because either you will do that as a Buddha or not. But if you progress along the path, it shouldn’t take five million kalpas.

The path may be long, but who knows where you are on it? Vajrayana Buddhists say one can attain full realization in seven lifetimes. But perhaps you are already on the sixth. The fact that any of us shows any interest whatsoever, or any commitment to dharma practice, should be seen as a result of causes. I don’t think anybody who is a “beginner” in this lifetime is really a “beginner” in the greater context. To be human and have access to the three jewels suggests we have already come a long way.
Why the hurry? Bodhisattvas have unconditioned patience, how could they otherwise be called "bodhisattvas"?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:40 pm My observation is that subitists continually lower the bar, so they can claim even the slightest meditative stability as the height of the two-fold omniscience.
Maybe there are some wide eyed dreamers who fly the banner of Sudden Awakening over their rather ordinary achievements, but that wouldn't be unique to people claiming lineage in such traditions. The cuckoos and quacks are everywhere, aggrandizing their experiences with impressive sounding labels. If every tradition is judged by their flakes, charlatans, conmen, etc., then every single one is a failure, if not yet, just give it time.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by haha »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:41 am
I said Chinese version for the translation that relied on Chinese manuscript. According to Translators’ Introduction of the Lotus Sutra (i.e. BDK), “This translation was made from the Chinese version by Kumārajīva, the Miao fa lian hua jing, in seven fascicles (Taishō Vol. 9, No. 262, 1c12–62b1).”
Tibetan version has slightly different narrative.

Probably they might have different Sanskrit source. That I do not know. I can see one version of Sanskrit in dsbcproject.org, which is more or less same to Tibetan version. I am not criticizing any translation or translator. I am only talking about psychological aspect of preconceived notion. Some people are so attach to particular doctrine that they never want to see various intended meaning in sutras and sastras. And so on.

Even though you have given translated (i.e. there is), I do not know how one is translating “asti” in that context or there is something else.



Queequeg wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:45 pm The Common Mahayana bodhisattva, attached to this idea of buddhahood taking eons, can't believe this little snake girl can instantly become a buddha. Shariputra is hung up on her being female and an animal. These we can see are the hangups of two groups who are criticized throughout the text, so this scene fits right into the whole of the narrative.

And then what happens? In an instant, she traverses the whole buddha path and becomes a buddha. Its all a miraculous display, but nothing extraordinary - people have been having psychedelic visions throughout the story.
Interesting reading!

While examining the contemporary Buddhist and non-buddhist literatures of similar timing, various perspectives are come to light. How to read such discourage and narrative as there are various models. If one does not know how to read, they said, one will only get basic story, not more than that.
The lotus sutra is using teaching through parables, allegory, etc. One can find similar parables in non-buddhist sources, too.

Take an example: how it introduces the concept of dharmakaya. The dharmakaya does not take birth and die, nor does it get enlightenment in course of time. The sutra uses different narrative to say it. People with different disposition may read it differently.

“However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable, limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood.”

One may surprise by reading Zhiyi’s explanation.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:40 pm My observation is that subitists continually lower the bar, so they can claim even the slightest meditative stability as the height of the two-fold omniscience.
Maybe there are some wide eyed dreamers who fly the banner of Sudden Awakening over their rather ordinary achievements, but that wouldn't be unique to people claiming lineage in such traditions. The cuckoos and quacks are everywhere, aggrandizing their experiences with impressive sounding labels. If every tradition is judged by their flakes, charlatans, conmen, etc., then every single one is a failure, if not yet, just give it time.
I was more referring to the idea of instant BUDDHAHOOD. Attaining the first bhumi "suddenly" is much more reasonable notion, though, even that is beyond most of us.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:06 pm The dharmakaya does not take birth and die, nor does it get enlightenment in course of time. The sutra uses different narrative to say it. People with different disposition may read it differently.
the dharmakāya isn't an agent, so of course it does not "get enlightened." It is the result of the gnosis accumulation.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Queequeg »

haha wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:06 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:41 am
I said Chinese version for the translation that relied on Chinese manuscript. According to Translators’ Introduction of the Lotus Sutra (i.e. BDK), “This translation was made from the Chinese version by Kumārajīva, the Miao fa lian hua jing, in seven fascicles (Taishō Vol. 9, No. 262, 1c12–62b1).”
Tibetan version has slightly different narrative.

Probably they might have different Sanskrit source. That I do not know. I can see one version of Sanskrit in dsbcproject.org, which is more or less same to Tibetan version.
I have not read the primary sources, but Michael Fuss in Buddhavacana and Dei Verbum summarized research that suggests the version Kumarajiva translated may have been a very early version now lost - even older than the version Dharmaraksa had used for his earlier Chinese translation, and both of these versions are much older than the ones found in Nepal which appear to be the versions translated into Tibetan.
Queequeg wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:45 pm The Common Mahayana bodhisattva, attached to this idea of buddhahood taking eons, can't believe this little snake girl can instantly become a buddha. Shariputra is hung up on her being female and an animal. These we can see are the hangups of two groups who are criticized throughout the text, so this scene fits right into the whole of the narrative.

And then what happens? In an instant, she traverses the whole buddha path and becomes a buddha. Its all a miraculous display, but nothing extraordinary - people have been having psychedelic visions throughout the story.
Interesting reading!

While examining the contemporary Buddhist and non-buddhist literatures of similar timing, various perspectives are come to light. How to read such discourage and narrative as there are various models. If one does not know how to read, they said, one will only get basic story, not more than that.
The lotus sutra is using teaching through parables, allegory, etc. One can find similar parables in non-buddhist sources, too.

Take an example: how it introduces the concept of dharmakaya. The dharmakaya does not take birth and die, nor does it get enlightenment in course of time. The sutra uses different narrative to say it. People with different disposition may read it differently.

“However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable, limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood.”

One may surprise by reading Zhiyi’s explanation.
Indeed. All of these texts are like rorschachs. They do tend in a certain directions, though. The Heart Sutra cannot be mistaken for a car repair manual. Some people see goat carts, others see deer carts. Yet others see ox carts.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:10 pm I was more referring to the idea of instant BUDDHAHOOD. Attaining the first bhumi "suddenly" is much more reasonable notion, though, even that is beyond most of us.
Right, Prajnakuta.

Sagara's daughter still treads the path, if that's what you're worried about. It just doesn't take eons. On the other hand, in praising Buddhahood, we constantly run the risk of turning it into something remote. In relating to Buddhahood, we run the risk of turning it into something ordinary. This tension has been there since the beginning - from the Buddha's consideration of whether he should even attempt to teach. Its in the tension of following a path and then getting trapped in the path, between the institutions and the forests. I've been taught, this is why we call it the middle path avoiding extremes.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:38 pm
Sagara's daughter still treads the path...It just doesn't take eons.
Of course it does. Three asamkhya kalpas, and only then if you are a superior practitioner.

This is why people want rebirth in Sukhavati.
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:37 pm Of course it does. Three asamkhya kalpas, and only then if you are a superior practitioner.

This is why people want rebirth in Sukhavati.
That is also why Shinran said that the implicit intent of all of Śākyamuni Buddha's teachings was birth in Sukhavatī:

The reason for the Buddha's appearance in the world
Is solely to expound the Primal Vow of Amida, wide and deep as the ocean.
All beings in the evil age of the five defilements
Should believe in the truth of the Buddha's words.
(Shoshinge)

Amida, who attained Buddhahood in the infinite past,
Full of compassion for foolish beings of the five defilements,
Took the form of Sakyamuni Buddha
And appeared in Gaya.
(Hymns of the Pure Land)

The teaching of the Pure Land way is found in the Larger Sutra of the Buddha of Immeasurable Life... It reveals that Shakyamuni appeared in this world and expounded the teachings of the way to Enlightenment, seeking to save the multitudes of living beings by blessing them with the benefit that is true and real. Assuredly this sutra is the true teaching for which the Tathagata appeared in the world... It reveals that Shakyamuni appeared in this world and expounded the teachings of the way to Enlightenment, rare and most excellent. It is the conclusive and ultimate exposition of the One Vehicle. It is the right teaching, praised by all the Buddhas throughout the ten quarters. To teach the Tathagata’s Primal Vow is the true intent of this sutra; the Name of the Buddha is its essence.
(KGSS I)
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Re: Skepticism of Pure Land among Mahayana adherents

Post by Zhen Li »

haha wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:06 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:41 am
I said Chinese version for the translation that relied on Chinese manuscript. According to Translators’ Introduction of the Lotus Sutra (i.e. BDK), “This translation was made from the Chinese version by Kumārajīva, the Miao fa lian hua jing, in seven fascicles (Taishō Vol. 9, No. 262, 1c12–62b1).”
Tibetan version has slightly different narrative.

Probably they might have different Sanskrit source. That I do not know. I can see one version of Sanskrit in dsbcproject.org, which is more or less same to Tibetan version. I am not criticizing any translation or translator. I am only talking about psychological aspect of preconceived notion. Some people are so attach to particular doctrine that they never want to see various intended meaning in sutras and sastras. And so on.

Even though you have given translated (i.e. there is), I do not know how one is translating “asti” in that context or there is something else.
The DSBC is Vaidya's. As I said, the prose is largely the same, Kumarajiva's verse is similar but comes across as a bit different. I think that whole passage is probably largely the same as the Sanskrit we have today. There are definitely parts of the Sanskrit that are entirely different today than whatever Kumarajiva was looking at.

As for "asti," there is not really a word for the English "yes" in Sanskrit or Buddhist Chinese. The closest would be something like "evam asti," or "thus it is." The 有 functions just like the asti in the Sanskrit I quoted, "there is a..." It could never be "yes." The BDK translation is just so unreliable that nobody should be referring to it.
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