If its just a story...

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tkp67
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:09 am
tkp67 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:56 pm

No, the claim is false, not supported by the text at all. It's up to you to prove the claim is true, you or Bodei.
It is absolutely supported by the text unless you have a citation where the buddha expresses doubt.
Your claim is that Buddha asserts in this text it is the text by means of which all buddhas attain buddhahood. Citation please. If you can’t produce it, your claim is false.
No I said that the text supports the claim that all buddhas are enlightened by this sutra which is an expression of the buddhas enlightenment. . However Expedient means illustrates this point in several passages. For brevity I will post just one.
I also announce to you, Shariputra,
that this profound, subtle, and wonderful Law
without outflows, incomprehensible,
I have now attained in full.
Only I understand its characteristics,
and the buddhas of the ten directions do likewise.
Shariputra, you should know
that the words of the various buddhas never differ.
I would also remind you that lotus based traditions require more than textual comparisons but practice within the framework of the traditions which you admitted you do not do at all.
Irrelevant to your claim.
No it is the basis of these teachings. The great vehicle and Shakyamuni's enlightenment are not separable ...
The buddhas appear in the world
solely for this one reason, which is true;
the other two are not the truth.
Never do they use a lesser vehicle
to save living beings and ferry them across.
The Buddha himself dwells in the great vehicle,
and adorned with the power of meditation and wisdom
that go with that Law he has attained,
he uses it to save living beings.
I myself testify to the unsurpassed way,
the great vehicle, the Law in which all things are equal.
If I used a lesser vehicle
to convert even one person,
I would be guilty of stinginess and greed,
but such a thing would be impossible.
All other teachings of the buddha are pandering the the lesser capacities of those who doubt.
If a person will believe and take refuge in the Buddha,
the thus come one will never deceive him,
nor will he ever show greed or jealousy,
for he has rooted out evil from among the phenomena.
Therefore throughout the ten directions
the Buddha alone is without fear.
I adorn my body with the special characteristics
and shine my light upon the world.
I am honored by numberless multitudes
and for them I preach the emblem of the reality of things.

p.70Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
ual to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the buddha way.
If when I encounter living beings
I were in all cases to teach them the buddha way,
those without wisdom would become confused
and in their bewilderment would fail to accept my teachings.

I know that such living beings
have never in the past cultivated good roots
but have stubbornly clung to the five desires,
and their folly and craving have given rise to affliction.

Their desires are the cause
whereby they fall into the three evil paths,
revolving wheel-like through the six paths of existence
and undergoing every sort of suffering and pain.
Having received a tiny form in the womb,
in existence after existence they constantly grow to maturity.

Persons of meager virtue and small merit,
they are troubled and beset by manifold sufferings.
They stray into the dense forest of mistaken views,
debating as to what exists and what does not,
and in the end cling to such views,
embracing all sixty-two of them.1
They are profoundly committed to false and empty doctrines,
holding firmly to them, unable to set them aside.
Arrogant and puffed up with self-importance,
p.71fawning and devious, insincere in mind,
for a thousand, ten thousand, a million kalpas
they will not hear a buddha’s name,
nor will they hear the correct teaching—
such people are difficult to save.
For these reasons, Shariputra,
I have for their sake established expedient means,
preaching the way that ends all suffering,
and showing them nirvana.
But although I preach nirvana,
this is not a true extinction.

All phenomena from the very first
have of themselves constantly borne the marks of tranquil extinction.
Once the sons of the Buddha have carried out the way,
then in future existences they will be able to become buddhas.
I have employed the power of expedient means
to unfold and demonstrate this doctrine of three vehicles,
but the world-honored ones, every one of them,
all preach the single vehicle way.

Now before this great assembly
I must clear away all doubts and perplexities.
There is no discrepancy in the words of the buddhas,
there is only the one vehicle, not two.

For numberless kalpas in the past
countless buddhas who have now entered extinction,
a hundred, thousand, ten thousand, million types
in numbers incapable of calculation—
such world-honored ones,
using different types of causes, similes, and parables,
the power of countless expedient means,
have expounded the characteristics of all phenomena.
These world-honored ones
have all preached the doctrine of the single vehicle,
converting countless living beings
and causing them to enter the buddha way.
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tkp67
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by tkp67 »

Can I get a citation on the skillful use of doubt or on the lotus being just a story?
Giovanni
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Giovanni »

Attempting to prove the validity of a scripture by quoting what is says about itself is a circular argument.
If we do not accept the basic provenance of a scripture to begin with we are not going to be convinced by its assessment of itself. :smile:
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:09 am
tkp67 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 am

It is absolutely supported by the text unless you have a citation where the buddha expresses doubt.
Your claim is that Buddha asserts in this text it is the text by means of which all buddhas attain buddhahood. Citation please. If you can’t produce it, your claim is false.
No I said that the text supports the claim that all buddhas are enlightened by this sutra which is an expression of the buddhas enlightenment. . However Expedient means illustrates this point in several passages. For brevity I will post just one.
You citation does not support your claim at all.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
narhwal90
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by narhwal90 »

tkp, if you are going to cite passages as proof you should probably reconcile the various translations beforehand. The 84000 translation reads quite differently in those sections. If you have decided that the Burton/BDK editions supersede the 84000 translation could you explain why that is?
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:07 pm Can I get a citation on the skillful use of doubt or on the lotus being just a story?
I never claimed the first, though you should go talk to Zen folks about their “great doubt”.

As for the second, “Thus have I heard…”
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

narhwal90 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:06 pm tkp, if you are going to cite passages as proof you should probably reconcile the various translations beforehand. The 84000 translation reads quite differently in those sections. If you have decided that the Burton/BDK editions supersede the 84000 translation could you explain why that is?
It’s useless. We are talking about sutras as literary productions, but he keeps pushing his sectarian agenda, which is off topic here.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Giovanni
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Giovanni »

Giovanni wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:49 pm Attempting to prove the validity of a scripture by quoting what is says about itself is a circular argument.
If we do not accept the basic provenance of a scripture to begin with we are not going to be convinced by its assessment of itself. :smile:
Just too add to this. The criteria I apply is to work backwards. I look at the fruits of practice..does a person seem wise, balanced, filled with Bodhicitta? If so I will attend to their recommendations on Sutras or commentaries. Otherwise not.
I have had many teachers who show those fruits. Most are Vajrayana, but not all. I have met Zen people with that same vibe.
And some Theravadin. There is an air.
People who are simply dogmatic and intense put me off their tradition. If I wanted that I would go to the Jehovah’s 😎
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Giovanni wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:49 pm Attempting to prove the validity of a scripture by quoting what is says about itself is a circular argument.
Not only that, but providing a citation itself is not proof, it has to be backed by reasoning. First we cite, then we provide reasoning for why we are citing this or that citation. This is basic to all debate in Buddhist schools.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
mabw
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by mabw »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:35 pm
Sure, dispensing with it as an actual physical cosmology is not so hard.
We can't really dispense with it if certain teachings directly involve it though, or alternatively we have to view it as something other than "out there".
This is something I've been pondering as well. Some parts may be dispensed with without much loss, but some have been incorporated into practices. I don't know if these are good examples but the concepts of the transference of merits, heaven and hell, the Western Pureland, the supplication to deities etc come to mind. What happens then?

Some reinterpret this to the Mind level, which will appeal to some more modern folks I imagine, but some treat these literally as presented in the texts.
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:07 pm ...the lotus being just a story?
“What do you think, Subhūti? Is there any dharma at all which the Tathāgata has preached?”

Subhūti said, “No indeed, Bhagāvan. There is no dharma at all, Bhagāvan, which the Tathāgata has preached.”


https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index ... 1133&mid=0
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Astus »

"the Tathāgata always teaches: ‘Monks, understand my correct teachings to be like a raft.’ If even my correct teachings are to be abandoned, how much more incorrect teachings?"
Diamond Sutra, ch 6
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:25 pm "the Tathāgata always teaches: ‘Monks, understand my correct teachings to be like a raft.’ If even my correct teachings are to be abandoned, how much more incorrect teachings?"
Diamond Sutra, ch 6
Perhaps this is a little better:

It was therefore with this in mind that the Tathāgata said that those who understand the round of teachings of the Simile of the Raft should let go of the dharmas themselves, to say nothing of the adharmas.

https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index ... t&vid=1133
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

mabw wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:35 pm
Sure, dispensing with it as an actual physical cosmology is not so hard.
We can't really dispense with it if certain teachings directly involve it though, or alternatively we have to view it as something other than "out there".
This is something I've been pondering as well. Some parts may be dispensed with without much loss, but some have been incorporated into practices. I don't know if these are good examples but the concepts of the transference of merits, heaven and hell, the Western Pureland, the supplication to deities etc come to mind. What happens then?

Some reinterpret this to the Mind level, which will appeal to some more modern folks I imagine, but some treat these literally as presented in the texts.
I remember a conversation on DW years back where a Lama was quoted as saying something like "the deities are pure reflections of the Dharmakaya, we are impure reflections". Now this seems a specifically a Tantric view and arguably represents just one viewpoint, but that would be a reasonable reply.

In that sense, differentiating between types of illusory phenomena is more about where they can lead than it is about their status as conventionally true or untrue. In the Buddhadharma phenomena cannot ultimately have different ontological status anyway.

As far as whether or not they are conventionally true, all of the teachers I have been around who have addressed this question did so by bringing up the actual size Vulture Peak and asking how many beings would really fit there.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttadinesso
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:51 pm
mabw wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:35 pm
Sure, dispensing with it as an actual physical cosmology is not so hard.
We can't really dispense with it if certain teachings directly involve it though, or alternatively we have to view it as something other than "out there".
This is something I've been pondering as well. Some parts may be dispensed with without much loss, but some have been incorporated into practices. I don't know if these are good examples but the concepts of the transference of merits, heaven and hell, the Western Pureland, the supplication to deities etc come to mind. What happens then?

Some reinterpret this to the Mind level, which will appeal to some more modern folks I imagine, but some treat these literally as presented in the texts.
I remember a conversation on DW years back where a Lama was quoted as saying something like "the deities are pure reflections of the Dharmakaya, we are impure reflections". Now this seems a specifically a Tantric view and arguably represents just one viewpoint, but that would be a reasonable reply.

In that sense, differentiating between types of illusory phenomena is more about where they can lead than it is about their status as conventionally true or untrue. In the Buddhadharma phenomena cannot ultimately have different ontological status anyway.

As far as whether or not they are conventionally true, all of the teachers I have been around who have addressed this question did so by bringing up the actual size Vulture Peak and asking how many beings would really fit there.
Nevertheless, the tendency of religious people to take refuge in fundamentalism, despite the overwhelming facts that contradict their beliefs, is amply demonstrated by the new religion of Qanon.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:55 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:51 pm
mabw wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:56 pm

This is something I've been pondering as well. Some parts may be dispensed with without much loss, but some have been incorporated into practices. I don't know if these are good examples but the concepts of the transference of merits, heaven and hell, the Western Pureland, the supplication to deities etc come to mind. What happens then?

Some reinterpret this to the Mind level, which will appeal to some more modern folks I imagine, but some treat these literally as presented in the texts.
I remember a conversation on DW years back where a Lama was quoted as saying something like "the deities are pure reflections of the Dharmakaya, we are impure reflections". Now this seems a specifically a Tantric view and arguably represents just one viewpoint, but that would be a reasonable reply.

In that sense, differentiating between types of illusory phenomena is more about where they can lead than it is about their status as conventionally true or untrue. In the Buddhadharma phenomena cannot ultimately have different ontological status anyway.

As far as whether or not they are conventionally true, all of the teachers I have been around who have addressed this question did so by bringing up the actual size Vulture Peak and asking how many beings would really fit there.
Nevertheless, the tendency of religious people to take refuge in fundamentalism, despite the overwhelming facts that contradict their beliefs, is amply demonstrated by the new religion of Qanon.

To me there are kind of two answers here, one that is upaya for non-Buddhists, and the one above, which is for Buddhists. I've found the one above is mostly incomprehensible to people of another belief system (and to plenty of Buddhists), who usually insist that things either simply exist or they don't. it all goes back to the two extremes, I just try to remember who I'm talking to.

As far as conventional reality, I definitely think it best to adhere to a sane version of it, and not make up weird nonsense on the spot, so to me it does not mean "we can just make whatever up and it's true", "Dudebro reality is a hologram like whoah" "I will manifest the stuff on my vision board" or whatever, it's just a way to view the stories we are talking about.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttadinesso
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:29 pmit's just a way to view the stories we are talking about.
Shaw's new book in the Digha Nikāya has a chapter where she deals with Buddhist mythopoeia. It should be required reading for all Buddhists.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:39 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:29 pmit's just a way to view the stories we are talking about.
Shaw's new book in the Digha Nikāya has a chapter where she deals with Buddhist mythopoeia. It should be required reading for all Buddhists.
What is it called? I couldn't find it by Googling.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttadinesso
Malcolm
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:39 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:29 pmit's just a way to view the stories we are talking about.
Shaw's new book in the Digha Nikāya has a chapter where she deals with Buddhist mythopoeia. It should be required reading for all Buddhists.
What is it called? I couldn't find it by Googling.
The Art of Listening: A Guide to the Early Teachings of Buddhism
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: If its just a story...

Post by Minobu »

Alchemists of old were paid by kings and queens to find the secret elixir to long life or immortality , turning lead into gold ...all of which were out right cons to the aristocracy to continue to get money and do their own secret meditations and heretical acts like working on chakras...\

I wonder if this went on with Chinese emperors thirsting for intellectual property at the time...Buddhism was the big topic from India and they did not want to be left out...

so stuff was created in order to appease and continue a life in the monastery or mountain retreat...


Tien Tai the great says he derived ichinen sanzen from the Lotus sutra...they can't come up with how...except using the Nyo ze so sunyata thing...this piece was always about Sunyata before Tein Tai the great says it is about the ten worlds and so on to the whole ichinen sanzen thing he devised and gave the Lotus sutra it' seal of approval...it being something in the Lotus sutra hidden...


His major works were all given to emperor and the last biggie never finished ...but given to emperor... whole

Nichiren also said he based his teaching on this stuff...
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