Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

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Hazel
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Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Hazel »

So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate. I've done as much of a daily sit as I can do without falling asleep and now I'm ready to move on to other activities. The trouble is, what I want to be doing is more practice or in someway further walking the path, but I'm simply too tired and my brain isn't cooperating.

How do you squeeze the extra dharma juices out of your day when you've done your daily sit and are too tired for service to your guru?
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 am So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate. I've done as much of a daily sit as I can do without falling asleep and now I'm ready to move on to other activities. The trouble is, what I want to be doing is more practice or in someway further walking the path, but I'm simply too tired and my brain isn't cooperating.

How do you squeeze the extra dharma juices out of your day when you've done your daily sit and are too tired for service to your guru?
Dream and sleep yoga.

I mean, "success" is slow, but I've come to believe it's an exceptionally profound practice, and all ya gotta do is learn some stuff you do while you go to sleep, learn some daytime reminders, do a little journaling (it's part of the lucidity thing) etc.

Even aside from any formal methods, just learning to maintain awareness during the process of falling asleep is pretty amazing.

I have taken a bunch of teachings, read a bunch of stuff, and learned a bunch of methods, as it's something I've tried to seek out. I recently read Dream Yoga by Andrew Holecek, who I think is a Kagyu guy. He has some modern lucid dreaming stuff in his presentation that I'd never heard before, that was helpful.

Of course it is always best to get instruction in such things from teachers you have particular devotion towards.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Hazel
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Hazel »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:22 am
Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 am So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate. I've done as much of a daily sit as I can do without falling asleep and now I'm ready to move on to other activities. The trouble is, what I want to be doing is more practice or in someway further walking the path, but I'm simply too tired and my brain isn't cooperating.

How do you squeeze the extra dharma juices out of your day when you've done your daily sit and are too tired for service to your guru?
Dream and sleep yoga.

I mean, "success" is slow, but I've come to believe it's an exceptionally profound practice, and all ya gotta do is learn some stuff you do while you go to sleep, learn some daytime reminders, do a little journaling (it's part of the lucidity thing) etc.

Even aside from any formal methods, just learning to maintain awareness during the process of falling asleep is pretty amazing.

I have taken a bunch of teachings, read a bunch of stuff, and learned a bunch of methods, as it's something I've tried to seek out. I recently read Dream Yoga by Andrew Holecek, who I think is a Kagyu guy. He has some modern lucid dreaming stuff in his presentation that I'd never heard before, that was helpful.

Of course it is always best to get instruction in such things from teachers you have particular devotion towards.
I have read a little about this on the forum in the past. Would this be considered tantra? Also, is there an equivalent in the Gelug tradition?

When I asked my teacher (Geshe/Gelugpa) when one is ready to practice tantra he said to practice more lamrim and lojong first. I feel like gelugpas take it slow....
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:22 am
Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 am So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate. I've done as much of a daily sit as I can do without falling asleep and now I'm ready to move on to other activities. The trouble is, what I want to be doing is more practice or in someway further walking the path, but I'm simply too tired and my brain isn't cooperating.

How do you squeeze the extra dharma juices out of your day when you've done your daily sit and are too tired for service to your guru?
Dream and sleep yoga.

I mean, "success" is slow, but I've come to believe it's an exceptionally profound practice, and all ya gotta do is learn some stuff you do while you go to sleep, learn some daytime reminders, do a little journaling (it's part of the lucidity thing) etc.

Even aside from any formal methods, just learning to maintain awareness during the process of falling asleep is pretty amazing.

I have taken a bunch of teachings, read a bunch of stuff, and learned a bunch of methods, as it's something I've tried to seek out. I recently read Dream Yoga by Andrew Holecek, who I think is a Kagyu guy. He has some modern lucid dreaming stuff in his presentation that I'd never heard before, that was helpful.

Of course it is always best to get instruction in such things from teachers you have particular devotion towards.
I have read a little about this on the forum in the past. Would this be considered tantra? Also, is there an equivalent in the Gelug tradition?

When I asked my teacher (Geshe/Gelugpa) when one is ready to practice tantra he said to practice more lamrim and lojong first. I feel like gelugpas take it slow....
Well that's Gelugs for ya, heh.

Anyway, I've had a few teachings on it, some are basically Vipaysana as you fall asleep, I can't imagine those being "Tantric". Others are connected to Tantra and to Dzogchen for sure. One of the teachings I've had is connected to a Yidam practice, but it didn't have any kind of formality, the teacher just said "well you do this Yidam practice anyway so do this". Then another I've had is a ton of techniques that come (AFAIK) from a specifics Tantra.

My hunch is that the "safe" thing would be to ask questions about applying shamatha/vipaysana as you fall asleep. Or even just find advice on it. It's not the sort of thing that should be restricted.

It really depends on whether you want to keep your studies narrow or not, there are good reasons for doing so, and I wouldn't want to condition you.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Hazel »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:54 am
Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:22 am

Dream and sleep yoga.

I mean, "success" is slow, but I've come to believe it's an exceptionally profound practice, and all ya gotta do is learn some stuff you do while you go to sleep, learn some daytime reminders, do a little journaling (it's part of the lucidity thing) etc.

Even aside from any formal methods, just learning to maintain awareness during the process of falling asleep is pretty amazing.

I have taken a bunch of teachings, read a bunch of stuff, and learned a bunch of methods, as it's something I've tried to seek out. I recently read Dream Yoga by Andrew Holecek, who I think is a Kagyu guy. He has some modern lucid dreaming stuff in his presentation that I'd never heard before, that was helpful.

Of course it is always best to get instruction in such things from teachers you have particular devotion towards.
I have read a little about this on the forum in the past. Would this be considered tantra? Also, is there an equivalent in the Gelug tradition?

When I asked my teacher (Geshe/Gelugpa) when one is ready to practice tantra he said to practice more lamrim and lojong first. I feel like gelugpas take it slow....
Well that's Gelugs for ya, heh.

Anyway, I've had a few teachings on it, some are basically Vipaysana as you fall asleep, I can't imagine those being "Tantric". Others are connected to Tantra and to Dzogchen for sure. One of the teachings I've had is connected to a Yidam practice, but it didn't have any kind of formality, the teacher just said "well you do this Yidam practice anyway so do this". Then another I've had is a ton of techniques that come (AFAIK) from a specifics Tantra.

My hunch is that the "safe" thing would be to ask questions about applying shamatha/vipaysana as you fall asleep. Or even just find advice on it. It's not the sort of thing that should be restricted.

It really depends on whether you want to keep your studies narrow or not, there are good reasons for doing so, and I wouldn't want to condition you.
How narrow I want to be is honestly to be seen. I think I probably would benefit to being somewhat narrow at first. Is the tantric side of this completely non-Gelugpa?
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 am I have read a little about this on the forum in the past. Would this be considered tantra? Also, is there an equivalent in the Gelug tradition?

When I asked my teacher (Geshe/Gelugpa) when one is ready to practice tantra he said to practice more lamrim and lojong first. I feel like gelugpas take it slow....
There is dream yoga in the Gelug tradition but it is only used in highest yoga tantra and in general gelugpas take it slow working through the lam rim to have a solid foundation.

Ling Rinpoche said that if you go to sleep with a mind of bodhichitta then you generate virtue in your sleep, Lama Zopa Rinpoche also mentions meditating on emptiness as you sleep.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Budai »

I used to be very strict with Buddhist practice and ideals (such as diet, even to the point of not allowing myself to eat certain types of sugar) but when my life put me into a position where I had to adapt to my environment, I allowed myself more rest and lucid peace reconnecting to the outside world, this all the while made me more serious about helping other people, and I progressed more in a few years of Practice than I did in many years, because I learned to pace myself. ”Pace” still echoes in my mind at times. I have found Middle-Way is about not overboudining yourself. I hope you find the rest you need. And continue on the Practice you determine for! Thank you, Hazel. I like the animal in your Avatar, my friend was telling me about those the other day. They are vegetarian and eat water lettuce! :smile:

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Last edited by Budai on Wed May 12, 2021 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

The dharma of resting is important too.
“Practice” isn’t just about ritual activity or even meditation. It’s also about throwing all your activities , whatever they are, into Dharma. Eating, sleeping, pooping, bringing that into awareness.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:13 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:54 am
Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 am

I have read a little about this on the forum in the past. Would this be considered tantra? Also, is there an equivalent in the Gelug tradition?

When I asked my teacher (Geshe/Gelugpa) when one is ready to practice tantra he said to practice more lamrim and lojong first. I feel like gelugpas take it slow....
Well that's Gelugs for ya, heh.

Anyway, I've had a few teachings on it, some are basically Vipaysana as you fall asleep, I can't imagine those being "Tantric". Others are connected to Tantra and to Dzogchen for sure. One of the teachings I've had is connected to a Yidam practice, but it didn't have any kind of formality, the teacher just said "well you do this Yidam practice anyway so do this". Then another I've had is a ton of techniques that come (AFAIK) from a specifics Tantra.

My hunch is that the "safe" thing would be to ask questions about applying shamatha/vipaysana as you fall asleep. Or even just find advice on it. It's not the sort of thing that should be restricted.

It really depends on whether you want to keep your studies narrow or not, there are good reasons for doing so, and I wouldn't want to condition you.
How narrow I want to be is honestly to be seen. I think I probably would benefit to being somewhat narrow at first. Is the tantric side of this completely non-Gelugpa?
Yeah, that is a very personal decision. There is no right or wrong answer, and the gradualist path is valid and deep, I admire the discipline of the Gelug setup. The teachings I've had on Sleep/Dream Yoga are (I believe) Nyingma, Kagyu, and Bonpo. Some were pretty informal though, like I said.

I mean, you can also just get Andrew Holecek's book and try it, it just depends on what your teacher says, your relationship with their teaching framework, etc.

At any rate, going to sleep while meditating on Bodhicitta, or experiencing the stages of sleep through Shamatha/Vipaysana is not a restricted practice, I imagine. I'll bet there is something or other you can do sleep-practice wise in Gelug.

I have had retreats with my Sakya teacher where he gave basic sleeping instructions based on the Four Immeasurables, Shamatha, etc.

that Andrew Holecek book also has these sorts of methods, much of the instruction is just how to take basic meditation into the sleep state.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by tobes »

Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 am So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate. I've done as much of a daily sit as I can do without falling asleep and now I'm ready to move on to other activities. The trouble is, what I want to be doing is more practice or in someway further walking the path, but I'm simply too tired and my brain isn't cooperating.

How do you squeeze the extra dharma juices out of your day when you've done your daily sit and are too tired for service to your guru?
Think of this form of tiredness as an obscuration that needs to be (gradually, over time) dispelled. So, on that basis, doing more practices aimed at clearing obscurations rather than trying to force a formal sit. i.e. fire puja, vajrasattva, prostrations etc.

If in doing those practices, your mind clears/brightens/awakens, then you have your answer.

If not, you may be pushing too hard, and too conceptually. In this case, allow yourself the time and space to relax and recharge. 15 minutes of really highly quality Dharma practice is worth much more than 4 hours of sluggish slog.

Tonglen as you're going to sleep is also a good practice to adopt; it doesn't require as much as lucidity as dream yoga, nor any specific tantric teachings.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:22 am
Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 am So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate. I've done as much of a daily sit as I can do without falling asleep and now I'm ready to move on to other activities. The trouble is, what I want to be doing is more practice or in someway further walking the path, but I'm simply too tired and my brain isn't cooperating.

How do you squeeze the extra dharma juices out of your day when you've done your daily sit and are too tired for service to your guru?
Dream and sleep yoga.

I mean, "success" is slow, but I've come to believe it's an exceptionally profound practice, and all ya gotta do is learn some stuff you do while you go to sleep, learn some daytime reminders, do a little journaling (it's part of the lucidity thing) etc.

Even aside from any formal methods, just learning to maintain awareness during the process of falling asleep is pretty amazing.

I have taken a bunch of teachings, read a bunch of stuff, and learned a bunch of methods, as it's something I've tried to seek out. I recently read Dream Yoga by Andrew Holecek, who I think is a Kagyu guy. He has some modern lucid dreaming stuff in his presentation that I'd never heard before, that was helpful.

Of course it is always best to get instruction in such things from teachers you have particular devotion towards.
I have read a little about this on the forum in the past. Would this be considered tantra? Also, is there an equivalent in the Gelug tradition?

When I asked my teacher (Geshe/Gelugpa) when one is ready to practice tantra he said to practice more lamrim and lojong first. I feel like gelugpas take it slow....
Very essential dream yoga instruction is already present in lojong really. From 37 practices:
23. When encountering pleasing sense objects, though they appear beautiful like a rainbow in summertime, not to regard them as real and to abandon clinging attachment is the bodhisattvas’ practice.

24. Diverse sufferings are like the death of a child in a dream. By apprehending illusory appearances as real, one becomes weary. Therefore, when encountering disagreeable circumstances, viewing them as illusory is the bodhisattvas’ practice.
So I would not worry too much about HYT instructions until you are deemed worthy. Also in Patrul Rinpoche's Words of My Perfect Teacher he mentiones visualizing the refuge tree in your heart as you fall asleep. That also helps with lucidity and then add dream journaling and just in general developing awareness during the day and you are on your way to lucidity and then you can do practice, offer samantabhadra's clouds of offerings to all buddhas etc.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by 明安 Myoan »

When I'm worn out, I like to look at Buddhist art. I have images that inspire me in many places in my house for this reason. You get the benefits of remembering the teachings in a passive way, and feeling joy and appreciation by beholding the buddhas is a wholesome activity. It can deepen your faith.
If you have activities you enjoy, such as cooking, playing music, making art, gardening, do them as offerings to the buddhas or your guru. Cook the meal you always have to cook, but as if your guru is coming over for dinner. Vacuum the house as though Namgyalma is helping, cleaning up your afflictions. Take a walk as though, on your right, there is a mountain of jewels and offerings to the buddhas, or that you're walking to the Pure Land.
Your imagination can be a great ally in overcoming fatigue and weariness.

If you have a very simple practice you can do as well, such as reciting a mantra or a buddha's name a few times, that can also be like sitting in the sun: effortlessly enjoying the warmth, remembrance, and presence of those who love you and wish to help you.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Hazel »

Thank you everyone who responded. I appreciated each response even though for some I didn't have followup questions. :group:
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Minobu »

I used to worry about this myself.

then someone said this. more less not exact quote .

practicing like fire with extreme eagerness is good but eventually you burn out and start to belittle yourself.

thinking your not good enough , and you should be practicing more or it's all useless

Practice like flowing water and let it happen as it happens.

If you miss a day or two ...even that you know you are going to keep this up for lifetime after lifetime , so don't be too hard on yourself.

might not fit you but it helped me.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Hazel »

Minobu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:49 am I used to worry about this myself.

then someone said this. more less not exact quote .

practicing like fire with extreme eagerness is good but eventually you burn out and start to belittle yourself.

thinking your not good enough , and you should be practicing more or it's all useless

Practice like flowing water and let it happen as it happens.

If you miss a day or two ...even that you know you are going to keep this up for lifetime after lifetime , so don't be too hard on yourself.

might not fit you but it helped me.
It's good advice. What's most important is that we don't stop practicing.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Minobu »

Hazel wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:16 am
Minobu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:49 am I used to worry about this myself.

then someone said this. more less not exact quote .

practicing like fire with extreme eagerness is good but eventually you burn out and start to belittle yourself.

thinking your not good enough , and you should be practicing more or it's all useless

Practice like flowing water and let it happen as it happens.

If you miss a day or two ...even that you know you are going to keep this up for lifetime after lifetime , so don't be too hard on yourself.

might not fit you but it helped me.
It's good advice. What's most important is that we don't stop practicing.
yes thats the point .

If I might add my thoughts are:

Even if you were to stop..what you have done in this life and the past lives has brought you to this and you shall always find Buddhism in the future till you attain full blown Buddhahood.

Rest assured your one of the good gals/guys on the path.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Minobu »

You know I really believe everyone here at DW who practice all the different practices available will all eventually attain Buddhahood.

Even Malcolm :rolling: :stirthepot: :popcorn:
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by avatamsaka3 »

So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate.
Take a nap. Or more than one. And let the mind actually rest too.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by Minobu »

avatamsaka3 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:02 pm
So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate.
Take a nap. Or more than one. And let the mind actually rest too.
yeah sometimes when i have a really good session of meditation , i get hit with this massive energy drain and have to lay down...

it doesn't make sense...but hey who knows...probably all part of the purification process.
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Re: Practicing after practice when too tired to practice again

Post by SilenceMonkey »

tobes wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:50 am
Hazel wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 am So sometimes, like now, I'm completely dead tired and have next to no energy or ability to motivate. I've done as much of a daily sit as I can do without falling asleep and now I'm ready to move on to other activities. The trouble is, what I want to be doing is more practice or in someway further walking the path, but I'm simply too tired and my brain isn't cooperating.

How do you squeeze the extra dharma juices out of your day when you've done your daily sit and are too tired for service to your guru?
Think of this form of tiredness as an obscuration that needs to be (gradually, over time) dispelled. So, on that basis, doing more practices aimed at clearing obscurations rather than trying to force a formal sit. i.e. fire puja, vajrasattva, prostrations etc.

If in doing those practices, your mind clears/brightens/awakens, then you have your answer.

If not, you may be pushing too hard, and too conceptually. In this case, allow yourself the time and space to relax and recharge. 15 minutes of really highly quality Dharma practice is worth much more than 4 hours of sluggish slog.

Tonglen as you're going to sleep is also a good practice to adopt; it doesn't require as much as lucidity as dream yoga, nor any specific tantric teachings.
:good:

My feeling is that sometimes rest is the best medicine. But it’s good to see sleep as an obscuration, finding various techniques to work with it. With too many obscurations, it’s hard to create merit and then our practice would be wasted.
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