So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

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Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:40 pm
“However, if you have visited the site in present-day Rajgir, it is obvious that it is impossible for more than a few people to fit onto the summit. So, we have to understand the truth of these accounts at a different level, a level beyond the ordinary one confined by conventional notions of space and time.” — The Essence of the Heart Sutra

Correct, which means we not speaking about history, which is all about conventional notions of space and time. And this is precisely why claiming this or that Buddhist narrative is truly true, more true than someone else's narrative is complete bollocks.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Since many sutras are written as chronicles of actual events yet contain phrases to the effect of:
“Whoever repeats even a few lines of this sutra will benefit”
...I mean, that right there is an impossibility.
You can’t have, “this is a story about someone and in that story he mentions referring to this story”.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:34 pm Since many sutras are written as chronicles of actual events yet contain phrases to the effect of:
“Whoever repeats even a few lines of this sutra will benefit”
...I mean, that right there is an impossibility.
You can’t have, “this is a story about someone and in that story he mentions referring to this story”.
Why not? Narratives are just narratives. They can have many layers.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:22 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:34 pm Since many sutras are written as chronicles of actual events yet contain phrases to the effect of:
“Whoever repeats even a few lines of this sutra will benefit”
...I mean, that right there is an impossibility.
You can’t have, “this is a story about someone and in that story he mentions referring to this story”.
Why not? Narratives are just narratives. They can have many layers.
Because you’d be referring to a story about the present but that story, itself, wouldn’t exist until the future.

It would be like me saying “and then I replied to Malcom’s comment and then he responded to it” while actually referring to the words I am typing now, before you even read them (much less reply)
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:22 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:34 pm Since many sutras are written as chronicles of actual events yet contain phrases to the effect of:
“Whoever repeats even a few lines of this sutra will benefit”
...I mean, that right there is an impossibility.
You can’t have, “this is a story about someone and in that story he mentions referring to this story”.
Why not? Narratives are just narratives. They can have many layers.
Because you’d be referring to a story about the present but that story, itself, wouldn’t exist until the future.

It would be like me saying “and then I replied to Malcom’s comment and then he responded to it” while actually referring to the words I am typing now, before you even read them (much less reply)
Well, no it’s more like saying,if you tell people about this medicine, they will benefit.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Zenny
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Zenny »

Any ideas on why Siddartha Guatama never wrote or left a book,nor his fellows?
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:09 pm Any ideas on why Siddartha Guatama never wrote or left a book,nor his fellows?
Indians had not yet adopted writing.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Zenny
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Zenny »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:21 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:09 pm Any ideas on why Siddartha Guatama never wrote or left a book,nor his fellows?
Indians had not yet adopted writing.
So no books in India before Siddartha? No Vedas?
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:21 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:09 pm Any ideas on why Siddartha Guatama never wrote or left a book,nor his fellows?
Indians had not yet adopted writing.
So no books in India before Siddartha? No Vedas?
The Vedas are oral texts.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Zenny
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Zenny »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:55 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:21 pm

Indians had not yet adopted writing.
So no books in India before Siddartha? No Vedas?
The Vedas are oral texts.
So your suggesting that the vedas didn't exist as books before Siddartha?
Bottom line, did Siddartha know what writing or books were? And if he did,why no books from him,or suggestions for a written record from his fellows?
Malcolm
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Malcolm »

Zenny wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:55 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:24 pm

So no books in India before Siddartha? No Vedas?
The Vedas are oral texts.
So your suggesting that the vedas didn't exist as books before Siddartha?
Bottom line, did Siddartha know what writing or books were? And if he did,why no books from him,or suggestions for a written record from his fellows?
There is no evidence of writing in India prior to the mid-third century BCE. The Buddha’s parinirvana was around 407 BCE.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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KeithA
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by KeithA »

Zenny wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:55 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:24 pm

So no books in India before Siddartha? No Vedas?
The Vedas are oral texts.
So your suggesting that the vedas didn't exist as books before Siddartha?
Bottom line, did Siddartha know what writing or books were? And if he did,why no books from him,or suggestions for a written record from his fellows?
This is giving Zen folks a bad look! :tongue:

It’s pretty common knowledge that early on, Buddhism was an oral tradition.

🙏
Keith
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Pondera
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Pondera »

Zenny wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:55 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:24 pm

So no books in India before Siddartha? No Vedas?
The Vedas are oral texts.
So your suggesting that the vedas didn't exist as books before Siddartha?
Bottom line, did Siddartha know what writing or books were? And if he did,why no books from him,or suggestions for a written record from his fellows?
In India at least, the handing down of wisdom was an oral tradition.

Even the vast collection of the Vedas were handed down, syllable by syllable - until the whole collection was memorized.

They used mnemonic devices - tricks that helped you recall the verses - basically repetition.

And the same applies to 500 BC (or there about a) when the Buddha taught. If you look at the Tripitaka you’ll see a lot of repetition.

Written word came later.
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Minobu
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Minobu »

KeithA wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:22 am
Zenny wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:55 pm

The Vedas are oral texts.
So your suggesting that the vedas didn't exist as books before Siddartha?
Bottom line, did Siddartha know what writing or books were? And if he did,why no books from him,or suggestions for a written record from his fellows?
This is giving Zen folks a bad look! :tongue:

It’s pretty common knowledge that early on, Buddhism was an oral tradition.

🙏
Keith
Only if you ignore the Dharmakaya aspect.


And concerning what started me to create this thread, something Malcolm said.

Thee Lotus Sutra is an Entity not a story. Although for some it might only appear as a story.
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KeithA
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by KeithA »

Minobu wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:22 am
KeithA wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:22 am
Zenny wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:01 am
So your suggesting that the vedas didn't exist as books before Siddartha?
Bottom line, did Siddartha know what writing or books were? And if he did,why no books from him,or suggestions for a written record from his fellows?
This is giving Zen folks a bad look! :tongue:

It’s pretty common knowledge that early on, Buddhism was an oral tradition.

🙏
Keith
Only if you ignore the Dharmakaya aspect.


And concerning what started me to create this thread, something Malcolm said.

Thee Lotus Sutra is an Entity not a story. Although for some it might only appear as a story.
TBH, my friend, the Nichiren POV is all lost on me. But, I do try to understand. 🙏
You make, you get.

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mabw
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by mabw »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:12 am

There is no evidence of writing in India prior to the mid-third century BCE. The Buddha’s parinirvana was around 407 BCE.
Well, paraphrasing Bhikkhu Anandajoti, there seems to be evidence of writing during the Indus civilization, but then, somehow later forgotten, only to arise again later.
Crazywisdom
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:53 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:08 pm
We are meant to take them at face value that they were heard and saidnin the places they say and to whom.
Ok, you can take everything at face value if you like. That is your prerogative.

But do you really think thousands of monks can fit here?

Image
People were little back then, not a giant like you. All the magical Bodhisattvas putting on symbolic puppet shows and remembering infinite sutras of past buddhas probably fit.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Sat May 15, 2021 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Writing =/= books or literature necessarily, especially not in the modern sense.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttadinesso
Crazywisdom
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:40 pm
“However, if you have visited the site in present-day Rajgir, it is obvious that it is impossible for more than a few people to fit onto the summit. So, we have to understand the truth of these accounts at a different level, a level beyond the ordinary one confined by conventional notions of space and time.” — The Essence of the Heart Sutra

Correct, which means we not speaking about history, which is all about conventional notions of space and time. And this is precisely why claiming this or that Buddhist narrative is truly true, more true than someone else's narrative is complete bollocks.
Nice use of England slang, New Englishman. No, it means there's a magical component to Buddha. He walked in the sky, and projected from Rajgir to Lanka to give Kalachakra, and outer space Bodhisattvas as many as sands in Ganges piled up on Rajghir and heard all three wheels in their own language.

Or it means buddhism is bullshit except for some bits about meditation and some value of about liberation which may or may not relate with anything true.
Crazywisdom
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Re: So are Sutras really from the Buddha, or just fiction

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:12 am
Zenny wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:01 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:55 pm

The Vedas are oral texts.
So your suggesting that the vedas didn't exist as books before Siddartha?
Bottom line, did Siddartha know what writing or books were? And if he did,why no books from him,or suggestions for a written record from his fellows?
There is no evidence of writing in India prior to the mid-third century BCE. The Buddha’s parinirvana was around 407 BCE.
You weren't there. He had magical writing called mantras
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