Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9437
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:04 pm You seem to believe that there is an independent reality out there, in which a being x possesses the character y or quality y, independent of you perceiving it, independent of you believing or disbelieving it.
Well, that’s two different things.
I never asserted a certain order in which beings exist first, and only then have certain qualities scribed to them. That would imply the distended of atma, which I reject.

However, the assertion that ‘nothing occurs beyond which is already perceived’ is ridiculous and easily refuted.
The perceived object, for example "a being x possesses the quality y", can belong to one of the categories of imaginary nature, dependent nature, or truly established nature. Depending on the mind of the perceiver, his or her stage in the wheel of rebirth or nirvana.
While it is certainly true that a perceived object can be of any number of things, and while it is true that the only things we actually experience are our perceptions and interpretations (and not the actual object itself) this doesn’t mean that somewhere objects occur without our knowing about them. If that were the case, there would be no such thing as a surprise, or a newly discovered species or planet. There would be no Buddhist lineages because none of them would have existed prior to one’s perception of them.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9437
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:04 pm You seem to believe that there is an independent reality out there, in which a being x possesses the character y or quality y, independent of you perceiving it, independent of you believing or disbelieving it.
Well, that’s two different things.
I never asserted a certain order in which beings exist first, and only then have certain qualities ascribed to them. That would imply the existence of atma, which I reject.

However, the assertion that ‘nothing occurs beyond which is already perceived’ is ridiculous and easily refuted.
The perceived object, for example "a being x possesses the quality y", can belong to one of the categories of imaginary nature, dependent nature, or truly established nature. Depending on the mind of the perceiver, his or her stage in the wheel of rebirth or nirvana.
While it is certainly true that a perceived object can be of any number of things, and while it is true that the only things we actually experience are our perceptions and interpretations (and not the actual object itself) this doesn’t mean that somewhere objects occur without our knowing about them. If that were the case, there would be no such thing as a surprise, or a newly discovered species or planet. There would be no Buddhist lineages because none of them would have existed prior to one’s own perception of them.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by LastLegend »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:04 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:29 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:15 pm

You are being prejudiced against non-mammals, in the Jatakas the Buddha-to-be is born several times as a serpent or a naga. The theme here seems to be that serpents or nagas can keep precepts and observe the Uposatha days. (Similarly in other Jataka stories with some other animals, like the hare and jackal.)

32. “And while he was the royal nága (serpent) Bhúridatta, when he had undertaken the Uposatha precepts and was lying on the top of a termite-mound, though he was [caught and] sprinkled with medicinal charms resembling the fire that ushers in the end of an aeon, and was put into a box and treated as a plaything throughout the whole of Jambudìpa, yet he had no trace of hate for that brahman, according as it is said: ‘While being put into the coffer/ And being crushed down with his hand/ I had no hate for Álambána/ Lest I should break my precept vow’

33. “And when he was the royal nága Campeyya he let no hate spring up in his mind while he was being cruelly treated by a snake charmer, according as itis said: “While I was living in the Law/ Observing the Uposatha/A snake charmer took me away/ To play with at the royal gate./Whatever hue he might conceive,/ Blue and yellow, and red as well,/ So in accordance with his thought/ I would become what he had wished;/I would turn dry land into water,/ And water into land likewise./ Now, had I given way to wrath/ I could have seared him into ash,/ Had I relaxed mind-mastery/ I should have let my virtue lapse;/ And one who lets his virtue lapse/ Cannot attain the highest goal”.

34. “And when he was the royal nága Sankhapála, while he was being carried along on a carrying pole by the sixteen village boys after they had wounded him in eight places with sharp spears and inserted thorn creepers into thewounds’ orifices, and while, after threading a strong rope through his nose,they were causing him great agony by dragging him along bumping his body on the surface of the ground, though he was capable of turning those village boys to cinders with a mere glance, yet he did not even show the least trace ofhate on opening his eyes, according as it is said: ‘On the fourteenth and the fifteenth too,/Álára, I regularly kept the Holy Day,/ Until there came those sixteen village boys/ Bearing a rope and a stout spear as well./The hunters cleft my nose, and through the slit/ They passed a rope and dragged me off like that./ But though I felt such poignant agony,/ I let no hate disturb my Holy Day” (J-a V 172).

Awakening does not exist substantially in any being anywhere.
So you must only cease your notions of seeing other beings as unawakened.
There is no self or a being that possesses "awakening" after "having awakened" to the truth or reality.
Most animals are not buddhas.
Most animals cannot intentionally engage in the study and practice of Dharma as we know it.
Also, in your closing statement, the second sentence contradicts the first sentence.
You seem to believe that there is an independent reality out there, in which a being x possesses the character y or quality y, independent of you perceiving it, independent of you believing or disbelieving it.
That is not the case, as far as I have understood anything of the teaching of Dharma.

The perceived object, for example "a being x possesses the quality y", can belong to one of the categories of imaginary nature, dependent nature, or truly established nature. Depending on the mind of the perceiver, his or her stage in the wheel of rebirth or nirvana.
It’s because we are fooled by the whole appearance of awareness as ‘me,’ though it’s not explicitly stated ‘that’s me.’ The reason is there is a construct of that appearance and it’s because of the ability to differentiate...logically if that doesn’t differentiate, there is no appearance of me followed...differentiate means generating a division between you and me, and there is appearance of ‘me’ followed.

In everyday life we have to differentiate between a red light and green. It’s not like being oblivious not knowing anything is Dharma.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

Although I do not wish to seem to be a votary of the external world not existing, it is clear that in certain sutras, the external world is apprehended as consciousness interacts with nama and rupa, which is the condition for the six sense bases.

This allows for the possibility that consciousness could be objectless.

When consciousness is objectless, it can then experience the fourth element: nirvana.

This is set out in the Maha-nidana Sutra. Nevertheless, the buddha's intention was not to prove or disprove the existence of the external world. His intention was to show the chain of nidana and the mechanism of dependent origination. This placed consciousness on one side, and nama and rupa on the other side; this seems to shift, however. In other writings, consciousness and nama are on one side and rupa on the other. Definitions also very of nama and rupa, further confusing the issue.

For the purpose of karma and rebirth, if rupa does not contact nama and consciousness, does a thing exist? Technically, no.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

Supramundane wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:44 am Although I do not wish to seem to be a votary of the external world not existing, it is clear that in certain sutras, the external world is apprehended as consciousness interacts with nama and rupa, which is the condition for the six sense bases.

This allows for the possibility that consciousness could be objectless.

When consciousness is objectless, it can then experience the fourth element: nirvana.

This is set out in the Maha-nidana Sutra. Nevertheless, the buddha's intention was not to prove or disprove the existence of the external world. His intention was to show the chain of nidana and the mechanism of dependent origination. This placed consciousness on one side, and nama and rupa on the other side; this seems to shift, however. In other writings, consciousness and nama are on one side and rupa on the other. Definitions also very of nama and rupa, further confusing the issue.

For the purpose of karma and rebirth, if rupa does not contact nama and consciousness, does a thing exist? Technically, no.
Rupa is external world, then it is projected a name, i.e. nama. Rupa signifies both subject and object as material entities.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

And what, bhikus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention.
This is called name. And the 4 great elements and the material form derived from the 4 great
elements. This is called form. Thus, this is name and this is form—this is called name-and-form.
(S 12.2,12/2:3), SD 5.15


The relationship between consciousness and name-and-form in the Maha nidana sutra is that consciousness is a condition from which arises name-and-
form, which in turn allows for the sense-bases.

This arrangement is not consistent, as i mentioned, as it varies in different sutras.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9437
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Supramundane wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:44 am When consciousness is objectless, it can then experience the fourth element: nirvana.
Perhaps. In the Surangama Sutra, the Buddha points out that if one’s eyes are covered so that one cannot see, the visual consciousness is still there. One is still aware that one cannot see. The inference is that this aspect of awareness-without-object is bodhi mind.

For the purpose of karma and rebirth, if rupa does not contact nama and consciousness, does a thing exist? Technically, no.
I am not clear about how you arrive at this conclusion.
Are you saying that for the purposes of karma and rebirth a thing which may exist somewhere (I.e., an undiscovered species of fish) has no relative function, or that simply because it is beyond one’s range of perception, that it cannot exist at all?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

The former i think.

Please note that i am simply explaining the views expressed in mahana-nidana sutra because i find them interesting. I have not yet formed a final opinion.

Apparently, harvey contends that this view of the chain of DO in mahanidana is different in later sutras, and so we are left wondering which is accurate.

In another sutra, it is consciousness and nama that latch onto rupa...

Consciousness existing before birth is the end result.
It also contradicts the theravada doctrine of 'cessation'. Nirvana here is not attained by cessation of consciousness but by having it turn away from nama and rupa and allowing it to contact the fourth element, nirvana.
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

Perhaps. In the Surangama Sutra, the Buddha points out that if one’s eyes are covered so that one cannot see, the visual consciousness is still there. One is still aware that one cannot see. The inference is that this aspect of awareness-without-object is bodhi mind.

Yes, there is an American theravada monk, Ajahn Sumedho, who insists quite a bit on 'awareness without object' as being the 'deathless door'. I believe that in the mahanidana sutra, there is an inference that there is a selfless consciousness that exists before birth and which gives rise to rebirth. It is interesting to consider. I am curious if this same concept can be found in other sutras.
illarraza
Posts: 1257
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by illarraza »

RonBucker wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:24 am A good teacher can lead any person to enlightenment, or are there people whom he cannot help?
Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin are such good teachers. They are able to lead the multitude to Supreme and Perfect Enlightenment, even people of incorrigeable disbelief, murderers like Angulimala, Arhats and Pratyekkabuddhas (people of the Two Vehicles), and even Devedatta. This is my belief.

Mark
Passing By
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:39 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:47 pm Actually, I saw something recently in a text that implied that Asuras have the possibility to attain Buddhahood as well. Unlikely that many would, I’d imagine, but the implication of the possibility was there. Now if I could just remember where I’d read it.... It was only like a month or so ago.

Also, aren’t there stories in Sutras and so on about Devas having the possibility to attain Buddhahood too?
The Suhṛllekha states:
Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings,
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom.
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.
Asuras here are included among the devas.
You'd think, going by the number of times Indra and other major non-Buddhist deities have appeared in the tantras as retinues of the featured mandala or Buddha, that they'd be the ones who practise dharma the most though.

Not to mention most of the retinue of mandala yidams aren't human anyway


Or do those not count as devas?
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9437
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Passing By wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:30 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:39 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:47 pm Actually, I saw something recently in a text that implied that Asuras have the possibility to attain Buddhahood as well. Unlikely that many would, I’d imagine, but the implication of the possibility was there. Now if I could just remember where I’d read it.... It was only like a month or so ago.

Also, aren’t there stories in Sutras and so on about Devas having the possibility to attain Buddhahood too?
The Suhṛllekha states:
Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings,
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom.
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.
Asuras here are included among the devas.
You'd think, going by the number of times Indra and other major non-Buddhist deities have appeared in the tantras as retinues of the featured mandala or Buddha, that they'd be the ones who practise dharma the most though.

Not to mention most of the retinue of mandala yidams aren't human anyway


Or do those not count as devas?
As long as beings desire to be free from suffering (dukkha) this indicates that they have within them the innate potential for realization. Even the antagonistic attitude (jealousy, combativeness, whatever you want to call it) of asuras is, ultimately, motivated by that desire for happiness, the desire to be free from suffering, or free from the very thing that binds them to that state of asura (asuraness? Asuranity? :thinking:)

This doesn’t mean that they currently have the opportunity to practice or attain realization. But the potential is there, and at some point, when they are reborn as humans, they will have that opportunity.

What is it that indicates they have that potential?
It is because their current experience manifests as, or results In the experience of suffering.

In other words, to use an analogy, suppose you step on a tiny piece of glass and it gets stuck in your foot. That object causes you pain. The ‘innate potential’ of your foot is to be free from pain. That is your foot’s original nature. So, the experience of glass in your foot is pain. If the sensation of stepping on glass was that it felt like a foot massage, or felt like your feet were soaking in warm water, then that would be a pleasant sensation, a pleasant experience, one that is free from suffering. Then, we could say that indicates the true nature of your foot is to have glass stuck in it. But of course, this is not the case.

Likewise, if asuras attained satisfaction rather than suffering from fighting, or if pretas (hungry ghosts) experienced hunger and thirst as satisfaction, then there would be no indication that their true nature is anything other than hunger and thirst. We wouldn’t say that asuras ‘experience the suffering of endless fighting’.

The point is that our suffering results from not experiencing our true nature. Hence, it is precisely because we experience samsara as dukkha, as unsatisfactory, that this is how we know it is not our true nature. Since the opposite of the experience of dukkha and ignorance is the experience of perfect satisfaction and awakening, and the experience of perfect satisfaction (the cessation of all cravings) and wisdom is buddhahood, then this indicates that the original state of beings is buddhahood.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Budai »

Why isn’t everyone capable of Satori? My question isn’t why everyone isn’t coming to it right now, though you may ask that as well, that is a bit of a separate question that gets confused with the former.

Om Mani Padme Hum. :bow:
Last edited by Budai on Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:30 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:39 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:47 pm Actually, I saw something recently in a text that implied that Asuras have the possibility to attain Buddhahood as well. Unlikely that many would, I’d imagine, but the implication of the possibility was there. Now if I could just remember where I’d read it.... It was only like a month or so ago.

Also, aren’t there stories in Sutras and so on about Devas having the possibility to attain Buddhahood too?
The Suhṛllekha states:
Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings,
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom.
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.
Asuras here are included among the devas.
You'd think, going by the number of times Indra and other major non-Buddhist deities have appeared in the tantras as retinues of the featured mandala or Buddha, that they'd be the ones who practise dharma the most though.

Not to mention most of the retinue of mandala yidams aren't human anyway


Or do those not count as devas?
Figures in a mandala are symbols, not sentient beings.
Varis
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Varis »

There are some sentient beings who cannot become enlightened, being incapable of feeling love and compassion for other sentient beings they can never be motivated to practice the dharma. I forget what the sanskrit name for them is, but it's been discussed on the forum before.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

Varis wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:17 am There are some sentient beings who cannot become enlightened, being incapable of feeling love and compassion for other sentient beings they can never be motivated to practice the dharma. I forget what the sanskrit name for them is, but it's been discussed on the forum before.
Trolls?
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

"Subhuti, do not say that the Buddha has the idea, 'I will lead all sentient beings
to Nirvana.' Do not think that way, Subhuti. Why? In truth there is not one single
being for the Buddha to lead to Enlightenment. If the Buddha were to think
there was, he would be caught in the idea of a self, a person, a living being, or
a universal self. Subhuti, what the Buddha calls a self essentially has no self in the
way that ordinary persons think there is a self. Subhuti, the Buddha does not
regard anyone as an ordinary person. That is why he can speak of them as
ordinary persons."
--- Diamond Sutra
Varis
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Varis »

Supramundane wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:56 am
Trolls?
Hah, close.
I was able to find it, they're called icchantikas. Basically sentient beings who through their unwholesome actions are so far gone they cannot achieve Buddhahood.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
User avatar
Supramundane
Posts: 621
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:38 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Supramundane »

Sorry :)
Couldn't resist hehe
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Can all people in our world come to enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

Lankavatara sutra ( D.T. Suzuki transl.)
XXII
Again, Mahamati, how is it that the Icchantika never awaken the desire for emancipation? Because they have abandoned all the stock of merit, and because they cherish certain vows for all beings since beginningless time. What is meant by abandoning all the stock of merit? It refers to [those Buddhists] who have abandoned the Bodhisattva collection [of the canonical texts], making the false accusation that they are not in conformity with the sutras, the codes of morality, and the emancipation. By this they have forsaken all the stock of merit and will not enter into Nirvana. Secondly again, Mahamati, there are Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas who, on account of their original vows made for all beings, saying, "So long as they do not attain Nirvana, I will not attain it myself," keep themselves away from Nirvana. This, Mahamati, is the reason of their not entering into Nirvana, and because of this they go on the way of the Icchantika. Those who are destitute of the Buddha-nature. Again, Mahamati said; Who, Blessed One, would never enter Nirvana? The Blessed One replied: Knowing that all things are in Nirvana itself from the very beginning, the Bodhisattva-Icchantika would never enter Nirvana. But those Icchantikas who have forsaken all the stock of merit [finally] do. Those Icchantikas, Mahamati, who have forsaken all the stock of merit might some day be influenced by the power of the Tathagatas and be induced at any moment to foster the stock of merit. Why? Because, Mahamati, no beings are left aside by the Tathagatas. For this reason, Mahamati, it is the Bodhisattva-Icchantika who never enters into Nirvana.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”