Field

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avatamsaka3
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Field

Post by avatamsaka3 »

I just heard about the idea that engaging in meditation changes the field of energy around the meditator. We could apply the concept of the morphic field to this notion. It follows, if this is true, that one can meditate not just for oneself, but for others too. We act as a "field purifier", according to this view. This could also explain why people might prefer to meditate in groups: the field has been adjusted through the practice of others. But this doesn't explain why I prefer meditating alone.

What are your reactions to this? It seems to me, in order to really be a purifier, one would have to be acting through a very positive sort of motivation.
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Hazel
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Re: Field

Post by Hazel »

What do you mean by energy?
avatamsaka3
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Re: Field

Post by avatamsaka3 »

One way of putting it: Something that acts as a field and is non-obstructive, but can change matter.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Field

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Calling it a "field of energy" suggests that is can be compared to magnetic, electrical or gravitational fields and makes it sound like science. It isn't science, though, since science can't measure it and (furthermore) denies the existence of anything it can't measure.

I still do think something is going on and "field of energy" is as good as any other name for it.

:namaste:
Kim
avatamsaka3
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Re: Field

Post by avatamsaka3 »

It isn't science, though, since science can't measure it
Assumption.
cjdevries
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Re: Field

Post by cjdevries »

Some qigong masters can see the energy field through their third eye.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Field

Post by Kim O'Hara »

cjdevries wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:46 am Some qigong masters can see the energy field through their third eye.
Perhaps they can, but science won't believe them because there is no *objective* measurement.

avatamsaka3 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:01 am
It isn't science, though, since science can't measure it
Assumption.
Show me where science has measured it, then.
Or show me where science acknowledges the truth of a statement which can't be objectively verified.

:namaste:
Kim
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Field

Post by FiveSkandhas »

This concept is not (to my knowledge) part of traditional Buddhist doctrine, nor is it (as yet) part of science. And although I do not disparage Qigong, it's not really part of Buddhism.

Thus I am skeptical about this idea, which sounds suspiciously "new age," although I do not reject it outright as a possibility.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Field

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:03 am
cjdevries wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:46 am Some qigong masters can see the energy field through their third eye.
Perhaps they can, but science won't believe them because there is no *objective* measurement.

avatamsaka3 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:01 am
It isn't science, though, since science can't measure it
Assumption.
Show me where science has measured it, then.
Or show me where science acknowledges the truth of a statement which can't be objectively verified.

:namaste:
Kim
You know... why all this talk about science? Who cares what "science" says is possible or not. We're spiritual practitioners, not scientists. No reason scientific ideology should limit our view of what can be attained in spiritual practice. If we continue to harbor these ideas, we might be limiting ourselves from reaching for the stars. Take masters of Dharma as our model, not "scientists." On whose authority do they rule the Dharma?
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Field

Post by Kim O'Hara »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:46 am ...
You know... why all this talk about science? Who cares what "science" says is possible or not. We're spiritual practitioners, not scientists. No reason scientific ideology should limit our view of what can be attained in spiritual practice. If we continue to harbor these ideas, we might be limiting ourselves from reaching for the stars. Take masters of Dharma as our model, not "scientists." On whose authority do they rule the Dharma?
They don't, of course, and I never said that they did. In fact ...
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:43 pm I still do think something is going on and "field of energy" is as good as any other name for it.

:namaste:
Kim
But I believe we need to be aware of where we're parting company with what is scientifically verifiable because what is scientifically verifiable is roughly equal to what most people* in our community are willing to accept as "real" and "true".

:namaste:
Kim

* except Qanon, etc. :rolleye:
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Field

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:09 am
But I believe we need to be aware of where we're parting company with what is scientifically verifiable because what is scientifically verifiable is roughly equal to what most people* in our community are willing to accept as "real" and "true".

:namaste:
Kim
It's true, good to know where our talk parts ways with science... But I think that if we keep touching upon the "s" word in discussion of these things, our discussion will always be catering to science and their paradigm at some level. Better not to bring it up.

The habit of comparing spiritual experience with scientific discoveries and a scientific worldview is no better than mixing Dharma with politics. One example being the thought "Oh, we can't say these things... they're not verified by science." (Not P.C.) It's a case of mixing up samsara with Dharma practice.

Why not let Dharma be pure?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Field

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:46 am You know... why all this talk about science? Who cares what "science" says is possible or not. We're spiritual practitioners, not scientists. No reason scientific ideology should limit our view of what can be attained in spiritual practice. If we continue to harbor these ideas, we might be limiting ourselves from reaching for the stars. Take masters of Dharma as our model, not "scientists." On whose authority do they rule the Dharma?
Okay. You start...
...by defining what exactly “field of energy” means.
:popcorn:
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Field

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:10 pm Okay. You start...
...by defining what exactly “field of energy” means.
:popcorn:
Lol. It's just a metaphor to talk about subjective experience. These kind of energetic experiences are personal and subjective, and they also differ from tradition to tradition. Putting into words is tricky, and words have to be creatively invented to talk about these things.

Definitions aren't so good in this area... Especially the stilted kind of definitions you find in buddhist tradition. Spiritual experience is something organic. Start to define it and put it in boxes, you might turn into a robot.

I think its okay to leave some things vague and undefined. Like beauty, inspiration, blessing... Everyone has their own experience, and that's fine. I'm not sure we need to standardize it.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Field

Post by Kim O'Hara »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:44 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:10 pm Okay. You start...
...by defining what exactly “field of energy” means.
:popcorn:
...
Definitions aren't so good in this area... Especially the stilted kind of definitions you find in buddhist tradition. Spiritual experience is something organic. Start to define it and put it in boxes, you might turn into a robot.

I think its okay to leave some things vague and undefined. Like beauty, inspiration, blessing... Everyone has their own experience, and that's fine. I'm not sure we need to standardize it.
Okay, that's cool. :thumbsup:
But it does mean that we can't talk about those things.

:thinking:
Kim
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Field

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:32 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:44 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:10 pm Okay. You start...
...by defining what exactly “field of energy” means.
:popcorn:
...
Definitions aren't so good in this area... Especially the stilted kind of definitions you find in buddhist tradition. Spiritual experience is something organic. Start to define it and put it in boxes, you might turn into a robot.

I think its okay to leave some things vague and undefined. Like beauty, inspiration, blessing... Everyone has their own experience, and that's fine. I'm not sure we need to standardize it.
Okay, that's cool. :thumbsup:
But it does mean that we can't talk about those things.

:thinking:
Kim
Not really... I'm just saying we don't need dictionary definitions for everything. Personally, I think it's a bad habit imposed by scholars: If it doesn't fit into the narrowly defined field of things in the buddhist encyclopedia, it's not buddhist. Or worse, it doesn't exist. I think this sort of academic hegemony is very limiting.

When people talk about these things, usually they're looking for a conversation about personal experience... not some abstract theories. Of course you can talk about it. You just don't engage in Tibetan debate over these things.
Pero
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Re: Field

Post by Pero »

This "notion" exists in Zen and Daoism. IMO it exists in Tibetan Buddhism also but is not really explained.
In any case I don't think this means one could just practice instead of someone else.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Field

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

So, define what “energy field” means in this context.
Is it like a fart?
Because a lot of meditators in a room doing that is...
In Other words, if people don’t know what you are talking about, how can there be a meaningful discussion?
And if the discussion isn’t meaningful, then why...
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
cjdevries
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Re: Field

Post by cjdevries »

Here is a definition of the Wei Qi field:

By Jane Barthelemy.

Wei Qi is an invisible energy, an electro magnetic field referred to in Chinese medicine. Wei Qi is critically important especially in current times, as we are bombarded by energies and electro-magnetic radiation all around us. They come from cell phones, Wifi, radio, power lines, microwaves, Bluetooth devices, computers, smart meters, the air we breathe, and even other people’s thoughts which create a field of positive or negative energy. If you are highly sensitive, or if you live in a populated urban area, these energies can penetrate your body and weaken it. Many people are lacking in Wei Qi, and find that EMF’s are nearly intolerable. The good news is, you can strengthen your Wei Qi with Qigong.

How Does Wei Qi Work?
The Wei Qi is a protective energy field which emanates from the body, guarding it from external pathogens, emotional, climatic, and electro-magnetic invasion. When it is healthy, your Wei Qi selectively allows specific energies into your field. This protective Wei Qi barrier is somewhat similar to the Western concept of the Aura, however the Daoist Wei Qi is very different in emphasis, cultivation, and how it is used.

Wei Qi stems from the deep inner Qi, the Meridians, Heart and Dantien. When you learn to cultivate and balance both extremes Fire (Heart) and Water (Kidney), unifying the Yin Yang Axis in your body, then you can have a truly strong and healthy protection. Wei Qi is part of the Lung Meridian system, which regulates its circulation to the skin, sending fluids to the skin and muscles. Wei Qi helps to adjust the opening and closing of pores, so it regulates sweating, perspiration, and body temperature. During the day, Wei Qi exists on the body exterior, flowing in the surface areas near the skin. During sleep, it goes into the body interior and circulates in the Yin organs. That is the reason it is important to stay warm while sleeping, and one is more apt to catch cold at night rather than in the day, because the Wei Qi has withdrawn to the interior at night. For example, sleeping under an open window at night, allows cold wind and pathogenic energies to enter, as the body is less well protected. Deficient Wei Qi can lead to spontaneous sweating anytime, which can cause a loss of Qi and valuable fluids through the pores.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche
Pero
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Re: Field

Post by Pero »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:44 pm So, define what “energy field” means in this context.
Is it like a fart?
:roll:

Anyway, there are different kinds of fields, Wei Qi field is one of them but I don't believe it has any relation to meditative practice (at least in the OP's sense) since as far as I understand it's there to prevent pathogens from entering the body as described in cjdevries's post. Funnily I just attended a Daoist Neigong course this weekend where there was quite a bit of discussion of some of the fields in the body and it is a complex subject, or at least seems so to me, some of it was a bit beyond me. In any case it was not about meditation or influencing others with it. Fields here are something kind of magnetic in quality.

As for Zen - this is from Meido Moore's The Rinzai Zen Way:
The essential point here is that simply being in the presence— the ba,* or “field”— of a deeply realized person can arrange our conditions in such a manner that we enter samadhi or recognize our nature. When discussing this type of situation, we may speak about the ability of one person to affect another through kiai (energetic power) or joriki* (samadhi power), much as a strongly vibrating guitar string causes sympathetic vibration in an adjacent string.
...
In other words, the teacher must manifest a unified state of awakened samadhi and— if possessed of sufficient power— by so doing will be able to
cause students to experience the same to some degree as each is passed.

Moore, Meido. The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice (p. 148 - 149). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.


I think as students we don't have to worry too much about this for a while though. Should first take care of ourselves.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Malcolm
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Re: Field

Post by Malcolm »

Hey, guys, this whole thread is off topic.

There is no Mahāyāna sūtra that takes about energy fields or anything like it.
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