Interfaith Dialogue

[Dexing]

If Jesus was a Bodhisattva, I quit...

[Sönam]

I was not expecting this threat to turn that way ... any way all that could only be pure speculation.
If theoriticaly a bodhisattva can incarnate in any sort of being, there is good reasons to think that it is not the case for Jesus.
Also Jesus could have been "a very, very nice guy", it does not matter for us because we are on a buddhist site.
Maybe Jesus had the compassionate equipement, but to be a bodhisattva you also need to have the wisdom component, and not a general kind of wisdom, but the wisdom of the eradication of suffering ... which was manifestely not the case for Jesus.

But the real question is ... Was he a dzogchenpa ?


Sönam

[DGA]

OK, thoughts on this?

The Teachings of Yogi Chen on Performing the Ritual of Fire Sacrifice to Jesus

http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw40/bk122.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw40/bk123.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw40/bk124.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously, any takers?

[Enochian]

Jesus did not teach Dependent Origination, the central teaching which ties every level of Buddhism from Theravada to Dzogchen.

Thus he does not have any connection to Buddhism.

Lastly, I don't recall any truly omniscient / divine master such as Jigme Lingpa mentioning Jesus.

[brendan]

This world would be a much better place if there was no christianity or any form of monotheism.

Jesus was not a Bodhisattva as he didnt have "Right View".

Monotheists are unable to cognize Dependent Origination, and hence continually create the causes of suffering. They (monotheists) are unable to cognize that they are also part of the causes and conditions that cause suffering.

The "I" of a monotheists is extremly dangerous, not to mention the belief (monotheism) that it was made.

[Jangchup Donden]

If Jesus was a Bodhisattva, why did he not once teach about Bodhichitta, the desire to free all sentient beings from suffering?
Likewise, if he was a high level Bodhisattva with any bit of precognition, I think the results of Christianity would have turned much better...
Just because someone may be a mystic and/or a good person doesn't mean they are a Buddhist or a Bodhisattva.

“You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!" and there is another great quote, but I don't remember its exact form. It's something like this: There is no greater love than do give your life for your brother (of course, here the "brother" could be anyone).

You're reaching. Many many religions teach the basics of being a good person. That doesn't mean it's Bodhichitta or Buddhism.

Also, even today, at all (I mean all) the orthodox monastery, a big part of the nights prayers are prayer for all the human beings, for all the people who suffer, for others. There was even one Christian saint who prayed 30 years in a cave for the salvation from suffering of all the human beings from hell. If this is not boddhichitta, then I really don't know what it is.. Even the stages of the path are very clear: first, "escape" from the world, in the mountains, etc, (because we are not talking about tantra) and practice continuosly, then, after the result is obtained (continuous revelation of the Uncreated Light), returning in to the world, to help others.

All human beings, while certainly noble, is still a far cry from all sentient beings. Nor does it come close to the Bodhisattva vow to remain in samsara until every last being is freed from all suffering and reaches Buddhahood.

And about the precognition things. Even in Buddhism there are strange and even cruel facts. Could we blame Buddha for this? Jesus message was extremely clear: "Love your enemies". He even accepted to be killed by his enemies, when (theoretically) he could escape easily. Why? Becouse his message was a different one. Even the most retarded human being could understand easily that, this mean, "don't kill him when you want his land".. What should have sad: "Love your enemy, and by the way.... try to don't kill him when you want his land, his wife, his gold"?

Also, I talked strictly about Orthodox Christianity, not about Catholicism. I don't know to much about Catholicism. .Catholicism for example, doesn't have Hesychasm tradition and practice (there are some similar methods but are very far away). Orthodoxy is considered "the old church", the "traditional one".

"The Orthodox Church, commonly referred to as the Eastern Orthodox Church, is the dominant Christian denomination in Greece, Romania,Serbia, and the majority of Slavic countries, including Russia. It considers itself to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and his Apostles almost 2,000 years ago. Orthodoxy is the second largest Christian communion in the world, with an estimated 300 million adherents. The Orthodox Church is composed of several self-governing ecclesial bodies, each geographically and nationally distinct but theologically unified. Each self-governing (or autocephalous) body, often but not always encompassing a nation, is shepherded by a synod of bishops whose duty, among other things, is to preserve and teach the Apostolic and patristic traditions and related church practices".

There has never been any church-wide crusade-like event in the Orthodox Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church and it's followers were victims of the Crusades, especially in a time of history just after the Great Schism that happened in 1054, which led to the separation of Christianity in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. All the crusades happened after the Schism.


I don't want to take the role of "defender" of Christianity, etc. I've just seen that sometime even basic historical facts are not known about Christianity on Buddhist forums.

I've been the first to hold the torch to defend Christianity on these boards. There's still a lot of good in it, although sadly the bad seems to be increasing... or at least yelling louder. That doesn't mean it is Buddhism, nor should it be confused with Buddhism. Just because a religion teaches you to not be an asshole (which most do), doesn't mean it's Buddhism. Buddhism goes far beyond that.

[spanda]

Of course. Buddhism is much better. Christianity is a path which produce only misery in the world. Jesus probably was just a very nice guy. We should celebrate that we are in the safe boat, and to cultivate our boddhicita, which obviously is much wider and better than their boddhicita.

[ronnewmexico]

I'm sorry no.

Christianity teaches god sent his only begotton son Jesus to save the world with his dying on the cross(there exist variants to this interpretation but that is main stream interpretation)......he sent him once.

Bodhisattavas are willing to render being human, living and dying, when they could easily escape it, instead forever doing this thing.
Not once as christ did...over and over and over and over and over and on and on.

That is bodhisattva not being kind giving your life once dying on a cross or whatever that is bodhisttava...dying on a cross if that is what it takes a billion times till samsara is emptied.

So no you are with wrong conception on this thing.

and that reference is to you spanda your last comment, not justsit

Nevertheless 8th level. As others mention wisdom is required with compassion, compassion not only. Staying quite a while teaching say 50 years or so we can reasonably assume considering the task at hand the times as they were and the peoples, would be preferable.
This was not spiritually speaking relatively advanced 2500 BCE India but in a nation under the domination of a regime that made hitlers seems complacent.
They would literally kill you if they felt they wanted to....no other reason. Such conditions would require we can assume a longer teaching cycle than three years. 3 years is laughable considering the circumstance. No wisdom, great compassion no wisdom.

There were killers of great cause in the buddhas time. But also were thousands upon thousands of spiritual seekers of any and every sort and type ripe for the teachings, living in forests and such. And the example of the buddha was to teach not three years but a liftime once enlightened. Why choose a early death even with the highest of teachings given by dying. The buddha gave the highest of teachings with his dying and stated so upon his departure,after 80 some odd years, many many spent teaching, not just three. Three is laughable.

[Jangchup Donden]

Of course. Buddhism is much better. Christianity is a path which produce only misery in the world. Jesus probably was just a very nice guy. We should celebrate that we are in the safe boat, and to cultivate our boddhicita, which obviously is much wider and better than their boddhicita.

I just don't see the point in calling an apple an orange. Christianity has a lot of good teachings which are definitely sufficient to get its followers into a heavenly realm. But that's as high as it goes.

The fact of the matter is you find no teachings of the four noble truths, dependent origination, or karma in Christianity. You don't find teachings on Bodhichitta or emptiness.

If they (or practitioners of ANY religion, even Buddhism) don't have the intention to benefit to all sentient beings, then they don't have Bodhichitta, plain and simple. Thats what the definition of Bodhichitta is -- it's something specific, not just a fuzzy 'oh i wanna help people' thing. It's not a matter of this is better than that; it's just a statement of fact. Saying someone is wearing a sweater when they only have a tee-shirt on won't make them any warmer.

Why do you need to paint Jesus as a Bodhisattva?

[PadmaVonSamba]

1.Christ died nailed to a cross.
2. Crosses are made of wood.
3. Wood comes from trees.
4. Buddha sat under a tree.
5. Buddha was enlightened.
6. Therefore, Christ was a Buddha.

That's all the logic I need to prove that Jesus was a bodhisattva.
Now excuse me, I am going to go drink a hippopotamus.

[Jangchup Donden]

Now excuse me, I am going to go drink a hippopotamus.

Careful, they bite!

[brendan]

1.Christ died nailed to a cross.
2. Crosses are made of wood.
3. Wood comes from trees.
4. Buddha sat under a tree.
5. Buddha was enlightened.
6. Therefore, Christ was a Buddha.

That's all the logic I need to prove that Jesus was a bodhisattva.
Now excuse me, I am going to go drink a hippopotamus.

How to you know he was nailed to the cross? The other two males who were with him that day had there hands and feet tied with rope. Jesus was a carpenter so maybe he lied, or maybe his capters made him say he was nailed to hurt his ego.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I guess 'nailed' could be taken to mean a number of things.
I should have said, "stapled".

[ground]

Dealing with a french forum, I once more encounter the discussion on Jésus being a bodhisattva. Some "stable" vajra friends, some I know personnaly, pretend that His Holiness has once (Paris 2003) said that Jesus was a bodhisattva, which is for me a total nonsense. Then other members (vajra practionners) generally quite knowledgeable concerning the dharma did pretend the same, pretending that he did adapt his teaching to the peoples in Palestin in that time. Of course I did'nt agree at all, and as too many of them did pretend so, I tell them that I will ask for confirmation to a Rinpoche (Gelug) I'm in contact with. Surprisingly he says the same, that he believes that Jesus was a 8th bhumi bodhisattva, that his "real" teaching was not know, and so on.
Honestly I do not know what to say ... I need some help on that point that I could not accept. I'm lost (like a wall following on me) ?

Sönam (sorry for bad english)

It is just political stuff to make christians happy ...

Why should christians become happy when buddhists tell them that Jesus was a bodhisatva?

I guess what you mean is "it is just attracting wanna-be-buddhists that cannot let go of christianity."


Kind regards

[brendan]

How many tombstones are there with jesus stupid symbol on them?

His cult has caused so much misery in this world and will continue to, untill his followers can cognize Dependent Origination and hence understand that they and there god also cause suffering.

Untill they do the problems off this world will always be percieved by monotheists to be from causes and conditions from which they are _not_ a part of.

[ronnewmexico]

On a side note but still on point.....can anyone think of a worse place to produce that teaching. A teaching that guarantees you eternal life and thusly no fear of death and as consequence when witnessed by the romans throwing as they were inclined to do anyone they did not like, to the lions in theater for sport....well golly gee no fear of death...suppose we, our soldiers.... could use a bit of that?


And then of course becoming eventually the holy roman empire to whit with warriors of papal dispensation able to fight to the death and kill woman children even eat the bodies of their enemies as they were made men... with papal dispensation.

Certainly I don't deny other forms of christianity that were benign or even occasionally helpful....but the larger majority...this thing seems designed to produce greatest corruption.
Give this teaching to the most heinous of barbarians that they may use.....to create a bigger empire of more lasting duration.

I think about these type things and the more I agree with the quote firstly quoted on page one...this seems a good work by a good man but not well thought as by result of not well thinking a agent almost seemingly used by demons to corrupt and harm humans.

I cannot think of a worse place to put these teachings but in a subsidiary nation under roman control back in the day.
It was virtually guaranteed to be corrupted and early on. Couple that with three years of teaching and you virtually assure corruption.

[spanda]

"Christianity teaches god sent his only begotton son Jesus to save the world with his dying on the cross"
There is a quote from Jesus, where he sad: "You are all sons of Good" and "Miracle greater then me you will do"!

"I just don't see the point in calling an apple an orange. Christianity has a lot of good teachings which are definitely sufficient to get its followers into a heavenly realm. But that's as high as it goes."

Of course, you know this for a fact, from your one experience, right?

I presented some very interesting facts about the real mystical Christianity and everybody ignored that aspects. The contemplative I talked (the real practitioner of orthodox Christianity), they don't believe stupidity like: "Jesus saved me already", no, they practice contemplation, in all the 3 states. When I first studied this things I was amassed to find out experiences pretty similar with some of Buddhist experiences: resorption of all the energy in the heart, a "special warm and bliss", external phenomenon identical with external tummo manifestation, the great compassion, the emptiness of the mind, the "revelation" of "Uncreated Light" (an experience which has nothing to do with the light, of course, and which is described to be beyond description, and logic) the miracles (full of them), and even the very strange phenomenon with the disappearing of the physical body. And then I realized, that, maybe there is something in this "method" of Christian Orthodoxy also. I just cant be so full of myself to think that only "my way" is the best way,, and all the others method, from other traditions are wrong or limited. The true is that "I don't know", because I didn't checked practically. I can stay here, in this attitude, I don't need to feel safe, by considering all the other tradition lower.
From what I read, you have a superficial knowledge about the Christian mystical path, but you judge from the point of view of a person who really knows both tradition.
I personally don't know in reality what is all about Christianity, because I didn't' experienced the highest enlightenment of this tradition. I don't know what is Buddhism in reality , because I didn't experienced the highest state of enlightenment of this tradition. You can talk about something when you really know about what you are talking, Otherwise, is just ignorance and "self protection" to reject based on a superficial knowledge.
If I remember correctly Buddha sad: don't believe anything because I told you so, but check everything for yourself. There is an identical quote in Christianity also. For me this is a prove, that probably, Jesus or Buddha wouldn't have this attitude.

An interesting fact: if you go on a Christian orthodox forum, you could find exactly the same attitude regarding Buddhism. They have a superficial knowledge of Buddhism, and they start judging from that point of view, and they reject everything else. If you told them about similar aspects from Buddhism; great compassion, wisdom, etc, they listen, they accept some facts, but they always consider apriorically that they method is obviously superior
Cool

[Grigoris]

Bodhisattva or not, if half the people on this thread thread devoted as much time to healing the sick, feeding the hungry and preaching and practicing love and unity like Christ did, this world would be a much better place!

What's better? Knowing and talking about bodhicitta and dependent origination but not acting on them, or being ignorant of dependent origination and bodhicitta yet acting in the manner of somebody that has realised them?

ie what is more important: talking the talk or walking the walk?

[spanda]

Bodhisattva or not, if half the people on this thread thread devoted as much time to healing the sick, feeding the hungry and preaching and practicing love and unity like Christ did, this world would be a much better place!

What's better? Knowing and talking about bodhicitta and dependent origination but not acting on them, or being ignorant of dependent origination and bodhicitta yet acting in the manner of somebody that has realised them?

ie what is more important: talking the talk or walking the walk?

[ronnewmexico]

I'm sorry no...Buddhism for our means, to attain enlightenment and thusly the greatest amount of helping for others is not the superior way, it is to borrow a phrase...the one and only way.

I don't have to wander in a sewer pipe to know that I don't want to wander in that pipe beforhand. The description of such is enough, I will then avoid that place.

Theism is theism and the concepts are just not valid. Some forms of buddhism it is true approximate theism but most they do not.
Theism is directly contraindicated in buddhism there is ample evidence. Absolutism eternalism it goes by varying names the scholors can bring them forth.
The basic refutation is not in scripture nor scholorly to my opinion....it just does not make sense.
Good for christians stopping them from being hedonists, so they may be more compassonate believing in their heaven eternal...sure I'd buy that.

A way out of this thing.....no.
Buddhism only provides that. A shame if you don't see that as it is you not us that don't see that.
Could a theist say the same thing..sure. A theist cannot show how a thing exists from its own side without dependant origination however..such is buddhism the basis.....findable.

So you are welcome to your opinion. Opinion only it is and remains till you find a thing called god or whatever existant only from its own side no dependant origination about it eternal,and unchanging aspect...show that. I believe then in your christian god.

Till then no I will not willingly enter that pipe. I know what it holds.

Feel free GK...to tell me all about myself. I know no greater authority on what I may do say or act than you.
Tell me then how much is enough and to which half do I belong I would like to know...first I request you mention my name...my true name, who knows me so well to judge me so.