Children Covid Vaccinations

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Hazel
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Thank you for reopening the thread.

A neighbor's son who is very close with my children woke up coughing and having trouble breathing. He is slightly asthmatic and so has been using an inhaler today. A few days ago another close friend of my children was not feeling well and tested positive. We are testing our children every morning. Our children's afterschool teacher remarked that the playground was empty today. We might be in the midst of a little wave in our school district.

There is no way masking can be enforced completely in schools and preventing children from playing closely is cruel.

In the US, the FDA's advisory board voted to make the vaccine available to children. Approval should be given in a few days and shots should be available within a couple weeks.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:38 pm

There is no way masking can be enforced completely in schools and preventing children from playing closely is cruel.

In the US, the FDA's advisory board voted to make the vaccine available to children. Approval should be given in a few days and shots should be available within a couple weeks.

This is biggest reason I want my youngest vaccinated- return to ‘normal’ activities, etc. which means improvement in his mental health.


Still, the deliberations were interesting and it’s a more qualified approval than you might think. Some on the board mentioned that this decision should not translate to mandates for children, and part of the reason was that for some kids (immune suppressed, etc.) this is a life or death thing. However, again AFAIK I am still correct that a kid in a highly vaxxed areas the decision is more of a toss up with the myocarditis risk, so it is a much more qualified decision than it was with adults. Some were uncomfortable with the notion of it as a requirement for all children.

Some details mentioned here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... 1-rcna3726


I personally conclude it is worth it, but if they end up mandating this for kids in a widespread way with as little testing data as there is, IMO that is a stupid thing. Nonetheless I totally expect exactly that in CA, and my state tends to follow their lead.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:38 pm Thank you for reopening the thread.

A neighbor's son who is very close with my children woke up coughing and having trouble breathing. He is slightly asthmatic and so has been using an inhaler today. A few days ago another close friend of my children was not feeling well and tested positive. We are testing our children every morning. Our children's afterschool teacher remarked that the playground was empty today. We might be in the midst of a little wave in our school district.

There is no way masking can be enforced completely in schools and preventing children from playing closely is cruel.

In the US, the FDA's advisory board voted to make the vaccine available to children. Approval should be given in a few days and shots should be available within a couple weeks.
If I remember correctly there is now a big surge in children being really sick in Czechia, why? Well because we basically kept them entire year at home doing their shcool stuff online and their immune systems took a big hit by doing that. Children simply need to get sick and all sorts of stuff. Not covid sick! But sick nevertheless.

In case of teenagers their mental health is in question. Yeah some are okay with how things are but quite a lot of them had depressive episodes or their mental health got worse in general.

I really hate that so many people ignore the obvious solution such as vaccination and believe all kinds of nonsense and we as a society then have to pay the bill so to speak. I am slowly arriving to a conclusion that now no lockdowns should happen as many people had the chance and made their choice. That is ofc immoral as it was badly informed choice and the medical staff and their families will still suffer, however what are we supposed to do when a big portion of people just doesn't want to cooperate?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Virgo »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:07 am
I really hate that so many people ignore the obvious solution such as vaccination and believe all kinds of nonsense and we as a society then have to pay the bill so to speak. I am slowly arriving to a conclusion that now no lockdowns should happen as many people had the chance and made their choice. That is ofc immoral as it was badly informed choice and the medical staff and their families will still suffer, however what are we supposed to do when a big portion of people just doesn't want to cooperate?
People of the past have been crazy. People of the present are crazy. People of the future will be crazy. People who do not anticipate that large numbers of people will act crazily haven't read enough history.

Virgo
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Virgo wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:25 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:07 am
I really hate that so many people ignore the obvious solution such as vaccination and believe all kinds of nonsense and we as a society then have to pay the bill so to speak. I am slowly arriving to a conclusion that now no lockdowns should happen as many people had the chance and made their choice. That is ofc immoral as it was badly informed choice and the medical staff and their families will still suffer, however what are we supposed to do when a big portion of people just doesn't want to cooperate?
People of the past have been crazy. People of the present are crazy. People of the future will be crazy. People who do not anticipate that large numbers of people will act crazily haven't read enough history.

Virgo
Or just still cling to hope that we can do better. :tongue:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by PeterC »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:07 am I am slowly arriving to a conclusion that now no lockdowns should happen as many people had the chance and made their choice. That is ofc immoral as it was badly informed choice and the medical staff and their families will still suffer, however what are we supposed to do when a big portion of people just doesn't want to cooperate?
It's difficult. Let's take a hypothetical country where people are stupid and vaccination is low despite it being freely available. The government could say, ok, you made your choice, we're opening up and if you get sick then that's your problem. But then the hospitals will be flooded with COVID patients, non-urgent surgeries for non-COVID problems will get delayed, and there will be vaccinated people whose stage 1 cancer becomes stage 3 cancer because it wasn't treated early enough. So there is an argument for some sort of lockdown in those situations, because even vaccinated people will suffer health consequences if the healthcare system is overloaded.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

PeterC wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:40 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:07 am I am slowly arriving to a conclusion that now no lockdowns should happen as many people had the chance and made their choice. That is ofc immoral as it was badly informed choice and the medical staff and their families will still suffer, however what are we supposed to do when a big portion of people just doesn't want to cooperate?
It's difficult. Let's take a hypothetical country where people are stupid and vaccination is low despite it being freely available. The government could say, ok, you made your choice, we're opening up and if you get sick then that's your problem. But then the hospitals will be flooded with COVID patients, non-urgent surgeries for non-COVID problems will get delayed, and there will be vaccinated people whose stage 1 cancer becomes stage 3 cancer because it wasn't treated early enough. So there is an argument for some sort of lockdown in those situations, because even vaccinated people will suffer health consequences if the healthcare system is overloaded.
Oh ti is bad either way. There have to be measures put into place to slow it down. However, as I look around people are kidn of done with following measures. At least here that is. It is a difficult situation as we might be sacrigificing a lot and for nothing as people will just disobey.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:05 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:38 pm

There is no way masking can be enforced completely in schools and preventing children from playing closely is cruel.

In the US, the FDA's advisory board voted to make the vaccine available to children. Approval should be given in a few days and shots should be available within a couple weeks.

This is biggest reason I want my youngest vaccinated- return to ‘normal’ activities, etc. which means improvement in his mental health.


Still, the deliberations were interesting and it’s a more qualified approval than you might think. Some on the board mentioned that this decision should not translate to mandates for children, and part of the reason was that for some kids (immune suppressed, etc.) this is a life or death thing. However, again AFAIK I am still correct that a kid in a highly vaxxed areas the decision is more of a toss up with the myocarditis risk, so it is a much more qualified decision than it was with adults. Some were uncomfortable with the notion of it as a requirement for all children.

Some details mentioned here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... 1-rcna3726


I personally conclude it is worth it, but if they end up mandating this for kids in a widespread way with as little testing data as there is, IMO that is a stupid thing. Nonetheless I totally expect exactly that in CA, and my state tends to follow their lead.
I wasn't sure how to read the board's equivocation. Maybe they just don't want to deal with death threats from whackadoodles. I can understand if there are continuing questions about side effects like myocarditis. At a future time, if the vaccine is confirmed to pose no more risk to health than the other vaccinations generally required to attend many public schools - MMR, flu - I don't see why they couldn't be mandated.

And who knows - maybe we build up some sort of immunity over time that makes SARS cov 2 no more of a health threat than other corona viruses.

I don't think adult vaccination rates really help keeping unvaccinated children safe. We have 80%+ vax rates (last announced in August, so likely higher now) and there is still an apparent wave of infections working through the school. You know little kids - if there is a bug around, they will find a way to get it. I'm sure pre pandemic, schools were the main vector of colds and flus and all kinds of other weird and gross infections and lice, we just didn't pay much attention because that was life. Adult vaccination rates might slow spread form community to community, but once it gets into the schools, its everywhere. That weighs in favor of mandatory vaccinations for children if we really want to keep infection rates down.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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I was thinking about why people distrust the vaccine and I started thinking about why I am so open to it. I think it comes back to biology class back in grade school. I don't know if my education was exceptional or if I just retained information better than others, but I remember studying the basic mechanisms by which the body fights off virus infections - after exposure, our body produces specialized cells that bind to these infections and neutralize them. I remember words like phages and T-cells but don't remember what they do specifically. Vaccinations work by introducing enough of the virus that cells that recognize the infection are able to be produced while not developing into an actual infection and illness. mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna work a little differently by introducing modified mRNA that stimulate cells to produce the proteins that recognize the COVID virus - a sort of short circuit trigger of the body's immune response.

This is some esoteric stuff. My wife who is very well educated probably does not know this. She does, however, have close friends from childhood who are physicians and biologists who she trusts and who assure her as to the efficacy of the vaccines.

I think of all the people for whom this is just black box kind of stuff who, not understanding the science, are just going on the latest announcements of the CDC or whatever health organization. They, the "experts" have been changing their message every few weeks, even day to day. For those who understand that emerging science works like this - changing hypotheses as the data emerges - it might be frustrating but its understandable. For those who don't understand, it just sounds like people don't know what they're talking about and are making it up as they go along. For those people looking for explanations that they can relate to, conspiracy theories and what not might get at that itch.

We live in a very complex world with a lot of specialized knowledge. Without trust, I don't know how it holds together. Trust, it seems, would be fostered if people at least understood a little bit about what specialists do.

It comes back - is there a failure of education or is it just unreasonable to expect people to learn and retain knowledge about how the immune system works?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:33 pm ...We live in a very complex world with a lot of specialized knowledge. Without trust, I don't know how it holds together. Trust, it seems, would be fostered if people at least understood a little bit about what specialists do.

It comes back - is there a failure of education or is it just unreasonable to expect people to learn and retain knowledge about how the immune system works?
I'm going to broaden it a bit to note that trust in science has been systematically undermined for nefarious purposes by various special interest groups, in the US and other countries including Australia, for about the last 50 years. Merchants of Doubt - https://theecologist.org/2010/sep/10/merchants-doubt - documented it ten years ago and isn't yet wrong.

Even more broadly, commercial interests have been systematically dumbing down the media to ten-second sound bites.

And here we are. :toilet:

/rant

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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Nemo »

For parents concerned about heart inflammation (myocarditis) after #CovidVaccine.
Risk with vaccine is 1 in 10,000 to 50,000 ish in teens. Mild, self-limited.
Risk with COVID disease was 1 in 177 college athletes (9 in 1597)
Additionally what I'm reading about brain lesions is downright scary. You want to start fighting Covid in hours with a vaccine, it takes days without one to produce your first antibodies. Who knows what organ systems it can wreck in that time.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:05 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:38 pm

There is no way masking can be enforced completely in schools and preventing children from playing closely is cruel.

In the US, the FDA's advisory board voted to make the vaccine available to children. Approval should be given in a few days and shots should be available within a couple weeks.

This is biggest reason I want my youngest vaccinated- return to ‘normal’ activities, etc. which means improvement in his mental health.


Still, the deliberations were interesting and it’s a more qualified approval than you might think. Some on the board mentioned that this decision should not translate to mandates for children, and part of the reason was that for some kids (immune suppressed, etc.) this is a life or death thing. However, again AFAIK I am still correct that a kid in a highly vaxxed areas the decision is more of a toss up with the myocarditis risk, so it is a much more qualified decision than it was with adults. Some were uncomfortable with the notion of it as a requirement for all children.

Some details mentioned here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... 1-rcna3726


I personally conclude it is worth it, but if they end up mandating this for kids in a widespread way with as little testing data as there is, IMO that is a stupid thing. Nonetheless I totally expect exactly that in CA, and my state tends to follow their lead.
I wasn't sure how to read the board's equivocation. Maybe they just don't want to deal with death threats from whackadoodles. I can understand if there are continuing questions about side effects like myocarditis. At a future time, if the vaccine is confirmed to pose no more risk to health than the other vaccinations generally required to attend many public schools - MMR, flu - I don't see why they couldn't be mandated.

And who knows - maybe we build up some sort of immunity over time that makes SARS cov 2 no more of a health threat than other corona viruses.

I don't think adult vaccination rates really help keeping unvaccinated children safe. We have 80%+ vax rates (last announced in August, so likely higher now) and there is still an apparent wave of infections working through the school. You know little kids - if there is a bug around, they will find a way to get it. I'm sure pre pandemic, schools were the main vector of colds and flus and all kinds of other weird and gross infections and lice, we just didn't pay much attention because that was life. Adult vaccination rates might slow spread form community to community, but once it gets into the schools, its everywhere. That weighs in favor of mandatory vaccinations for children if we really want to keep infection rates down.
The adult vaccination thing keeping kids safer is not really a debate point, it’s fact. You can look up the stats on where kids have the highest incidence if want more info, the difference is stark. We could debate whether it keeps them -safe enough- or not of course. I think not having the be a vector for the disease is a good argument.

Again, they debated the way they did for the exact reasons I mention here, watch the deliberations. Minimal testing means we don’t know the myocarditis risk for this age group yet, some kids are in more danger than others, and some estimates say upwards of 40% of kids might have already had it. They discussed it as they did because that’s the medically responsible thing, nothing to do with whackadoodles.

Again, some of the people on the board itself mentioned this was not carte blanch for mandates….not that that was never a possibility, but that at this point it does not make sense because of the myocarditis concern. So I am not making this up, but repeating things the deliberators themselves said. In other words, I am ‘following the science’ to the best of my ability.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:09 pm The adult vaccination thing keeping kids safer is not really a debate point, it’s fact. You can look up the stats on where kids have the highest incidence if want more info, the difference is stark. We could debate whether it keeps them -safe enough- or not of course. I think not having the be a vector for the disease is a good argument.
I think you misunderstood my point.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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It should probably be mandated for children. Doctor's exemption only. Kids are just better at maintaining homeostasis. A deeper dive with MRIs still finds massive organ damage as the above study of college athletes indicates.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:09 pm The adult vaccination thing keeping kids safer is not really a debate point, it’s fact. You can look up the stats on where kids have the highest incidence if want more info, the difference is stark. We could debate whether it keeps them -safe enough- or not of course. I think not having the be a vector for the disease is a good argument.
I think you misunderstood my point.
Not really, I am just sticking to what the deliberations were about, so we are on different pages I think.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Nemo wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:51 pm It should probably be mandated for children. Doctor's exemption only. Kids are just better at maintaining homeostasis. A deeper dive with MRIs still finds massive organ damage as the above study of college athletes indicates.
Image
It’d be pretty crazy to mandate something without knowing the risks for this age group yet (which we don’t due to the ethics of large scale RCTs for vaccination and kids) Once they do and they turn out to be minimal (which I expect personally), then sure.

Seriously though, perhaps it’s worth listening to the people on the actual panel that made such points instead of speculating on the morality of it.

Paul Offit does public appearances regularly and is worth listening to. His arguments convinced me that it was worth the risk for my son.

Also, what study?
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Norwegian »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:10 pm Also, what study?
This post:
Nemo wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:49 pm For parents concerned about heart inflammation (myocarditis) after #CovidVaccine.
Risk with vaccine is 1 in 10,000 to 50,000 ish in teens. Mild, self-limited.
Risk with COVID disease was 1 in 177 college athletes (9 in 1597)
Additionally what I'm reading about brain lesions is downright scary. You want to start fighting Covid in hours with a vaccine, it takes days without one to produce your first antibodies. Who knows what organ systems it can wreck in that time.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Norwegian wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:36 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:10 pm Also, what study?
This post:
Nemo wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:49 pm For parents concerned about heart inflammation (myocarditis) after #CovidVaccine.
Risk with vaccine is 1 in 10,000 to 50,000 ish in teens. Mild, self-limited.
Risk with COVID disease was 1 in 177 college athletes (9 in 1597)
Additionally what I'm reading about brain lesions is downright scary. You want to start fighting Covid in hours with a vaccine, it takes days without one to produce your first antibodies. Who knows what organ systems it can wreck in that time.
Yeah, I think it’s common knowledge at this point that COVID itself is typically greater risk for myocarditis than the vaccine. I think more severe myocarditis as well.

That study is not particularly mind blowing to me, Tbh, and some of the cases are sub-clinical. While it’s important information, there is nothing in it about a grip of athletes experiencing “ massive organ damage”, that is simply not an accurate representation of the study I don’t think. Not saying it’s not scary or isn’t important, but the study itself is clear about what it is and is not, if you read it.

I keep hearing people talk about “massive organ damage” but am only hearing anecdotal stuff. Does anyone have an actual study about this? As I said, the study above simply is not that.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Queequeg »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:09 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:09 pm The adult vaccination thing keeping kids safer is not really a debate point, it’s fact. You can look up the stats on where kids have the highest incidence if want more info, the difference is stark. We could debate whether it keeps them -safe enough- or not of course. I think not having the be a vector for the disease is a good argument.
I think you misunderstood my point.
Not really, I am just sticking to what the deliberations were about, so we are on different pages I think.
Yes, really because you continue to miss my original point. Indeed different pages. Carry on.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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