You could also explain your original point, maybe I missed it. What exactly did I miss? Can you summarize it?Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:57 pmYes, really because you continue to miss my original point. Indeed different pages. Carry on.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:09 pmNot really, I am just sticking to what the deliberations were about, so we are on different pages I think.
Children Covid Vaccinations
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
You dismissed what I was saying about adult vaccinations and spread of covid in school children with your unassailable correlation between adult vaccinations and children infections. Its one thing to take the stats and say adult vaccination correlates to children's infection rates, but that stat only goes so far.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:01 pmYou could also explain your original point, maybe I missed it. What exactly did I miss? Can you summarize it?Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:57 pmYes, really because you continue to miss my original point. Indeed different pages. Carry on.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:09 pm
Not really, I am just sticking to what the deliberations were about, so we are on different pages I think.
I pointed out, we have 80%+ vaccination rates among those eligible for the shot, that's on the high end for anywhere in the US, and yet, Covid seems to be getting around our young children - 5-11 - who can't yet get the vaccine. All kinds of issues are raised here - how likely is it that parents and school health professionals are going to catch an outbreak before its already rolling along, especially where children tend to have few or minor symptoms, where parents need to get to work and aren't going to hold kids out of school because they have a little cough. There was some idea that children aren't contagious a while back, but we now know that to be far less than true. To a certain point, adult vaccination probably does protect our children, but once the virus starts spreading in school, adult vaccination rates are irrelevant. Instead, we have a bunch third graders all over each other with spotty mask enforcement, yelling and coughing and sneezing all over each other. I think of it this way - adult vaccinations provide a kind of protective wall from the outside world - if adults don't get the virus and don't get contagious, then the kids won't get it. However, once that wall is penetrated - ie. someone vaxxed or not, passes the virus to their unvaxxed kid who then takes it to school on the school bus, and to recess and the cafeteria, and the gym, and class... now its basically spreading rampant among the kids as far as its being limited by masking and social distancing enforcement by teachers, which we all know is not only imperfect, but not necessarily desirable - I want my kids to have a normal childhood without the hangups that this COVID panic is instilling in them.
I get the reservations about the safety of the shot. Overall, I'm looking past this to some point in the future where we have a good idea about its risks based on large data sets, and we can put the shot on the list of required shots - like MMR and, in some districts, flu shots.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:50 pmYou dismissed what I was saying about adult vaccinations and spread of covid in school children with your unassailable correlation between adult vaccinations and children infections. Its one thing to take the stats and say adult vaccination correlates to children's infection rates, but that stat only goes so far.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:01 pmYou could also explain your original point, maybe I missed it. What exactly did I miss? Can you summarize it?
It goes far enough to be a part of the risk/benefit calculation for the professionals, that’s significant, since it is their job to deliberate these things.
We can all still get COVID even with the vaccine, we are just less likely to, and of course we/they are way less likely to get really sick if we do get it - that ain’t trivial! So, it is not going away, but it may be that the amount of mitigation to overall spread is another factor that makes vaccinating them a good idea. We don’t know the degree to which it would tamp down spread among kids yet, these guys have a hard job making risk/benefit calculations with such little data. That is exactly why the decision was as qualified as it was, and if you listen to the people who made it, they will directly say so.I pointed out, we have 80%+ vaccination rates among those eligible for the shot, that's on the high end for anywhere in the US, and yet, Covid seems to be getting around our young children - 5-11 - who can't yet get the vaccine. All kinds of issues are raised here - how likely is it that parents and school health professionals are going to catch an outbreak before its already rolling along, especially where children tend to have few or minor symptoms, where parents need to get to work and aren't going to hold kids out of school because they have a little cough. There was some idea that children aren't contagious a while back, but we now know that to be far less than true. To a certain point, adult vaccination probably does protect our children, but once the virus starts spreading in school, adult vaccination rates are irrelevant. Instead, we have a bunch third graders all over each other with spotty mask enforcement, yelling and coughing and sneezing all over each other. I think of it this way - adult vaccinations provide a kind of protective wall from the outside world - if adults don't get the virus and don't get contagious, then the kids won't get it. However, once that wall is penetrated - ie. someone vaxxed or not, passes the virus to their unvaxxed kid who then takes it to school on the school bus, and to recess and the cafeteria, and the gym, and class... now its basically spreading rampant among the kids as far as its being limited by masking and social distancing enforcement by teachers, which we all know is not only imperfect, but not necessarily desirable - I want my kids to have a normal childhood without the hangups that this COVID panic is instilling in them.
No one knows yet, because we don’t really know what long term immunity will look like, nor whether there will be new variants that escape these vaccines or not. I have read a lot on the subject and the jury appears to be completely out on that for now.I get the reservations about the safety of the shot. Overall, I'm looking past this to some point in the future where we have a good idea about its risks based on large data sets, and we can put the shot on the list of required shots - like MMR and, in some districts, flu shots.
My daughter got vaccinated btw, she is 12 and had no issues. I was a little concerned because she had POTS but she is fine.
Paul Offit has done a couple of interviews with Zubin Damania that are really worth listening to on this subject.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Doing emergency medicine on children is very hard because their bodies are so good at homeostasis. They seem fine, vitals all within acceptable ranges and 2 minutes later you need a crash cart. Just because the damage is not readily visible does not mean it is not massive.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:45 pmYeah, I think it’s common knowledge at this point that COVID itself is typically greater risk for myocarditis than the vaccine. I think more severe myocarditis as well.Norwegian wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:36 pmThis post:Nemo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:49 pm For parents concerned about heart inflammation (myocarditis) after #CovidVaccine.
Risk with vaccine is 1 in 10,000 to 50,000 ish in teens. Mild, self-limited.
Risk with COVID disease was 1 in 177 college athletes (9 in 1597)
Additionally what I'm reading about brain lesions is downright scary. You want to start fighting Covid in hours with a vaccine, it takes days without one to produce your first antibodies. Who knows what organ systems it can wreck in that time.
That study is not particularly mind blowing to me, Tbh, and some of the cases are sub-clinical. While it’s important information, there is nothing in it about a grip of athletes experiencing “ massive organ damage”, that is simply not an accurate representation of the study I don’t think. Not saying it’s not scary or isn’t important, but the study itself is clear about what it is and is not, if you read it.
I keep hearing people talk about “massive organ damage” but am only hearing anecdotal stuff. Does anyone have an actual study about this? As I said, the study above simply is not that.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-00064-5
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-00064-5.pdf
https://keismedicalprofessional.blogspo ... brain.html
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
All three of those studies point to an neuro symptoms related to cardio pulmonary stuff, in the third one is not a complete study that I can see but a proposed mechanism. When I viewed the page also had anime characters on it, what is that site? The first are wrt so SARS-Cov2 induced pneumonia.
That is not “massive organ damage” of the sort you are implying I don’t think. But rather what happens when a bodily system begins to shut down, and affects other systems. If COVID caused this kind of failure on the large scale, absent the known cardiopulmonary stuff, we wouldn’t be here having this debate I don’t think.
My aunt died a while back and this was her situation precisely, but it does not describe what you seem to be implying it does. I also have a friend who had a likely COVID-induced stroke. I get how dangerous it is for many people, it’s serious shot. However I am unclear how you think these are related to the discussion here other than that they are some studies about COVID.
At any rate, none of those studies show any kind of ‘massive organ damage’ in all kinds of kids (MISC is the only COVID related thing where I’ve heard of that, and is heart wrenching but not that common ), and that claim still appears to be a speculation of yours.
Look, I get it, I think vaccination is important too, it’s fine, but still seems like you are basically making shit up or at least misinterpreting studies. I asked medical folks I know though, and I will see what they say before I dismiss the idea.
A couple of you guys have spent the whole year and a half or whatever talking about “the stuff we’re seeing is scary” etc. but never qualifying it, or presenting data related to what you are saying, just anecdotes.
I am not a medical person, but I do work in a clinical field and this method of ‘debate’ gets a little silly, make a data driven argument or don’t, but this in between approach is not convincing. What we know of COVID is already scary, we’ve seen what it does. I don’t get the role of this kind of speculation.
That is not “massive organ damage” of the sort you are implying I don’t think. But rather what happens when a bodily system begins to shut down, and affects other systems. If COVID caused this kind of failure on the large scale, absent the known cardiopulmonary stuff, we wouldn’t be here having this debate I don’t think.
My aunt died a while back and this was her situation precisely, but it does not describe what you seem to be implying it does. I also have a friend who had a likely COVID-induced stroke. I get how dangerous it is for many people, it’s serious shot. However I am unclear how you think these are related to the discussion here other than that they are some studies about COVID.
At any rate, none of those studies show any kind of ‘massive organ damage’ in all kinds of kids (MISC is the only COVID related thing where I’ve heard of that, and is heart wrenching but not that common ), and that claim still appears to be a speculation of yours.
Look, I get it, I think vaccination is important too, it’s fine, but still seems like you are basically making shit up or at least misinterpreting studies. I asked medical folks I know though, and I will see what they say before I dismiss the idea.
A couple of you guys have spent the whole year and a half or whatever talking about “the stuff we’re seeing is scary” etc. but never qualifying it, or presenting data related to what you are saying, just anecdotes.
I am not a medical person, but I do work in a clinical field and this method of ‘debate’ gets a little silly, make a data driven argument or don’t, but this in between approach is not convincing. What we know of COVID is already scary, we’ve seen what it does. I don’t get the role of this kind of speculation.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
I call brain and heart lesions that can be found in imaging major organ damage. I consider those organs very valuable and both can be damaged permanently.
Covid often has a neurological component. Some put CNS involvement at 80%. Loss of smell, etc are often the first symptoms. Kids immune systems may be better primed than adults for Covid but everyone has a bad day occasionally.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41582-020-0398-3
Background stuff.
https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/ ... login=true
https://nn.neurology.org/content/8/2/e957
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-021-00926-1
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamane ... le/2779759
Covid often has a neurological component. Some put CNS involvement at 80%. Loss of smell, etc are often the first symptoms. Kids immune systems may be better primed than adults for Covid but everyone has a bad day occasionally.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41582-020-0398-3
Background stuff.
https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/ ... login=true
https://nn.neurology.org/content/8/2/e957
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-021-00926-1
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamane ... le/2779759
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Holy sh*t!
Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
America has cancer, and it is dying.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
It amazes me that people are not more concerned about this. It is indisputable at this point. It's something we suspected but weren't sure about a year ago. The prospect of possibly permanent neurological damage has to change your assessment of the costs and benefits of vaccination.
Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Other than the prospect of ending up in the hospital with a breathing tube, this.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:39 pmIt amazes me that people are not more concerned about this. It is indisputable at this point. It's something we suspected but weren't sure about a year ago. The prospect of possibly permanent neurological damage has to change your assessment of the costs and benefits of vaccination.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
I know the head of nursing in a major Boston Hospital. I know a top surgeon in the best hospital in Mexico City. You have no idea what they see. The public is largely unaware of how damaging this virus can be to unvaccinated people. The damage of Covid can be severe, even for many so-called "asymptomatic people." We have no data yet on how damaging it can be for people who have contract it after being properly vaccinated.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:15 pm What we know of COVID is already scary, we’ve seen what it does.
In three or four years, when we have more perspective and data, only then will the world at large have a true picture.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:45 pmI know the head of nursing in a major Boston Hospital. I know a top surgeon in the best hospital in Mexico City. You have no idea what they see. The public is largely unaware of how damaging this virus can be to unvaccinated people. The damage of Covid can be severe, even for many so-called "asymptomatic people." We have no data yet on how damaging it can be for people who have contract it after being properly vaccinated.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:15 pm What we know of COVID is already scary, we’ve seen what it does.
In three or four years, when we have more perspective and data, only then will the world at large have a true picture.
I know people in the medical world as well, including those treating COVID patients. If those people are responsible practitioners of medicine they will qualify what they are saying by acknowledging it is anecdotal at this point. Yes we know it can cause some serious long term stuff, at this point we do not know prevalence.
Perhaps you and they will end up being right, but claiming secret knowledge based on anecdotal experiences -even anecdotal experiences of very qualified folks- is not the same as actual empirical data.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
We have some indicator. There is some research looking at viral counts, from which we can draw inferences. My main takeaway from that we should expect some proportion of vaccinated asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic cases to have long-term effects, just as a (far higher) proportion of asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases do. This is consistent with the view that the vaccines’ benefit is harm reduction, not harm elimination.
Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Here is an empirical fact for you.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:00 pm Perhaps you and they will end up being right, but claiming secret knowledge based on anecdotal experiences -even anecdotal experiences of very qualified folks- is not the same as actual empirical data.
My friend's cousin contracted covid. He lost his sense of smell and had a headache for an afternoon, next day fine. No symptoms after this.
Move forward a year, has major medical event, unrelated to covid, unrelated to his lungs, or anything (kidney problems), and when they look at the results of his tomography, the damage to his lungs was extensive, and the pathologist agreed that damage was indeed from covid.
There will be many more instances of such cases. The reason we are not hearing about them now, is that finding this damage requires sophisticated imaging, and that is something which HMOs are unwilling to pay for in the US, but in Mexico it is very cheap.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
I’m confused as to what lung damage which shows up on imaging but has no symptoms would be, but other than that I don’t find it too surprising I guess.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Small lesions all over the man's lungs, consistent with covid infection, like his lungs had been shot with birdshot.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:10 pm I’m confused as to what lung damage which shows up on imaging but has no symptoms would be, but other than that I don’t find it too surprising I guess.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations
Would this heal?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:13 pmSmall lesions all over the man's lungs, consistent with covid infection, like his lungs had been shot with birdshot.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:10 pm I’m confused as to what lung damage which shows up on imaging but has no symptoms would be, but other than that I don’t find it too surprising I guess.