Children Covid Vaccinations

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I hate the media hysteria around this. Sure it might be a game changer, but there are also some docs in SA saying it causes mild disease, who to believe?

There is no point in getting all wound up about it until we actually know more. The emotional, mental and social, economic toll of people’s reaction to this is beginning to equal the devastation of the disease itself.

Zero Covid? I don’t think that was ever a sane strategy among anyone but politicians.

Zero Covid is a worse strategy against highly transmissible variants, not a saner one. Maybe Asian countries are culturally different enough to change that equation, idk but I’m skeptical.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:18 pm ...Zero Covid? I don’t think that was ever a sane strategy among anyone but politicians.

Zero Covid is a worse strategy against highly transmissible variants, not a saner one. Maybe Asian countries are culturally different enough to change that equation, idk but I’m skeptical.
I've just been reading about North Korea, as it happens. The authors of the article think (but aren't quite sure) that maybe they have managed to keep it out altogether, at the expense of increasing the isolation they are famous for.
If so, most countries, Asian or not, would consider the fix worse than the problem.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:23 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:18 pm ...Zero Covid? I don’t think that was ever a sane strategy among anyone but politicians.

Zero Covid is a worse strategy against highly transmissible variants, not a saner one. Maybe Asian countries are culturally different enough to change that equation, idk but I’m skeptical.
I've just been reading about North Korea, as it happens. The authors of the article think (but aren't quite sure) that maybe they have managed to keep it out altogether, at the expense of increasing the isolation they are famous for.
If so, most countries, Asian or not, would consider the fix worse than the problem.

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Kim
I’m not sure I’d trust an autocratic regimes Covid claims. But yeah, I get what you’re saying.
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PeterC
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Unfortunately it looks that way. It’s hypothesized that the omicron variant developed in a Botswanan HIV carrier - that’s one in five of the population. Since almost all the vaccines are going to rich countries and almost none to Africa, this was only a matter of time - if it’s not this variant it will be another before too long.

This thing isn’t going away anytime soon.
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:05 am It’s hypothesized that the omicron variant developed in a Botswanan HIV carrier - that’s one in five of the population.
What is the significance of this?
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by PeterC »

ManiThePainter wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:05 am It’s hypothesized that the omicron variant developed in a Botswanan HIV carrier - that’s one in five of the population.
What is the significance of this?
That there is a huge immunocompromised population of people in Africa, that we are not making vaccines available for and where public health monitoring is weak, that provide conditions to keep producing new variants
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Queequeg
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:16 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:23 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:18 pm ...Zero Covid? I don’t think that was ever a sane strategy among anyone but politicians.

Zero Covid is a worse strategy against highly transmissible variants, not a saner one. Maybe Asian countries are culturally different enough to change that equation, idk but I’m skeptical.
I've just been reading about North Korea, as it happens. The authors of the article think (but aren't quite sure) that maybe they have managed to keep it out altogether, at the expense of increasing the isolation they are famous for.
If so, most countries, Asian or not, would consider the fix worse than the problem.

:coffee:
Kim
I’m not sure I’d trust an autocratic regimes Covid claims. But yeah, I get what you’re saying.
I think E. Asian countries can pull off zero covid. E. Asian countries have very strict border control and immigration laws so they can actually close borders. To add a little perspective, to the extent that they have opened up their societies, these are relatively recent changes and it wouldn't be all that big of a deal to go back to those pre-liberalization days. They also have robust socialized medicine regimes and with a little adjustment are capable of directing resources to contact tracing and enforcing individual quarantines, which they have done successfully so far. Maybe all of Asia will become more like Bhutan.

I can see new travel patterns emerging out of this where E. Asian countries will gradually open to each other more while closing off to the rest of the world that is petulantly stupid and/or poor and inept. Another factor that could help China draw the rest of Asia deeper into their orbit over the long term.

IMHO, the Japanese, at least, while publicly expressing concern about the loss of income from tourism and international commerce, are secretly content that the country has an excuse to close the borders and return to the isolated conditions that prevailed for most of its recorded history. I'm not so secretly happy for my own reasons that visiting Kyoto will be so much nicer without the throngs of tourists. Kiyomizudera was not meant to be experienced while drowning in a sea of package tourists following a guide with a bullhorn. Tourism money is a deal with the devil. As Yogi Berra said, "Nobody ever goes there. Its too crowded."

Back to the thread - my kids have had both pfizer shots. My son is complaining of pain in his armpit, but its hard to tell if this is just another one of his regular complaints or something related to the shots.
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Nemo
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Nemo »

I think the world will change in some weird ways too. I'm confident that with a 6 month booster of Pfizer even Florida would be an acceptable risk. I agree getting into Asia will become difficult for Westerners. 3/5ths of Covid cases are in Europe now. Tiny Canada has thrown out over a million expired vaccines. It looks like the rich and well educated in the West will be immune. But to the world without vaccines we are a festering pit of disease full of selfish assholes. This will have long lasting diplomatic consequences. We have shown our true colors.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Nemo wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:32 pm It looks like the rich and well educated in the West will be immune.
1984. Except the books will actually be kept and maintained inside while the people outside will just be stupid and sick.

A little ironic that part of the antivax/antimask sentiment is a spastic reaction against perceived elites but is going to end up creating yet another criterion by which the unwashed masses are identified and segregated.
We have shown our true colors.
I don't know about Canada, but I think the motto of the United States is not e pluribus unum but actually "I got mine!"
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:55 pm
PeterC wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:05 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:35 am

That’s clinically interesting, but clearly they weren’t affecting his breathing or lung function in a noticeable way -I assume, so I’m confused as to what the significance of them is thought to be in the long term.
I'll try to find the research but there's been a number of imaging studies of cases one year post recovery finding persistent damage even for asymptomatic cases. I don't think any did imaging of the brain. I can understand why they wouldn't, nobody really likes to expose their brains to extra doses of radiation unless clinically necessary.

Purely anecdotally - I'm pretty convinced that symptomatic cases can lead to persistent neurological deficits. I've now seen it in enough people.
I am personally convinced that covid infection is contributing to rage disorders as a result of neurological damage.
When I was in Melbourne just recently, there were signs everywhere not to abuse the staff. It was quite disturbing. Given their relatively low numbers (less than 1 in 100 has had it at that stage), I am guessing the rage may be due to the psychological factors.

Regarding Omicron, I was hoping against hope that this is the promised mild and highly transmissible variant that will displace Delta and lead to it becoming just "another flu", but WHO's warning suggests that they know that it isn't...
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:55 pm
PeterC wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:05 am

I'll try to find the research but there's been a number of imaging studies of cases one year post recovery finding persistent damage even for asymptomatic cases. I don't think any did imaging of the brain. I can understand why they wouldn't, nobody really likes to expose their brains to extra doses of radiation unless clinically necessary.

Purely anecdotally - I'm pretty convinced that symptomatic cases can lead to persistent neurological deficits. I've now seen it in enough people.
I am personally convinced that covid infection is contributing to rage disorders as a result of neurological damage.
When I was in Melbourne just recently, there were signs everywhere not to abuse the staff. It was quite disturbing. Given their relatively low numbers (less than 1 in 100 has had it at that stage), I am guessing the rage may be due to the psychological factors.

Regarding Omicron, I was hoping against hope that this is the promised mild and highly transmissible variant that will displace Delta and lead to it becoming just "another flu", but WHO's warning suggests that they know that it isn't...
They don’t know that at all, they are stressed by the mutation and possible immune escape and reinfection, and have no idea yet about the severity. Signs are good so far but of course there is not a large pool of cases yet, so who knows.

No one knows severity until it is more widespread, and people who claim to are just engaged in speculation.
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Norwegian »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:45 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:55 pm

I am personally convinced that covid infection is contributing to rage disorders as a result of neurological damage.
When I was in Melbourne just recently, there were signs everywhere not to abuse the staff. It was quite disturbing. Given their relatively low numbers (less than 1 in 100 has had it at that stage), I am guessing the rage may be due to the psychological factors.

Regarding Omicron, I was hoping against hope that this is the promised mild and highly transmissible variant that will displace Delta and lead to it becoming just "another flu", but WHO's warning suggests that they know that it isn't...
They don’t know that at all, they are stressed by the mutation and possible immune escape and reinfection, and have no idea yet about the severity. Signs are good so far but of course there is not a large pool of cases yet, so who knows.

No one knows severity until it is more widespread, and people who claim to are just engaged in speculation.
So this is from yesterday:
The Danish vaccine researcher Ole F. Olesen at the European Vaccine Institute believes that the omicron variant can lead to a positive development, rather than a negative one.

- We are at a very early stage, but there are some sporadic indications from doctors and hospitals in South Africa that the people who are infected with the omikron variant seem to have a much milder disease picture, he says to the Danish newspaper BT.

- It can be really good news, he continues. "The omicron variant appears to be far more contagious than the dominant delta variant. If this is allowed to spread freely, it can take over as the dominant corona variant in the world."

There is still a lot we do not know about the new variant.

- It depends on how much milder the course of the disease is. If it is significantly milder than the current delta variant, it may be an advantage that the different virus variants outcompete each other, and that omicron then becomes the dominant variant, he says. Then it will also make sense to let the new variant spread as quickly as possible, Olesen says to the newspaper. (Google Translate edit)
We can only hope that it turns out this way.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Yeah, I’m really hoping it goes this way. If it does afaik it would mean endemicity of the disease in a pretty painless way, comparatively.

I’m not a virologist or scientist obviously but I have heard a lot of educated people say that this is not an unlikely outcome necessarily, and that some of our current cold viruses, etc. got where they are through this sort of evolution.

Man I hope so, this has been so difficult in so many ways.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:28 pm Yeah, I’m really hoping it goes this way. If it does afaik it would mean endemicity of the disease in a pretty painless way, comparatively.

I’m not a virologist or scientist obviously but I have heard a lot of educated people say that this is not an unlikely outcome necessarily, and that some of our current cold viruses, etc. got where they are through this sort of evolution.
Yes. And it has been a co-evolution, not just the bugs changing but people as well. Those of us more resistant to the bugs lived longer, had more kids, etc. And it can get complicated, e.g., one of the things that helped people survive malaria is something that's not really good for us in other ways but it offered a relative advantage in the malarial region so it was inherited.
Man I hope so, this has been so difficult in so many ways.
Amen to that.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Children Covid Vaccinations

Post by Kim O'Hara »

PeterC wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:03 pm
ManiThePainter wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:05 am It’s hypothesized that the omicron variant developed in a Botswanan HIV carrier - that’s one in five of the population.
What is the significance of this?
That there is a huge immunocompromised population of people in Africa, that we are not making vaccines available for and where public health monitoring is weak, that provide conditions to keep producing new variants
A bit more background on that -
Mutations are far more likely to occur in people with weakened immune systems – as they are likely to take more time to clear the virus, giving it more time to multiply and mutate – and in unvaccinated people, as their immune systems are not primed by vaccines to destroy the virus quickly before it has a chance to mutate. South Africa has a relatively low vaccination rate, with only approximately 35 percent of the population fully vaccinated, and Botswana, where it is thought to have originated, has an even lower vaccination rate – due in large measure to global vaccine inequality. If Omicron did originate in Southern Africa, then this may be part of the reason why.
:reading: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021 ... id-variant

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