REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 pm What do Buddhists care about the Protestant Work Ethic?
Personally, nothing. I was raised an atheist. Perhaps one can view atheism as the final stage of the Reformation. I would be comfortable with that. But work ethic? I prefer festival cultures.

Not internally. Luther and the Two Popes led to a split of organization.
What is disunity but the splitting of a group of people?
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that this Pope is incredibly divisive.
Well, in my opinion the Catholic Church is completely corrupt bunch of hoary old pedophiles. It needs to be broken up just as much as Facebook and Amazon.


Plus, Catholicism has survived for centuries through syncretism. This is why Francis' incorporation of Pachamama is just par for the course.
Which is why it created such a scandal for the devouted members?
Plus, "syncretism" is a centuries long process, not a "shock" political maneuver.
You actually miss the point. Syncretism starts from below, not from above. The penetration of pre-Colombian mother goddesses into Catholicism began back in the 16th century, when Catholicism was introduced to the Americas. Francis merely acceded to something that has been happening in South America, and the Spanish dominated parts of North America for half a millennium.

I give you Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe (Coatlaxopeuh):

Image
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

You actually miss the point. Syncretism starts from below, not from above. The penetration of pre-Colombian mother goddesses into Catholicism began back in the 16th century, when Catholicism was introduced to the Americas. Francis merely acceded to something that has been happening in South America, and the Spanish dominated parts of North America for half a millennium.
So using an Andean goddess that the Amazonians don’t actually even worship organized by the Pope wouldn’t be syncretism then, right?

I agree. It’s white people feigning moral virtue by playing into a historically illiterate “Noble Savage Brown Person” fairy tale. The inner colonial spirit of the white man who thinks he is intellectually superior to such an extent that he can speak on behalf of another nation’s cultural traditions without having practiced it himself.

Much different than the gradual incorporation of Shinto beings into Japanese Buddhism.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

I doubt it. How do you explain Torquemada? You place too much emphasis on external conditions, friend.
With all due respect, you are the last person I expected to make that argument. However, you are probably right.

That being said, while individual motive is important - again, the ideas you put in your head influence the way you think and perceive the world, even if it’s from repeating the same words over and over again.

I’ll give an example.

A person might hear the opening hymn:
“ Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.”

A person with a missal or who knows the Mass might be following what the Priest says silently, and they’ll read this from Psalm 26 along with the Priest.

“O shut not up my soul with the sinners, nor my life with the bloodthirsty: in whose hands is wickedness, and their right hand is full of gifts. But as for me, I will walk innocently: ”


Is it wrongview to believe you have sins, and that God needs to cleanse you of it? Yes.

But by virtue of repeating those two lines, even mentally, at least once a week, a person will naturally come to the conclusion “The past is the past, I did evil, now is a fresh start to move forward”, and that will guide you morally in ways superior to not having these lines at all.



I attend a Rinzai practice and we recite Daito Kokushi’s admonition every session.

“ After my departure, some of you may preside over five temples in prosperous conditions, with towers and halls and holy books all decorated in gold and silver, and devotees may noisily crowd into the grounds; some may pass hours in reading the sutras and reciting the dharanis, and sitting long in contemplation may not give themselves up to sleep; they may, eating once a day and observing the fastdays, and, throughout the six periods of the day, practise all the religious deeds. Even when they are thus devoted to the cause, if their thoughts are not really dwelling on the mysterious and untransmissible Way of the Buddhas and Fathers, they may yet come to ignore the law of moral causation, ending in a complete downfall of the true religion. All such belong to the family of evil spirits.”

This is repeated each time weekly to orient the practitioners to the real reason WHY they should be here.
Last edited by Heimdall on Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:03 pm
You actually miss the point. Syncretism starts from below, not from above. The penetration of pre-Colombian mother goddesses into Catholicism began back in the 16th century, when Catholicism was introduced to the Americas. Francis merely acceded to something that has been happening in South America, and the Spanish dominated parts of North America for half a millennium.
So using an Andean goddess that the Amazonians don’t actually even worship organized by the Pope wouldn’t be syncretism then, right?
Some Amazonians do. There are Quecha speaking people in the Amazon basin, as well as Aymara speaking people.
I agree. It’s white people feigning moral virtue by playing into a historically illiterate “Noble Savage Brown Person” fairy tale. The inner colonial spirit of the white man who thinks he is intellectually superior to such an extent that he can speak on behalf of another nation’s cultural traditions without having practiced it himself.

And of course, you are misrepresenting the Pope himself:

The Amazon region is a multinational and interconnected whole, a great biome shared by nine countries: Brazil, Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Guyana, Peru, Surinam, Venezuela and the territory of French Guiana.

The fact is that this all began when a Catholic Activist, Alexander Tschugguel, threw a statue of Pachamamma into the Tiber that had been installed by the bishops of the Amazonian Synod themselves. Francis didn't put it there, they did.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2 ... azon-synod

The Amazon region is not just Amazonian Indians, but includes parts of Peru, etc., where people of Andean descent also live.

Frankly, you sound really uptight and weird. Relax. Enjoy life. Stop looking for things of which to disapprove. It will be better for your health.
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:21 pm
But by virtue of repeating those two lines, even mentally, at least once a week, a person will naturally come to the conclusion “The past is the past, I did evil, now is a fresh start to move forward”, and that will guide you morally in ways superior to not having these lines at all.
How is this any better than New age affirmations?
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

The Amazon region is a multinational and interconnected whole, a great biome shared by nine countries: Brazil, Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Guyana, Peru, Surinam, Venezuela and the territory of French Guiana.
I think one of the goals of the Synod was to “have the natives speak about consumerism and ecology”, mainly the Amazonian native Americans who aren’t “colonized”.

And the Synod wasn’t organized by Native Americans, it was organized by an old white dudes in Italy.
The fact is that this all began when a Catholic Activist, Alexander Tschugguel, threw a statue of Pachamamma into the Tiber that had been installed by the bishops of the Amazonian Synod themselves
Well “idolatry” is forbidden in that religion (at least of non-Catholic cosmological beings) as a consequence of Pre-Second Temple Jewish Henotheism.
Frankly, you sound really uptight and weird. Relax. Enjoy life. Stop looking for things of which to disapprove. It will be better for your health.
We are all in Samsara, and I have my attachments.
Last edited by Heimdall on Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:31 pm
Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:21 pm
But by virtue of repeating those two lines, even mentally, at least once a week, a person will naturally come to the conclusion “The past is the past, I did evil, now is a fresh start to move forward”, and that will guide you morally in ways superior to not having these lines at all.
How is this any better than New age affirmations?
“New Age” groups tend to not be about having discipline over your impulses and looking to higher spiritual goals, but are often a bastion of libertines with moralizing cliches that point to a delusion-based view of “spiritual freedom”

Yes, there are some Catholic groups that have some severe personal problems or are hedonic elitists, and some New Age groups that take their stuff seriously. But still.
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:36 pm
The Amazon region is a multinational and interconnected whole, a great biome shared by nine countries: Brazil, Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Guyana, Peru, Surinam, Venezuela and the territory of French Guiana.
I think one of the goals of the Synod was to “have the natives speak about consumerism and ecology”, mainly the Amazonian native Americans who aren’t “colonized”.

And the Synod wasn’t organized by Native Americans, it was organized by an old white dude in Italy.
So what? Old white dudes in Italy are forbidden to have an interest in the ecological health of the Amazon? Since when?

The fact is that this all began when a Catholic Activist, Alexander Tschugguel, threw a statue of Pachamamma into the Tiber that had been installed by the bishops of the Amazonian Synod themselves
Well “idolatry” is forbidden in that religion (at least of non-Catholic cosmological beings) as a consequence of Pre-Second Temple Jewish Henotheism.
Yes, which is why for example the Lady of the Guadalupe was finally canonized in the 19th century...Nuestra Señora de la Santa Muerte is next:

Image
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:40 pm
“New Age” groups tend to not be about having discipline over your impulses and looking to higher spiritual goals, but are often a bastion of libertines with moralizing cliches that point to a delusion-based view of “spiritual freedom”
You may not moralize with cliches, but your posts are little more than moralization. Constant disapproval and moralization. Seriously, either relax or join the Templars or something and go slay heathens.

In Dharma, we use mirrors more than binoculars. All faults we see are a reflection of our faults; all qualities we see are a reflection of our qualities.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:45 pm
Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:40 pm
“New Age” groups tend to not be about having discipline over your impulses and looking to higher spiritual goals, but are often a bastion of libertines with moralizing cliches that point to a delusion-based view of “spiritual freedom”
You may not moralize with cliches, but your posts are little more than moralization.

In Dharma, we use mirrors more than binoculars.
I try not to condemn others while trying bold to what I perceive to be objective, selfless, moral standards.

To the extent that I’m hypocritical or come across judgmental, I’ll take full personal responsibility for that.
Last edited by Heimdall on Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:45 pm
Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:40 pm
“New Age” groups tend to not be about having discipline over your impulses and looking to higher spiritual goals, but are often a bastion of libertines with moralizing cliches that point to a delusion-based view of “spiritual freedom”
You may not moralize with cliches, but your posts are little more than moralization.

In Dharma, we use mirrors more than binoculars.
I try not to condemn others while trying bold to what I perceive to be objective, selfless, moral standards.
You just spend five posts condemning Pope Francis. Don't be daft. You are not an arbiter of any moral standards, other than for yourself.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:48 pm
Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:45 pm

You may not moralize with cliches, but your posts are little more than moralization.

In Dharma, we use mirrors more than binoculars.
I try not to condemn others while trying bold to what I perceive to be objective, selfless, moral standards.
You just spend five posts condemning Pope Francis. Don't be daft.
Any “condemnation” was in response to people praising him in his qualities as a religious leader, which I disagreed with, especially people egging on his “ruffling the feathers” of conservative Catholics.

I don’t know him personally, maybe he would be a nice guy to have a Guinness with.
You are not an arbiter of any moral standards, other than for yourself.
We have the Buddha, the Sangha, and the Dharma.

Also, quite the pot calling the kettle black with the amount of Trump ad-hominems you post here.
boda
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by boda »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/opin ... yment.html

Whaddaya think?
I think that the bottom line is that Weber’s so called ‘iron cage’ of rationalization doesn’t promote well-being, is ultimately irrational, and we should all rebel against it.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

Yes, which is why for example the Lady of the Guadalupe was finally canonized in the 19th century...Nuestra Señora de la Santa Muerte is next:
“Our Lady of Guadalupe” even if it is a dressed up Mesoamerican goddess is still purported to be the Virgin Mary, just like all the statues in Europe and America that depict the Virgin Mary on Venus’s half sea shell.

That makes the syncretism consistent with their own religious tradition, unlike Pope Francis’s divisive actions.

Buddhism doesn’t have a “no idolatry” requirement (unless the gods are not a means to the end of Buddha) so it’s syncretism is a lot more permissive.

The Apostle Paul calls all the “Pagan gods” “demons”, so it only causes religiously devout people in that tradition anxiety and worry when a “Pagan god” is being honored. Even if Catholics are stuck in “wrong view”, I know many people are are hurt, upset, suicidal, and even having an existential crisis over this politically motivated affair (having been in that world), so that’s why I’m so sympathetic.

The actions, even if valid intentioned to raise concerns about the Native American needs, weren’t very mindful to the needs of many devout Catholics.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

Anyways

:focus:
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:59 pm
Yes, which is why for example the Lady of the Guadalupe was finally canonized in the 19th century...Nuestra Señora de la Santa Muerte is next:
“Our Lady of Guadalupe” even if it is a dressed up Mesoamerican goddess is still purported to be the Virgin Mary, just like all the statues in Europe and America that depict the Virgin Mary on Venus’s half sea shell.
Then why bother getting all worked up about such issues.
That makes the syncretism consistent with their own religious tradition, unlike Pope Francis’s divisive actions.
I am quite sure that in the long run, everyone will forget about the naysayers and the right wing nut jobs, and be perfectly content with Pachamama being respected in Catholic churches, and will consider Francis a great pope.

The Apostle Paul calls all the “Pagan gods” “demons”, so it only causes religiously devout people in that tradition anxiety and worry when a “Pagan god” is being honored
.

Paul was Jewish. So, not surprising. He was also a con artist.

Even if Catholics are stuck in “wrong view”, I know many people are are hurt, upset, suicidal, and even having an existential crisis over this politically motivated affair (having been in that world), so that’s why I’m so sympathetic.
In general, we Buddhists try to avoid encouraging attachment views. Supporting their attachment to views does not help them one bit.

The actions, even if valid intentioned to raise concerns about the Native American needs, weren’t very mindful to the needs of many devout Catholics.
And it was very mindful of the needs of many other Catholics, and potential converts. You forget, that old white guy in Italy is from South America, Argentina to be precise. I am sure he knows much better than you the situation among South American Catholics.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

In general, we Buddhists try to avoid encouraging attachment views. Supporting their attachment to views does not help them one bit.
I’m glad you’ve achieved perfect compassion and follow Buddhism both in its text and spirit.
Paul was Jewish. So, not surprising.


So was Jesus, and as Paul is the writer of most of the “New Testament”, it really shouldn’t be.
I am quite sure that in the long run, everyone will forget about the naysayers and the right wing nut jobs, and be perfectly content with Pachamama being respected in Catholic churches, and will consider Francis a great pope.
I’m quite sure Catholicism will be culturally abandoned (for better or worse - maybe if China invades America Buddhism will take root) except for a tiny portion of people who take it seriously.

But even assuming it not to be true, it will be a product of this time period, along with Arab depictions of Jesus and Dravidian depictions of the Buddha, just like Godspell Jesus and 15th century “French Maiden” depictions of the Virgin Mary.
iskaral
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by iskaral »

Culturally abandoned in South America? I doubt it.
Malcolm
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:34 pm

But even assuming it not to be true, it will be a product of this time period, along with Arab depictions of Jesus and Dravidian depictions of the Buddha, just like Godspell Jesus and 15th century “French Maiden” depictions of the Virgin Mary.
So why complain? It's just proliferation. Useless. Complain about something of substance.
Heimdall
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Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Heimdall »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:22 pm
Heimdall wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:34 pm

But even assuming it not to be true, it will be a product of this time period, along with Arab depictions of Jesus and Dravidian depictions of the Buddha, just like Godspell Jesus and 15th century “French Maiden” depictions of the Virgin Mary.
So why complain? It's just proliferation. Useless. Complain about something of substance.
Again, pot calling the kettle black. If you’re so confident that you will win in the end, why even bother posting everything you do?
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