REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

[Queequeg]

Pope Francis

I really like Francis. The fact that he chose to be called "Francis" speaks volumes. A pope who was once a bouncer at a bar? Sounds like someone who might have the experience to get "it".

I like him, too. Someone who worked with the poor in a developing nation, someone with a science background and real-world jobs before joining the priesthood.

Far too many church leaders, like far too many politicians, have never worked at a normal job or lived among normal people.


Kim

His remarks that the Church should be administering triage before moralizing were revolutionary. I hope he can make a lasting mark. The fact that conservative American Catholics are apoplectic about the guy signals that he's ruffling the right feathers.

To bring this back to the PWE - my dad who is of French Canadian and Irish descent and who was basically raised in a Catholic monastery from age 4-14 (a Catholic group home run by nuns) pokes fun at American Irish who he says have taken on too many of the bad habits of the Anglos and have basically become Protestants, including all that compulsive work ethic stuff. Its not that working hard is bad, but rather its the priorities. Conservative American Catholics have become individualistic and mean spirited which to him is completely at odds with the Church's teachings.

[narhwal90]

I'm not sure that blanket statements about American Catholics, conservative or otherwise is just. I volunteer with a number of them, men and women. A wide variety of attitudes are seen. Some can't bear to be around the folks coming in for food because folks drive up in a car and have a cellphone. Others dont care or serve anyway.

I like Francis also- and do know a few of the conservative Catholics who are apoplectic about him- I am in full agreement that he is ruffling the right feathers.

[Heimdall]

I will say that I still think that the "Protestant work ethic" is still wrong view.

The Calvinists, due to Predestination (God makes people to damn or save them), believed that affluence was a sign of God's Grace; the logic being that if God wanted to save you, he would show his love for you in this life by making your life more comfortable and safe; and you could demonstrate your moral predestination via hard work.

This led to a proto-culture where affluence, especially earned affluence, became equivalent with moral superiority, leading to our culture today (even if your spouse divorced you and you are working two jobs to support your family, if you aren't wealthy, you are just a loser who isn't trying hard enough).

Not to mention the idea that the earth was created and put here for us and that we can subdue it and all animals also allowed us to industrialize and create everything needed to destroy the earth and our climate completely at break neck speed, ushering in the sixth mass extinction. Had we kept the pagan gods we would not be here. Certain Romans (notably Paul, Augustus, etc.) are to blame for this civilization denying it's connection with the natural world.

Virgo

I disagree, I blame Scholastic theology as the "first cause" of the elimination of genuine spirituality rather than Christianity per se. Even Paul in Hebrews claims to have visited "The Three Heavens" and framed such visitation as a mark of spiritual superiority; and we can't neglect the Desert Fathers [Sayings of the Desert Fathers are good]

In Roman Catholicism, there was a debate that really had grease to the wheels in the 1100s [which manifested in a debate between Saint Bernard and Abelard] - about the superiority of Reason against Theoria [Contemplation] / Experience.

Unfortunately, with the advent of Thomas Aquinas [especially with Bonaventure buiding on Thomas], the former won out. The monastic / mystical "Theoria" aspect of Christianity became effectively hidden from Western consciousness when the Protestant Reformation hit, which was the culmination of Reason being more important than Experience.

Granted, even though religion transformed into a purely reason based experienced in the West for most, we still have to be thankful for scholasticism's development of the Western university. Without Catholic monks like Abelard, we wouldn't have Cambridge or Oxford.

[Heimdall]

I really like Francis. The fact that he chose to be called "Francis" speaks volumes. A pope who was once a bouncer at a bar? Sounds like someone who might have the experience to get "it".

I like him, too. Someone who worked with the poor in a developing nation, someone with a science background and real-world jobs before joining the priesthood.

Far too many church leaders, like far too many politicians, have never worked at a normal job or lived among normal people.


Kim

His remarks that the Church should be administering triage before moralizing were revolutionary. I hope he can make a lasting mark. The fact that conservative American Catholics are apoplectic about the guy signals that he's ruffling the right feathers.

I disagree.

Anyone who places political ideology over the spiritual well being of the laypeople deserves criticism.

Pope Francis's "Traditionis Custodes" encyclical was an incredibly negligent and selfish political maneuver.

He effectively tried to censor the Pre-Vatican II Catholic Mass - a movement that was growing in popularity among young people - for no other reason than to spite conservative members of the Church who were attracted to it. Even the Liberal members were taken aback by how negligent that action was.

[Heimdall]

I'm not sure that blanket statements about American Catholics, conservative or otherwise is just. I volunteer with a number of them, men and women. A wide variety of attitudes are seen. Some can't bear to be around the folks coming in for food because folks drive up in a car and have a cellphone. Others dont care or serve anyway.

[Malcolm]

Anyone who places political ideology over the spiritual well being of the laypeople deserves criticism.

Unless of course, that political ideology is judged to be in the best spiritual interest of the lay people.

Why do you privilege mundane religious ideology, such as Catholicism, over political ideology? They are two peas in a pod. They are both mundane. Neither can promise anything more than temporary happiness and contentment.

So, frankly, whether the Catholic mass is chanted in Latin, facing the alter, or chanted in the local language facing the congregation, should not matter one iota to a dharma practitioner. The only distinction that can possibly matter is that whatever mundane ideology one follows, political or religious, is that it renders one a more compassionate, caring person. Otherwise, it does not matter at all.

[Heimdall]

Had we kept the pagan gods we would not be here.

Most of what you lament about Christianity is only a consequence of its implementation in the Roman Imperial Structure. The Western world "civilizing the barbarians" is a theme that goes back to Julius Caesar himself in his conquest of the French and German "Barbarian" tribes.

[Malcolm]

Had we kept the pagan gods we would not be here.

Most of what you lament about Christianity is only a consequence of its implementation in the Roman Imperial Structure. The Western world "civilizing the barbarians" is a theme that goes back to Julius Caesar himself in his conquest of the French and German "Barbarian" tribes.

Then the opposite is also true: most of what you celebrate about Christianity goes back to a political structure embedded in Western Europe. So what was that you were saying viz spiritual vs. political ideologies? Hoisted on your petard again, I see.

[Queequeg]

I'm not sure that blanket statements about American Catholics, conservative or otherwise is just. I volunteer with a number of them, men and women. A wide variety of attitudes are seen. Some can't bear to be around the folks coming in for food because folks drive up in a car and have a cellphone. Others dont care or serve anyway.

Conservative American Catholics.

He was talking about the petit bourgeois Irish Catholics who think they've made it and have now become reactionary Republicans - typified by Fox news' Hannity and O'Reilly.

[Queequeg]

I like him, too. Someone who worked with the poor in a developing nation, someone with a science background and real-world jobs before joining the priesthood.

Far too many church leaders, like far too many politicians, have never worked at a normal job or lived among normal people.


Kim

His remarks that the Church should be administering triage before moralizing were revolutionary. I hope he can make a lasting mark. The fact that conservative American Catholics are apoplectic about the guy signals that he's ruffling the right feathers.

I disagree.

Anyone who places political ideology over the spiritual well being of the laypeople deserves criticism.

Pope Francis's "Traditionis Custodes" encyclical was an incredibly negligent and selfish political maneuver.

He effectively tried to censor the Pre-Vatican II Catholic Mass - a movement that was growing in popularity among young people - for no other reason than to spite conservative members of the Church who were attracted to it. Even the Liberal members were taken aback by how negligent that action was.

Silly.

His remarks about triage are precisely about well being of the laypeople over ideology.

You take a strange tack to criticize Francis. The Latin Mass devotees are creating a schism, aside from the fact that its become a cult of the reactionaries in the Church. The Church resolved to move in a certain direction with Vatican II. Francis was undoing a mess that Benedict, the Quitter (see the irony of that in this thread?), created.

[Malcolm]

typified by Fox news' Hannity and O'Reilly.

Who are in reality William F. Buckley wannabes, with a tenth of the wit and far less educated.

Ah the good old days, when conservatives were actually conservatives in the tradition of Burke, etc., rather than these shallow libertarians trying to pawn themselves off as conservatives.

[Heimdall]

Unless of course, that political ideology is judged to be in the best spiritual interest of the lay people.

Sure. I find Traditionis Custodes to not at all be in the best spiritual interests of the lay people. Even if the ends were just - prohibiting the growth of the "Rad Trads" who believe wearing leggings is mortally sinful, for example - he could've done so in a manner that wasn't so blunt and obviously ideologically motivated. The world's going to hell one day at a time, and the last thing we need in this spiritually void wasteland is a lack of compassion.

Why do you privilege mundane religious ideology, such as Catholicism, over political ideology? They are two peas in a pod. They are both mundane. Neither can promise anything more than temporary happiness and contentment.

I'm not, I'm prioritizing traditional religious praxis over the censorship of traditional religious praxis. In much the same way that Hindu meditation is better than no meditation at all, traditional Catholic praxis [liturgical chant, incense, solemnity, prayer, silence, and reflection] is better than no traditional religious praxis at all.

Plus, centuries old religious artwork and ritual is priceless, temporally speaking.

So, frankly, whether the Catholic mass is chanted in Latin, facing the alter, or chanted in the local language facing the congregation, should not matter one iota to a dharma practitioner. The only distinction that can possibly matter is that whatever mundane ideology one follows, political or religious, is that it renders one a more compassionate, caring person. Otherwise, it does not matter at all.

The words you say, the ideas you read, and the actions you do all have long term affects to your spiritual well being in the future. The whole idea of magical "curses" and "hexes" that superstitious people eons ago believed in might not have been all off the mark.

If you internalize certain ideas about yourself, beliefs about the world, and moral values, you will define your future in ways that you don't realize. If every day you convince yourself you are an unlovable social outcast, you will one day find all your social connections severed when you don't actively maintain those friendships and believe you are unworthy of love. If you convince yourself that you are a handsome stud that all the ladies desire, you will one day find a woman who is attracted to your confidence and personality.

That's one of the functions of religious praxis. It's an external, objective ideal that you can orient your life towards. So, frankly, liturgical chant, incense, silent meditation and prayer, solemnity, and moral / theological instruction does matter.

I say this as someone who was led to Buddhism through Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism; a lot of my praxis in those religions made me encounter some nasty things about myself - that I was pursuing Jesus for unearned moral superiority and out of hatred for my fellow man.

While Catholicism is flawed, it's a much better alternative compared to a cult or New Age praxis.

[Heimdall]

You take a strange tack to criticize Francis. The Latin Mass devotees are creating a schism, aside from the fact that its become a cult of the reactionaries in the Church. The Church resolved to move in a certain direction with Vatican II. Francis was undoing a mess that Benedict, the Quitter (see the irony of that in this thread?), created.

Projection. The Catholic Church has never been more divided than under this Papacy.
The "Rad Trad" devotees (which says nothing about the Latin Mass itself, only some of the people who attend that Mass) have been a thing since Pope John Paul II established the Ecclesia Dei commission and the FSSP out of compassion for those who preferred that form, and the Church was not nearly as divided under his Papacy (despite his flaws, not the least of which was malicious covering up of sexual child abuse - thanks for canonizing him Pope Francis, by the way).

Noting has been as disunifying as Pope Francis's decision to include Mother Earth worship in his Amazonian Synod.

[Malcolm]

That's one of the functions of religious praxis. It's an external, objective ideal that you can orient your life towards. So, frankly, liturgical chant, incense, silent meditation and prayer, solemnity, and moral / theological instruction does matter.

Anything based in wrong view, at best, might get you a birth as a hedonic deva, fated to fall in the hell realms when your merit is exhausted, your flowers fade, and your body begins to smell repellant to the other devas...

While Catholicism is flawed, it's a much better alternative compared to a cult or New Age praxis.

What is Catholicism, or Christianity in general, but a new religious cult that disrupted the Roman Empire, and spawned plenty of so-called new age movements, including the modern New Age?

Sorry, just not seeing it. I stand by my earlier statement, if your beliefs do not make you a more kind and compassionate person, they don't matter at all, chanting, incense and the whole lot (and this applies to Buddhism as well).

[Malcolm]

You take a strange tack to criticize Francis. The Latin Mass devotees are creating a schism, aside from the fact that its become a cult of the reactionaries in the Church. The Church resolved to move in a certain direction with Vatican II. Francis was undoing a mess that Benedict, the Quitter (see the irony of that in this thread?), created.

Projection. The Catholic Church has never been more divided than under this Papacy.

So what? What do Buddhists care about this?

Noting has been as disunifying as Pope Francis's decision to include Mother Earth worship in his Amazonian Synod.

Oh come on. Be serious. Luther? Two Popes? There have been plenty of fractious periods in the history of the Church. This is nothing compared to that. Plus, Catholicism has survived for centuries through syncretism. This is why Francis' incorporation of Pachamama is just par for the course.

[Virgo]

I think that's mostly true, but not entirely. For most of its history, Christianity has interpreted Genesis as giving us 'dominion' over the Earth and all that's in it. However, there's an alternative view which pops up from time to time, i.e. that God gave us 'stewardship' over the Earth and we have a responsibility to care for it. This, in fact, was the basis of Pope Francis' big environmental statement a few years ago, Laudato Si.

Stewardship is not possible without dominion.

And nor can you trust people to look after the Earth just because they are not Christian. What the Chinese have done to their country is really horrible, but Bali is an even better example: rubbish everywhere in spite of a deeply religious view of the chain of responsibility from the (Hindu) gods to families in the villages.

Kim

But your missing the point, what the Chinese have done to their country is a result of industrialization. Industrialization was not inevitable. It is a result of Christian ideology.

Virgo

[Heimdall]

Anything based in wrong view, at best, might get you a birth as a hedonic deva, fated to fall in the hell realms when your merit is exhausted, your flowers fade, and your body begins to smell repellant to the other devas...

"Amen" - but some wrong views are worse than others. It is better to be a Buddhist who is mistaken on the nature of the 5 Skandhas than it is to be a Nazi Occultist who sacrifices human beings to pictures of Hitler.

Sorry, just not seeing it. I stand by my earlier statement, if your beliefs do not make you a more kind and compassionate person, they don't matter at all, chanting, incense and the whole lot (and this applies to Buddhism as well).

If the Latin Mass has produced such compassionate "Saints" like Francis of Assisi, Bernard of Clairvoux, John of the Cross, John Bosco, or even Maximilian Kolbe, there probably is something good in the Latin Mass liturgical praxis that leads one there.

[Heimdall]

So what? What do Buddhists care about this?

What do Buddhists care about the Protestant Work Ethic?

Oh come on. Be serious. Luther? Two Popes? There have been plenty of fractious periods in the history of the Church. This is nothing compared to that.

Not internally. Luther and the Two Popes led to a split of organization.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that this Pope is incredibly divisive.

Plus, Catholicism has survived for centuries through syncretism. This is why Francis' incorporation of Pachamama is just par for the course.

Which is why it created such a scandal for the devouted members?
Plus, "syncretism" is a centuries long process, not a "shock" political maneuver.

[Malcolm]

"Amen" - but some wrong views are worse than others. It is better to be a Buddhist who is mistaken on the nature of the 5 Skandhas than it is to be a Nazi Occultist who sacrifices human beings to pictures of Hitler.

Agreed, some wrong views are not merely wrong, but perverse. This is why mahāsiddhas like Virupa went around India putting an end to practices of human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.

If the Latin Mass has produced such compassionate "Saints" like Francis of Assisi, Bernard of Clairvoux, John of the Cross, John Bosco, or even Maximilian Kolbe, there probably is something good in the Latin Mass liturgical praxis that leads one there.

I doubt it. How do you explain Torquemada? You place too much emphasis on external conditions, friend.

[Virgo]

Ministry of the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson. This book was discussed recently on the forum, and I finished it over the weekend...much food for thought. One of the nicer ideas was blockchaining all money, to eliminate fraud and tax evasion, as in no private transactions any more, etc.

I'll have to give this one a read when I am not exhausted. I am also mad at kindle at the moment because they got me last week with the one-click feature on amazon for a Gelug book that I actually wasn't too hot on. $14.99 later I have to read about all types of tenent systems and stuffs. What gives?

Virgo

Just contact them and tell them it was a mistake. They'll refund you immediately... are you being sarcastic?

Hi Q, it was just a jab at our consumer society and how it is promoted so heavily by the marketing departments of these companies. With one single click I've got the book in my Kindle reader. Is it my fault for clicking when I wasn't 100% sure I wanted the book? Yes, absolutely. But it also their fault for taking advantage of human proclivities, sort of like social media altering your feed to make sure you get a dopamine rush.

As to the part about the tenents systems, this is something Dzogchen practitioners might find slightly humorous, as our approach is very different.



Virgo