REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Queequeg »

Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/opin ... yment.html

Whaddaya think?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/opin ... yment.html

Whaddaya think?
Just make sure your parents are able or willing to let you move home.
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/opin ... yment.html

Whaddaya think?
I can't see the video, mostly because I try to avoid signing up to too many media outlets, but in general ...
• There isn't enough work around for everyone of working age to have a full-time job so none of us should feel morally obliged to work full time. Perhaps we should all work part-time or perhaps most of us should retire early so others don't starve. Either way, the PWE is redundant.
• What has the PWE ever done for the average worker? Mostly, I think, it gives the bosses another stick to beat the workers with.
* Who, here, is Protestant anyway? So why should we care about the PWE, let alone take it on board as an obligation?
- and all of those three points are independently valid, IMO.

At this point I would like to insert the beautiful little fable about the poor Mexican fisherman and the rich American tourist's career advice to him, but in true non-PWE fashion I'm going to hope someone else wil do it while I goof off instead. It's late here-now and I need some :zzz:

:namaste:
Kim
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:47 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/opin ... yment.html

Whaddaya think?
Just make sure your parents are able or willing to let you move home.
(Upper middle class and above) first world problems. What's a slacker to do?

NYT: the Uptown Worker's Daily.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
KristenM
Posts: 1335
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by KristenM »

“Maybe you don’t have a choice at all. In which case, I’m sorry you wasted five minutes watching this.”

Talk about privilege and being out of touch. Quit your job, unless you’re too poor. Then, never mind. Loser.
KristenM
Posts: 1335
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by KristenM »

From the comments:

“Dr. Freud, while not having much interest in suicide, or the desire therefor, did realize (accurately), that the desire to die or complete suicide, was the ultimate form of enlightenment.

For those wishing the aforementioned had the crystal clear clarity of knowledge that life is utterly pointless.

He admired but also lamented the fact that society considered someone ill for these thoughts, but in reality that this was the absolute truth.”

Reply10 Recommend

Hmm...ten people recommend this comment
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Queequeg »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:21 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/opin ... yment.html

Whaddaya think?
I can't see the video, mostly because I try to avoid signing up to too many media outlets, but in general ...
• There isn't enough work around for everyone of working age to have a full-time job so none of us should feel morally obliged to work full time. Perhaps we should all work part-time or perhaps most of us should retire early so others don't starve. Either way, the PWE is redundant.
• What has the PWE ever done for the average worker? Mostly, I think, it gives the bosses another stick to beat the workers with.
* Who, here, is Protestant anyway? So why should we care about the PWE, let alone take it on board as an obligation?
- and all of those three points are independently valid, IMO.

At this point I would like to insert the beautiful little fable about the poor Mexican fisherman and the rich American tourist's career advice to him, but in true non-PWE fashion I'm going to hope someone else wil do it while I goof off instead. It's late here-now and I need some :zzz:

:namaste:
Kim
The synopsis of the video: columnist uses Simon Biles withdrawal from the Tokyo Olympics as the pivot to discuss the "Great Resignation" that is going on now in the US. The GR is basically a massive game of musical chairs among Americans up and down the economic spectrum seeking out better ways to earn a living. At the wage end of the spectrum, there is a labor shortage. Restaurants, retail, transportation, warehousing, low skill medical, can't find enough people to fill the open positions. Republicans wring their hands, but not too much since segments of the populist base are benefiting, that the pandemic era benefits were too generous and made people lazy, while Democrats are celebrating the new bargaining power of labor that will drive up wages. At higher rungs on the economic ladder, people are playing musical chairs with jobs, or changing careers or striking out to start new businesses. The columnist points out that just sticking out jobs you are not happy with just because you feel obligated to gut it out is not admirable but actually the cowardly thing to do, and to break with a situation that is not working for you, to find a better situation is actually the heroic thing to do.

Its not actually a revolt against the PWE because it doesn't go anywhere near Church of Bob or Bartleby the Scrivener type ethics. It just celebrates, "You can do better!"
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Queequeg »

KristenM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:50 pm From the comments:

“Dr. Freud, while not having much interest in suicide, or the desire therefor, did realize (accurately), that the desire to die or complete suicide, was the ultimate form of enlightenment.

For those wishing the aforementioned had the crystal clear clarity of knowledge that life is utterly pointless.

He admired but also lamented the fact that society considered someone ill for these thoughts, but in reality that this was the absolute truth.”

Reply10 Recommend

Hmm...ten people recommend this comment
If we consider that modern society is basically founded on materialist assumptions, then the best ethos one could aspire to is Existentialism with its embrace of absurdity, but that takes a deep sense of humor. For most people, who don't manage to conjure some limited meaning of life through faith, self-deception, etc., it tends to nihilism, which certainly tends to one possible conclusion that suicide is a reasonable choice.

Everyone knows things are f'ed up. Everyone fundamentally gets dukkha. Everyone wants to end it.

Incidentally, there is another opinion column in the NYT today by Tom Edsall discussing why conservatives are happier than liberals - the short of it is that conservatives accept the way things are while liberals fret over everything that's wrong.

There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Natan »

This is a global phenom...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/22/opin ... -rest.html

Young Chinese are opting out of the work force due to poor working conditions as well. Maybe something good will come out of this generation's sense of entitlement. More equality and better conditions would be a good thing.

Here in Brazil I know bosses are very erratic, demanding and abusive. There are very few protections. Most people I know say they do the job of three people and the most common "good salary" is about $400/mo, but most are making $200. They still drive cars and buy clothes, take vacations, and appear near middle class. There's free healthcare, but most are deeply in debt. The stress and impatience people have is pronounced.

And still many young folks, especially young women, opt out of work and turn to sugar daddies. It's a much faster track to real money. Young men hustle in a 1000 ways. At least they don't have to put up with abuse.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Queequeg »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:54 pm This is a global phenom...
If people have enough to eat and a roof over their head and that becomes the baseline, people start asking, "Why am I doing this work thing again?"

"I would prefer not to."
-Bartleby

This freaks Republicans out. Their response is, "Life is too easy. Turn up the suffering", from the comfort of their seat on a private jet.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:32 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:54 pm This is a global phenom...
If people have enough to eat and a roof over their head and that becomes the baseline, people start asking, "Why am I doing this work thing again?"

"I would prefer not to."
-Bartleby

This freaks Republicans out. Their response is, "Life is too easy. Turn up the suffering", from the comfort of their seat on a private jet.
Ministry of the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson. This book was discussed recently on the forum, and I finished it over the weekend...much food for thought. One of the nicer ideas was blockchaining all money, to eliminate fraud and tax evasion, as in no private transactions any more, etc.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:41 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:32 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:54 pm This is a global phenom...
If people have enough to eat and a roof over their head and that becomes the baseline, people start asking, "Why am I doing this work thing again?"

"I would prefer not to."
-Bartleby

This freaks Republicans out. Their response is, "Life is too easy. Turn up the suffering", from the comfort of their seat on a private jet.
Ministry of the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson. This book was discussed recently on the forum, and I finished it over the weekend...much food for thought. One of the nicer ideas was blockchaining all money, to eliminate fraud and tax evasion, as in no private transactions any more, etc.
That would require states to intervene and make their blockchain currency the only legal tender, wouldn't it? Sounds like a good idea. I imagine the new tax havens would be jurisdictions without such traceable currency.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14456
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:41 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:32 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:54 pm This is a global phenom...
If people have enough to eat and a roof over their head and that becomes the baseline, people start asking, "Why am I doing this work thing again?"

"I would prefer not to."
-Bartleby

This freaks Republicans out. Their response is, "Life is too easy. Turn up the suffering", from the comfort of their seat on a private jet.
Ministry of the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson. This book was discussed recently on the forum, and I finished it over the weekend...much food for thought. One of the nicer ideas was blockchaining all money, to eliminate fraud and tax evasion, as in no private transactions any more, etc.
Thought occurred to me... this is fiction, but its managed to stimulate your thinking on real world issues... kind of like science fiction sutras, huh? :shrug:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Archie2009
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Archie2009 »

In a sense being disabled and found unfit for work was a godsend for me. In terms of having a social life it's proved a major obstacle (autism), but I was always a loner anyway. I don't miss the mental exhaustion of unceasing human interaction.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:12 pm That would require states to intervene and make their blockchain currency the only legal tender, wouldn't it? Sounds like a good idea. I imagine the new tax havens would be jurisdictions without such traceable currency.
Read the book, if you haven't. It's compelling for its ideas, if not its writing (the editor is atrocious and should be fired).
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

Archie2009 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:25 pm In a sense being disabled and found unfit for work was a godsend for me. In terms of having a social life it's proved a major obstacle (autism), but I was always a loner anyway. I don't miss the mental exhaustion of unceasing human interaction.
One needn't be autistic to find unceasing human interaction exhausting...I find it pretty exhausting myself.
dharmafootsteps
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:57 am

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:41 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:32 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:54 pm This is a global phenom...
If people have enough to eat and a roof over their head and that becomes the baseline, people start asking, "Why am I doing this work thing again?"

"I would prefer not to."
-Bartleby

This freaks Republicans out. Their response is, "Life is too easy. Turn up the suffering", from the comfort of their seat on a private jet.
Ministry of the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson. This book was discussed recently on the forum, and I finished it over the weekend...much food for thought. One of the nicer ideas was blockchaining all money, to eliminate fraud and tax evasion, as in no private transactions any more, etc.
You’re coming round to blockchains?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:42 pm You’re coming round to blockchains?
I never said I was against blockchain. I simple don't regard it as the panacea that some people do. If you recall, I very specifically said it was useful for such things as tracking shipments, etc. In this case, it would require that the major central banks coordinated the major world currencies, the dollar, yuan, euro, etc., in such a way that any currencies not in the system would simply be worthless. Drug traffic would dry up overnight. Taxes would be paid. Everyone's transactions would be open to public scrutiny by anyone anywhere.
KristenM
Posts: 1335
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by KristenM »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:06 pm
KristenM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:50 pm From the comments:

“Dr. Freud, while not having much interest in suicide, or the desire therefor, did realize (accurately), that the desire to die or complete suicide, was the ultimate form of enlightenment.

For those wishing the aforementioned had the crystal clear clarity of knowledge that life is utterly pointless.

He admired but also lamented the fact that society considered someone ill for these thoughts, but in reality that this was the absolute truth.”

Reply10 Recommend

Hmm...ten people recommend this comment
If we consider that modern society is basically founded on materialist assumptions, then the best ethos one could aspire to is Existentialism with its embrace of absurdity, but that takes a deep sense of humor. For most people, who don't manage to conjure some limited meaning of life through faith, self-deception, etc., it tends to nihilism, which certainly tends to one possible conclusion that suicide is a reasonable choice.

Everyone knows things are f'ed up. Everyone fundamentally gets dukkha. Everyone wants to end it.

Incidentally, there is another opinion column in the NYT today by Tom Edsall discussing why conservatives are happier than liberals - the short of it is that conservatives accept the way things are while liberals fret over everything that's wrong.

True. The video does seem to be more about quitting jobs that you can’t stand and finding more rewarding endeavors than just quitting. That we should all be able to do.

And then you read the recent article in the NYT about rents going up enormously and a lack of affordable housing nationwide. Maybe we can figure out some solutions to making life more liveable for the average Joe. What I see in my community is the adults are so poor that their teens are sick of (hyperbole alert) living in a one-bedroom apartment with no money to eat out or go anywhere, so they are taking fast food jobs to make some cash because they aren’t getting it from their parents and then dreaming of going to college. Anyhow, it’s complicated.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: REBEL! Down with the Protestant Work Ethic!

Post by Malcolm »

KristenM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:54 pm

And then you read the recent article in the NYT about rents going up enormously and a lack of affordable housing nationwide. Maybe we can figure out some solutions to making life more liveable for the average Joe. What I see in my community is the adults are so poor that their teens are sick of (hyperbole alert) living in a one-bedroom apartment with no money to eat out or go anywhere, so they are taking fast food jobs to make some cash because they aren’t getting it from their parents and then dreaming of going to college. Anyhow, it’s complicated.
How about convincing W. Va and AZ to replace Manchin and Sinema with a reasonable progressive Democrat? Not likely...They are totally the spoilers, they may as well join the GOP.
Locked

Return to “Lounge”