Any thoughts on web 3?

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Natan
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Natan »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:39 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:06 am
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:12 am This board has been pretty hard on crypto/blockchain from what I’ve seen. I’ve been skeptical/agnostic on it myself, but am starting to see an inkling of positive and practical use in web 3 and decentralized apps.

This tweet from Naval Ravikant sums it up:


Anyone else geeky enough to have an opinion on this stuff?
Actually that's what they promised about web 2, that it would be open source and private. Remember Linux? It's not the internet that's the problem. It's government and laws. Corporations have one incentive, to profit. Computers can't change that. Only guns and bombs will change that.
Government's job is to regulate this stuff. The Leviathan already has the guns and bombs. The problem is, the people in government just aren't as smart as the people in the private sector, so the best they could do is play whackamole, but even this is beyond our representatives. Its a different skill set that gets you elected.

Gotta think of the profit motive like sunlight to a plant. A plant will squeeze through any opening, twist itself into any shape, just to get to the sunlight. Actually, Matt Taibbi's description of Goldman Sachs is probably the appropriate image - a" great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money." That describes just about every major corporation. If it did anything less, it would be shirking its fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders.
Well it was deregulation that created a Goldman Sachs. There was a policy shift that funnelled money out of government and into corporations. At one time the US government had all the brightest minds. That's how they beat Hitler to the nuke. A Hitler today would have an easy time. But I have seen small bands use guns to fend off the federal government and paramilitary corporations. It happened in Nevada. An armed population is impossible to control. The only thing holding everyone back is everyone else. There's no consensus. But that can change. Violence is still the killer app.
Natan
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Natan »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:41 pm I think you’re conflating a few things here.
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:06 am Actually that's what they promised about web 2, that it would be open source and private.
Not sure where you’re getting that from but I haven’t heard that before. Web 2 was about web as a platform (i.e. applications that run on the web rather than the desktop), user generated content. It fulfilled that, hence you and I posting here.
Remember Linux?
Linux is alive and well, not sure of its relevance in this context.
It's not the internet that's the problem. It's government and laws. Corporations have one incentive, to profit. Computers can't change that. Only guns and bombs will change that.
Although there’s a political aspect to web 3 (just like web 2, probably more so), this is primarily about technology in my eyes, not politics. Web 2 entirely changed the way we use the internet, whatever our politics is, the web 3 proponents are suggesting that is going to happen again.

“Users own their data, contributors own the platform, and the code is open” is a new set of promises from my perspective. Current web architecture has code run from a central server, with a central database, the point in web 3 is this would no longer be the case. For example, however incentivised by profit a web 3 social network might be, they simply wouldn’t have a centralised database to allow the sort of business model Facebook currently uses, and anyone could inspect the code. This is baked into the architecture, it’s a different thing from open source, i.e. developers choosing to share a copy of their source code.
Not sure how old you are, but open source was meant to free the internet from corporate control, and that didn't work.
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Queequeg
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Queequeg »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:35 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:11 pm I’m still very much on the fence about whether web 3 will take off at all, and whether it will have a positive impact if it does, but I think there’s quite a lot of misunderstanding in the thread so far, which doesn’t lead to any meaningful discussion.
Web 3 is Web 2. There is no significantly new technology here. Blockchain is old tech, and not efficient.

The basic OSI model is still the same, really the only difference now is that the physical layer has gone wireless, but the data link layer, the network layer, etc. are still based on TCP/IP.
Right, if you go far enough down it's the same technology, but what's new is building on top of the blockchain isn't it? We're only on cusp of that. Currently if I want to engage with a web application it's running on a remote server with a remote database locked away by the corporation that owns it. With web3 the applications runs on decentralised networks that the users participate in, those participants of the network own it and are involved in its governance. If it's profit making, they are the recipients, not a single centralised corporation. In fact it all sounds rather socialist no?

Whether this vision will be pulled off or not I don't know, but if it does it would seem that it will radically changes things. Imagine all the users of Facebook owned it, voted on its use, decided if it was going to use paid advertising for example, and if so receive the benefits of that revenue between them.
I'm not a tech person, but I've heard this talk before - back in the 90s as the internet was taking off. In the end, the people who care the most are going to end up running it, and the people who care the most, aside from the idealists who are a small minority, are the people who stand to extract profit. They will configure it as it serves them before anyone catches on to what's happening.

keep you eye on the ball

There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Malcolm »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:35 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:11 pm I’m still very much on the fence about whether web 3 will take off at all, and whether it will have a positive impact if it does, but I think there’s quite a lot of misunderstanding in the thread so far, which doesn’t lead to any meaningful discussion.
Web 3 is Web 2. There is no significantly new technology here. Blockchain is old tech, and not efficient.

The basic OSI model is still the same, really the only difference now is that the physical layer has gone wireless, but the data link layer, the network layer, etc. are still based on TCP/IP.
Right, if you go far enough down it's the same technology, but what's new is building on top of the blockchain isn't it?
TCP/IP is already a kind of blockchain. You sent data out in packets with unique ids, they find the fastest route to the target, and the data layer reassembles the packets, etc., until its presented to the the user.
We're only on cusp of that. Currently if I want to engage with a web application it's running on a remote server with a remote database locked away by the corporation that owns it. With web3 the applications runs on decentralised networks that the users participate in, those participants of the network own it and are involved in its governance. If it's profit making, they are the recipients, not a single centralised corporation. In fact it all sounds rather socialist no?
The problem is, as been discussed elsewhere, is the trust issue. Corporations are never going to trust anonymous users to maintain data integrity of the block chain database. Blockchain might be useful for supply chains, but only if controlled by the suppliers and distributors themselves.
Whether this vision will be pulled off or not I don't know, but if it does it would seem that it will radically changes things. Imagine all the users of Facebook owned it, voted on its use, decided if it was going to use paid advertising for example, and if so receive the benefits of that revenue between them.
For this reason alone, your vision is a pipe dream. Or maybe, bong dream is more apropos these days, since no one smokes opium anymore.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by narhwal90 »

TCP/IP isn't really the point anymore- that was over in the old GOSIP IP fights in the 80's/90's. TCP/IP is how you get the proprietary data from your PC to the cloud system. You can see the packets, but have no visibility into the encrypted contents which is where the money is. Ideally, from the cloud standpoint, your browser is nothing more than a dumb terminal (which gets its data via TCP/IP) and all the $$$ brains is built into the cloud provider system which neither the end-user or the entrprise systems they are interacting with get to see. The big win for the cloud people is to make you use their own proprietary apps and api's on your PC/mobile- then they have complete control over your data.

Maybe the de-centralization move would be a unified/open (for some value of the word) cloud API, but how to move your enterprise data from AWS to Google without paying BIG $$$$.

But theres no going back from the cloud at this point- folks are always ready to sacrifice independence for lower cost right now.
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Queequeg
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:13 pm For this reason alone, your vision is a pipe dream. Or maybe, bong dream is more apropos these days, since no one smokes opium anymore.
Is that where that expression comes from? Huh.

Vape dream. You only have to change two letters.

Do kids even know what a bong is these days?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:10 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:41 pm I think you’re conflating a few things here.
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:06 am Actually that's what they promised about web 2, that it would be open source and private.
Not sure where you’re getting that from but I haven’t heard that before. Web 2 was about web as a platform (i.e. applications that run on the web rather than the desktop), user generated content. It fulfilled that, hence you and I posting here.
Remember Linux?
Linux is alive and well, not sure of its relevance in this context.
It's not the internet that's the problem. It's government and laws. Corporations have one incentive, to profit. Computers can't change that. Only guns and bombs will change that.
Although there’s a political aspect to web 3 (just like web 2, probably more so), this is primarily about technology in my eyes, not politics. Web 2 entirely changed the way we use the internet, whatever our politics is, the web 3 proponents are suggesting that is going to happen again.

“Users own their data, contributors own the platform, and the code is open” is a new set of promises from my perspective. Current web architecture has code run from a central server, with a central database, the point in web 3 is this would no longer be the case. For example, however incentivised by profit a web 3 social network might be, they simply wouldn’t have a centralised database to allow the sort of business model Facebook currently uses, and anyone could inspect the code. This is baked into the architecture, it’s a different thing from open source, i.e. developers choosing to share a copy of their source code.
Not sure how old you are, but open source was meant to free the internet from corporate control, and that didn't work.
I was alive, but admittedly I was too young to be paying attention, so I didn't hear the rhetoric around it at the time. I'm sure there was hype, but ultimately open source till now has simply meant you choose to share your code, that's great, there's lots of benefits and many people do, others of course don't.

The difference with web3 is you have to share your code, that's how these decentralised apps work. Maybe none of this comes to fruition, but if it becomes the dominant model, the way web 2 did, then maybe that would be the actualization of the promises made at the start of the open source movement.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Malcolm »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:20 pm The difference with web3 is you have to share your code...
And the companies like Apple will take it and incorporate it into their products. Case in point: MacOS is based on FreeBSD. I am sure the unix boys who wrote it are regretting it.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:13 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:35 pm

Web 3 is Web 2. There is no significantly new technology here. Blockchain is old tech, and not efficient.

The basic OSI model is still the same, really the only difference now is that the physical layer has gone wireless, but the data link layer, the network layer, etc. are still based on TCP/IP.
Right, if you go far enough down it's the same technology, but what's new is building on top of the blockchain isn't it?
TCP/IP is already a kind of blockchain. You sent data out in packets with unique ids, they find the fastest route to the target, and the data layer reassembles the packets, etc., until its presented to the the user.
We're only on cusp of that. Currently if I want to engage with a web application it's running on a remote server with a remote database locked away by the corporation that owns it. With web3 the applications runs on decentralised networks that the users participate in, those participants of the network own it and are involved in its governance. If it's profit making, they are the recipients, not a single centralised corporation. In fact it all sounds rather socialist no?
The problem is, as been discussed elsewhere, is the trust issue. Corporations are never going to trust anonymous users to maintain data integrity of the block chain database. Blockchain might be useful for supply chains, but only if controlled by the suppliers and distributors themselves.
Whether this vision will be pulled off or not I don't know, but if it does it would seem that it will radically changes things. Imagine all the users of Facebook owned it, voted on its use, decided if it was going to use paid advertising for example, and if so receive the benefits of that revenue between them.
For this reason alone, your vision is a pipe dream. Or maybe, bong dream is more apropos these days, since no one smokes opium anymore.
Perhaps it is a bong dream, but for now it's not my vision. I ignored the crypto stuff for years, but with the number of knowledgable people getting onboard it's getting harder not to pay attention, so now I'm simply observing a little more closely what these people are saying and doing. The only real push back I see in the tech community by now comes from the incumbents, the engineers on fat salaries at FAANG companies, but even a lot of them are onboard (just not the ownership). Most of the negativity I see comes from politicians, big banks and corporations etc. If it's undermining them then that's potentially interesting in my book.

Of course, if governments and corporations (tech or otherwise) are against it, perhaps it won't go anywhere, but when many of the smartest engineers are focused on building things these people have been bypassed before.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:20 pm The difference with web3 is you have to share your code...
And the companies like Apple will take it and incorporate it into their products. Case in point: MacOS is based on FreeBSD. I am sure the unix boys who wrote it are regretting it.
Then all the users of whatever they're incorporating will still share the profits.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by narhwal90 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:20 pm The difference with web3 is you have to share your code...
And the companies like Apple will take it and incorporate it into their products. Case in point: MacOS is based on FreeBSD. I am sure the unix boys who wrote it are regretting it.
It is an alarming trainwreck inside. I ran an file/email server on MacOS for a while, for a small independent business- each successive OS update would subtly break things; there is a tremendous amount of undocumented magic stuff that happens with little regard to backwards compatibility. I eventually punted all the server functions over to a Linux box w/ raid and have lived a calmer and more peaceful life ever since.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Malcolm »

narhwal90 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:20 pm The difference with web3 is you have to share your code...
And the companies like Apple will take it and incorporate it into their products. Case in point: MacOS is based on FreeBSD. I am sure the unix boys who wrote it are regretting it.
It is an alarming trainwreck inside. I ran an file/email server on MacOS for a while, for a small independent business- each successive OS update would subtly break things; there is a tremendous amount of undocumented magic stuff that happens with little regard to backwards compatibility. I eventually punted all the server functions over to a Linux box w/ raid and have lived a calmer and more peaceful life ever since.
To a hammer, everything is a nail.

But these days, I would not bother running an in-house mail server.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by narhwal90 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:42 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 pm

And the companies like Apple will take it and incorporate it into their products. Case in point: MacOS is based on FreeBSD. I am sure the unix boys who wrote it are regretting it.
It is an alarming trainwreck inside. I ran an file/email server on MacOS for a while, for a small independent business- each successive OS update would subtly break things; there is a tremendous amount of undocumented magic stuff that happens with little regard to backwards compatibility. I eventually punted all the server functions over to a Linux box w/ raid and have lived a calmer and more peaceful life ever since.
To a hammer, everything is a nail.

But these days, I would not bother running an in-house mail server.
It has its tradeoffs- a local imap server makes a pretty good workgroup system, and helpful when there is no occasion to trust storage on an ISP or other hosting operation eg gmail- even if for no other reason than intermittent internet connectivity. Its also helps with the firewall profile; if the email server is the only system able to transfer email then workstation access can be better controlled. Clearly its not going to stop a webmail system, but the point is to operate the institutional email system independently. Even in cases where the email system is communicating with gmail or some other mail account, the local email server can strip messages out of the ISP's account which reduces its value for webmail- particularly when contacts are derived from the local email spool.

It also permits very fine control over inboxes and inbound/outbound message processing, to augment ISP spam controls and outbound archival among other things.
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Queequeg
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Queequeg »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:20 pm The difference with web3 is you have to share your code...
And the companies like Apple will take it and incorporate it into their products. Case in point: MacOS is based on FreeBSD. I am sure the unix boys who wrote it are regretting it.
Then all the users of whatever they're incorporating will still share the profits.
if you want a share of the profits, buy shares of FAANGs.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I can tell you how things go when there is a pile of money to be made, and it never works out to kumbaya.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:29 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 pm

And the companies like Apple will take it and incorporate it into their products. Case in point: MacOS is based on FreeBSD. I am sure the unix boys who wrote it are regretting it.
Then all the users of whatever they're incorporating will still share the profits.
if you want a share of the profits, buy shares of FAANGs.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I can tell you how things go when there is a pile of money to be made, and it never works out to kumbaya.
Here’s a primer: https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/what-is-web3/
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Queequeg
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Queequeg »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:38 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:29 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:34 pm

Then all the users of whatever they're incorporating will still share the profits.
if you want a share of the profits, buy shares of FAANGs.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I can tell you how things go when there is a pile of money to be made, and it never works out to kumbaya.
Here’s a primer: https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/what-is-web3/
Its not necessary to know... that's the point. A coder who doesn't know how to take their enterprise public is just someone in their garage with a nice idea. When all is said and done, the money will flow as it usually does in our society - into the pockets of the ones who understand money - and the utopian dreams will go down the toilet as they always have. MBAs have been diverted from the investment banks out to Silicon Valley over the last generation, just as they were diverted to the oil fields of Texas a couple generations ago, but wherever there are piles of money, its the same cohort that insinuates themselves and figures out how to control it.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by Queequeg »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:32 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:38 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:29 pm

if you want a share of the profits, buy shares of FAANGs.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I can tell you how things go when there is a pile of money to be made, and it never works out to kumbaya.
Here’s a primer: https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/what-is-web3/
Its not necessary to know... that's the point. A coder who doesn't know how to take their enterprise public is just someone in their garage with a nice idea. When all is said and done, the money will flow as it usually does in our society - into the pockets of the ones who understand money - and the utopian dreams will go down the toilet as they always have. MBAs have been diverted from the investment banks out to Silicon Valley over the last generation, just as they were diverted to the oil fields of Texas a couple generations ago, but wherever there are piles of money, its the same cohort that insinuates themselves and figures out how to control it.
The broader point is - all these utopian dreams of some technology that will miraculously save us from enslavement are as silly as Q-Anon.

If we want a society where we don't want to be ripped off and exploited, then we need to act collectively through government. This is why it is critical to elect people who will advance just policies and pass just laws.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:32 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:38 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:29 pm

if you want a share of the profits, buy shares of FAANGs.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I can tell you how things go when there is a pile of money to be made, and it never works out to kumbaya.
Here’s a primer: https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/what-is-web3/
Its not necessary to know... that's the point. A coder who doesn't know how to take their enterprise public is just someone in their garage with a nice idea. When all is said and done, the money will flow as it usually does in our society - into the pockets of the ones who understand money - and the utopian dreams will go down the toilet as they always have. MBAs have been diverted from the investment banks out to Silicon Valley over the last generation, just as they were diverted to the oil fields of Texas a couple generations ago, but wherever there are piles of money, its the same cohort that insinuates themselves and figures out how to control it.
It’s not necessary to know, but it’s not necessary to know how to code at all, or even to know anything about the internet. That doesn’t mean it’s not useful to learn these things for some people. Curious why you’re engaging if you’ve no interest in even understanding what’s being discussed.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:45 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:32 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:38 pm

Here’s a primer: https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/what-is-web3/
Its not necessary to know... that's the point. A coder who doesn't know how to take their enterprise public is just someone in their garage with a nice idea. When all is said and done, the money will flow as it usually does in our society - into the pockets of the ones who understand money - and the utopian dreams will go down the toilet as they always have. MBAs have been diverted from the investment banks out to Silicon Valley over the last generation, just as they were diverted to the oil fields of Texas a couple generations ago, but wherever there are piles of money, its the same cohort that insinuates themselves and figures out how to control it.
The broader point is - all these utopian dreams of some technology that will miraculously save us from enslavement are as silly as Q-Anon.

If we want a society where we don't want to be ripped off and exploited, then we need to act collectively through government. This is why it is critical to elect people who will advance just policies and pass just laws.
Not sure if the utopian comments are coming from what I’ve said, or from a broader understanding of what people are trying to do with web 3, but I’m not sure they’re warranted. Perhaps I leant too heavily on the positive possibilities.

I don’t think web 3 is supposed to be a utopian dream, at least from my current understanding, but simply an important and impactful shift such as web 1 to web 2. That shift is what enables us to discuss Buddhadharma on this forum, it’s what has allowed us to receive teachings from our teachers all over the world.
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Re: Any thoughts on web 3?

Post by narhwal90 »

One thing for sure people are not going to host web3 apps themselves, but on the various clouds. Guess which companies are going to get a % of every micropayment that goes anywhere, and gets the surveillance of every transaction with every user. To me this looks like market consolidation with a fancy mobile interface.
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