Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Sādhaka
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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PeterC wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:22 am
KristenM wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:34 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:14 am I got the paywall party
You don’t subscribe to the NY Times? Probably too mainstream for your tastes. :)
Fox News or no news. Got to have the twenty-four hour torrent of truth from your TV


Throw your black Saturn cube/kubrick 2001 space odyssey monolith in the garbage.

Unless you’re a little bored, and want to watch something like Naruto Shippuden every once in awhile; or better yet a Dharma documentary. :ugeek:
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
KristenM
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Archie2009
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

Post by Archie2009 »

KristenM wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:37 pm Interesting take on "Wokeness."

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... mcwhorter/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/opin ... ation.html

Hope you don't get a paywall.
John McWhorter talks sense. Some people here have got partisan horse blinders on, however.
Malcolm
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

Post by Malcolm »

Archie2009 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:51 pm
KristenM wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:37 pm Interesting take on "Wokeness."

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... mcwhorter/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/opin ... ation.html

Hope you don't get a paywall.
John McWhorter talks sense. Some people here have got partisan horse blinders on, however.
Well, how are white only covenants in deeds all over the United States not systemic racism?

How is the gradual defunding of public schools in North Carolina, etc., after desegregation, and the rise of private white only schools posing as Christian academies not systemic racism?

His thesis, that some disparities we see may originate in the sociology of Black people, may be true, however, how can he claim that very sociology was not formed by the deeply racist, post-reconstruction period in the US? Long and short of it, he can’t.

The arguments for systemic racism in America are far stronger than those against. But I know white people, Bill Maher, etc., take comfort in the soothing words of the few Black intellectuals who seek to disarm its more serious implications. Indeed, Friday, Bill was going off about wokeness again with George Will, and just repeated Fox News talking points. He was pretty unhappy his other guest, Christina Bellantoni pushed back hard against his assertions. He also, cluelessly, went off on the so-called Black national anthem, forgetting that the original poem on which our national anthem is based, explicitly supports slavery.

Btw,, the Queen is a BLM supporter.
Archie2009
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

Post by Archie2009 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:12 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:51 pm
KristenM wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:37 pm Interesting take on "Wokeness."

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... mcwhorter/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/opin ... ation.html

Hope you don't get a paywall.
John McWhorter talks sense. Some people here have got partisan horse blinders on, however.
Well, how are white only covenants in deeds all over the United States not systemic racism?

How is the gradual defunding of public schools in North Carolina, etc., after desegregation, and the rise of private white only schools posing as Christian academies not systemic racism?

His thesis, that some disparities we see may originate in the sociology of Black people, may be true, however, how can he claim that very sociology was not formed by the deeply racist, post-reconstruction period in the US? Long and short of it, he can’t.

The arguments for systemic racism in America are far stronger than those against. But I know white people, Bill Maher, etc., take comfort in the soothing words of the few Black intellectuals who seek to disarm its more serious implications. Indeed, Friday, Bill was going off about wokeness again with George Will, and just repeated Fox News talking points. He was pretty unhappy his other guest, Christina Bellantoni pushed back hard against his assertions. He also, cluelessly, went off on the so-called Black national anthem, forgetting that the original poem on which our national anthem is based, explicitly supports slavery.

Btw,, the Queen is a BLM supporter.
Malcolm, John McWhorter does not deny the existence of systemic racism. (I watched the following video a couple of months ago and saved it, so I'm just going to post the link here. I might rewatch it this afternoon.)



The British Queen 'came out' as a BLM supporter. How folxy. Laughable.
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Archie2009 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:19 pm Malcolm, John McWhorter does not deny the existence of systemic racism. (I watched the following video a couple of months ago and saved it, so I'm just going to post the link here. I might rewatch it this afternoon.)
I am aware. My point was that people like Bill M use his critiques as a basis for undermining a CRT, etc., as a whole.
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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https://apple.news/A_wcCngKiTTaSIbBR_qKuvw
Thomas Schramm, who graduated fromHarvard-Westlake last spring, believes the woke/anti-woke debate is “more of a parent problem than a student problem. Parents who didn’t necessarily know what was being taught, or who didn’t understand what was being taught, reached their own conclusions,” Schramm says. “A lot of this is students who are on Zoom at home, their parents are in the same room with them, and they’re hearing a lot of this information that’s being taught to their kids, and they might not get the full context of what’s going on.”
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

Post by KristenM »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:24 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:19 pm Malcolm, John McWhorter does not deny the existence of systemic racism. (I watched the following video a couple of months ago and saved it, so I'm just going to post the link here. I might rewatch it this afternoon.)
I am aware. My point was that people like Bill M use his critiques as a basis for undermining a CRT, etc., as a whole.
Bill Maher is super annoying and unfunny imo. That said, just because Fox News or Bill M., gets a hold of an idea and attempts to reject the whole CRT by criticizing its parts doesn’t make all the parts true or untrue. One thing I would like to see is people on every side stop pretending as if their side doesn’t have any valid criticisms of itself. To me it’s a big flaw in American politics.
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

Post by Archie2009 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:24 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:19 pm Malcolm, John McWhorter does not deny the existence of systemic racism. (I watched the following video a couple of months ago and saved it, so I'm just going to post the link here. I might rewatch it this afternoon.)
I am aware. My point was that people like Bill M use his critiques as a basis for undermining a CRT, etc., as a whole.
CRT, Intersectionality, Queer Theory, Fat Studies, etc are not serious subjects. They are unscientific postmodernism infused BS. And divisive. And, yes, often racist or lead to racism.

I've read one of Ibram X. Kendi's books and he's a lightweight. Read his tweets and hear him speak, and the only conclusion is he's an idiot.
Judith Butler is a very wordy idiot. Not outright dumb like Kendi, but definitely writing for the gullible.

Their strategy is to get you to accept their BS postmodern ideologies uncritically in the name of fighting racism, rights for trans people, etc. That's what the pressure to repeat slogans like e.g. "trans rights are human rights" is meant to achieve. They get you to ignore or accept the unscientific nonsense at the heart of the ideology. Chant the slogan or else you're Tucker Carlson! Cisgender really means oppressor and only an idiot would self apply it.
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Archie2009 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:30 am CRT, Intersectionality, Queer Theory, Fat Studies, etc are not serious subjects. They are unscientific postmodernism infused BS. And divisive. And, yes, often racist or lead to racism.
Intersectionality and “identity” politics grew out the recognition in 1970’s by black radical lesbians that white radical lesbians wanted them to abandon black men. Black lesbians pushed back against this by pointing out they had a set of issues on the basis of the fact that not only were they lesbians, and thus subject to discrimination, but they were also Black, and subject to yet another layer of discrimination their white colleagues would never experience. So they refused to bow to the pressure put on them by the white lesbians to abandon Black men in the continuing struggle of Black people to secure their civil rights.

Of course, the real identity politics was the identity politics of the heterosexual, patriarchal, racist, white majority,

And no, they are not themselves racist nor lead to racism. Racism against who? “Whites?” That idea is completely unsupported
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Critical Race Theory is a technical term that academics used for the sake of precision in discussing the subject among themselves.

For most of us, its just this: two equally qualified couples applied for a mortgage in 1973. Couple 1 was a city bus driver and a teacher. The other was a sanitation worker and a nurse. Both had combined incomes that were about the same. Couple 1 was white, second generation immigrants. Couple 2 was black. Guess who got the mortgage. Guess who got stuck in public housing. Both couples had two children of the same age. Due to their home addresses, couple 1's children went to a suburban school with well staffed schools with turf sports fields, an indoor pool, two gymnasiums, and a couple Apple IIC computers in the library. Couple 2's children went to an inner city school where they used old textbooks and crammed 30 kids into a class with 1 teacher. Both families' children graduated high school and went on to college. Couple 1's children graduated in 4 years; one child went to work on Wall Street, and the other went on to graduate school in psychology. Couple 2's children, started at two year community colleges; one child dropped out after one year, took odd jobs before applying for the fire department and getting rejected, eventually getting a job with his father in the sanitation department; the other finished after 2 and a half years while working part time, and then went on to get a four year degree which took another 4 years while they worked full time. After graduating they continued in their retail job for another three years before applying and getting a civil service job. Couple 1's children went on to a Woody Allen life, with kids, divorces, etc. and professional advancement, whose grand children went on to the upper middle class path of college and career. Couple 2's children got out of the projects, and though they were both able to buy coop apartments, they were in poor neighborhoods with poor schools; couple 2's grandchildren continued down the path of the urban working poor, with one becoming a renowned BLM activist.

CRT is the careful study of these life paths over generations, measuring how racial bias throughout society plays out in people's lives. This is certainly something worth studying and understanding.

Sure, a similar eye could be turned to the affects of bias on the rural poor. Bias against poor whites is there, and by all means it should be studied and understood. This however does not negate CRT, or negate the unique characteristics of racism and its history in the United States.

Its emotional, because its f**ked up what that loan officer back in 1973 did to the black family who was just as qualified for the opportunities that suburban home ownership would have gotten them.

Its also emotional because the poor rural white family who got denied a loan in 1973 that would have tied them over a bad harvest would have saved their family farm because, though the father was a skilled farmer, he could barely read and write. That loan would have avoided the descent into alcohol and drug abuse and petty criminality that would characterize their home life over the next three generations. No one is studying this and making fancy technical names, so screw those stupid liberals and cry baby blacks. And screw these mexicans who are now working on the old family farm for the corporation that bought it.

This goes for all sides of the debate... at what point does venting disappointment and resentment lose its poignancy and pleasure and just become interminable complaining? Biases are real, with real effects. Especially for those who aspire to the bodhisattva path, the only question is how to alleviate suffering. As Kannon shows us, its in myriad ways in response to the myriad cries for help. Complaining about how someone else is getting help is ridiculous.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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On CRT: To piggyback of what QQ said, unfortunately CRT rarely touches on common class grievances. Having had a little exposure to it, the academics can get pretty navel-gazy.

The thing is, the success of this current anti-CRT movement partially hinges on exploiting the resentment of the same poor whites QQ is talking about. That’s only possible by obfuscating class dynamics. Unfortunately, In that sense modern liberalism - which has adopted some of the language of CRT, at least in theory- does half the job for conservatives.
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm On CRT: To piggyback of what QQ said, unfortunately CRT rarely touches on common class grievances. Having had a little exposure to it, the academics can get pretty navel-gazy.

The thing is, the success of this current anti-CRT movement partially hinges on exploiting the resentment of the same poor whites QQ is talking about. That’s only possible by obfuscating class dynamics. Unfortunately, In that sense modern liberalism - which has adopted some of the language of CRT, at least in theory- does half the job for conservatives.
In my experience, it's a mix. Many of the initial proponents of CRT were/are socialists of some stripe, and class analysis was baked in. As CRT moved from a way specifically to analyze American legal jurisprudence* to a broader Theory of Everything, some of the nuance has been lost (or maybe stripped out).

*And, lest we forget, CRT as a method of legal analysis was relatively uncontroversial until very recently. People could agree or disagree, but it was put in the same basket as Legal Realism or Law & Economics: another analytical tool. My decidedly non-woke law school had at least one CRT-based seminar, for example.
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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm On CRT: To piggyback of what QQ said, unfortunately CRT rarely touches on common class grievances.
Race, in America, is class, IMO.
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Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:17 pm CRT as a method of legal analysis was relatively uncontroversial until very recently. People could agree or disagree, but it was put in the same basket as Legal Realism or Law & Economics: another analytical tool. My decidedly non-woke law school had at least one CRT-based seminar, for example.
The hysteria over CRT is just another example of right-wing race baiting.
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Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm On CRT: To piggyback of what QQ said, unfortunately CRT rarely touches on common class grievances.
Race, in America, is class, IMO.
That's a little too reductionist, I think. There are numerous underprivileged and deprived classes. Race defines many of them. And by that we could talk about poor Scotch Irish in Appalachia or my French Canadian ancestors, both underprivileged groups who have been in N. America as long as Africans who were brought over as slaves and who have historically suffered discrimination, or even those rural yankees you live among. They do have the advantage of putting on the right clothes and losing their accents and fitting in with mainstream privileged white society - but that doesn't take into account the way someone raised in those discriminated communities may be conditioned by their history for generations. To suggest being from a poor white background is the same as being poor and black is of course silly. But to say that there is nothing similar is silly also.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm On CRT: To piggyback of what QQ said, unfortunately CRT rarely touches on common class grievances.
Race, in America, is class, IMO.
That's a little too reductionist, I think. There are numerous underprivileged and deprived classes. Race defines many of them. And by that we could talk about poor Scotch Irish in Appalachia or my French Canadian ancestors, both underprivileged groups who have been in N. America as long as Africans who were brought over as slaves and who have historically suffered discrimination, or even those rural yankees you live among.
No, it is pretty much race based. Poor whites in the US were systematically given rights denied to Blacks and Indigenous people.

The Scots-Irish were the last peoples from the Britain proper come here in any numbers, migrating principally in the 18th and 19th century. What is true is that slave trade was increasing rapidly at the same time the Scots-Irish began coming over here. But you know, 1619.

Time to reread Zinn.
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:17 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm On CRT: To piggyback of what QQ said, unfortunately CRT rarely touches on common class grievances. Having had a little exposure to it, the academics can get pretty navel-gazy.

The thing is, the success of this current anti-CRT movement partially hinges on exploiting the resentment of the same poor whites QQ is talking about. That’s only possible by obfuscating class dynamics. Unfortunately, In that sense modern liberalism - which has adopted some of the language of CRT, at least in theory- does half the job for conservatives.
In my experience, it's a mix. Many of the initial proponents of CRT were/are socialists of some stripe, and class analysis was baked in. As CRT moved from a way specifically to analyze American legal jurisprudence* to a broader Theory of Everything, some of the nuance has been lost (or maybe stripped out).
Really? We read bits of the seminal people in school and the logic seemed to mostly reject the notion of class solidarity or even shared experiences based on class. Everything was based on personal narratives of oppression based on racial indentity, and -lots- of navel gazing based on said identities. It may just be how the stuff I read was curated. Can you recommend some CRT people who take class seriously?
*And, lest we forget, CRT as a method of legal analysis was relatively uncontroversial until very recently. People could agree or disagree, but it was put in the same basket as Legal Realism or Law & Economics: another analytical tool. My decidedly non-woke law school had at least one CRT-based seminar, for example.

On some level I think institutional/systemic racism it quite undeniable. I think that QQs post summed up pretty well the easily empirically verifiable aspects of that. The CRT stuff I was around was a lot mushier and theoretical.
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:51 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 pm

Race, in America, is class, IMO.
That's a little too reductionist, I think. There are numerous underprivileged and deprived classes. Race defines many of them. And by that we could talk about poor Scotch Irish in Appalachia or my French Canadian ancestors, both underprivileged groups who have been in N. America as long as Africans who were brought over as slaves and who have historically suffered discrimination, or even those rural yankees you live among.
No, it is pretty much race based. Poor whites in the US were systematically given rights denied to Blacks and Indigenous people.

The Scots-Irish were the last peoples from the Britain proper come here in any numbers, migrating principally in the 18th and 19th century. What is true is that slave trade was increasing rapidly at the same time the Scots-Irish began coming over here. But you know, 1619.

Time to reread Zinn.
We'll have to agree to disagree. The treatment of blacks in N. America is among the great injustices that define the United States. But, we could also include the genocide of Native Americans right up there. There's also been discrimination against brown and yellow people, not at the same levels of horror and impact. There has also been systematic discrimination, de jure and de facto, against various white ethnic groups.

I simply don't see why all other forms of discrimination need to be effaced to acknowledge discrimination against blacks in N. America. This is not a "white lives matter" retort. I don't like it when anyone is treated unfairly. Different forms of unfair treatment require different forms of address and redress.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Quiz - Which Political Party would you belong to?

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:51 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 pm

Race, in America, is class, IMO.
That's a little too reductionist, I think. There are numerous underprivileged and deprived classes. Race defines many of them. And by that we could talk about poor Scotch Irish in Appalachia or my French Canadian ancestors, both underprivileged groups who have been in N. America as long as Africans who were brought over as slaves and who have historically suffered discrimination, or even those rural yankees you live among.
No, it is pretty much race based. Poor whites in the US were systematically given rights denied to Blacks and Indigenous people.

The Scots-Irish were the last peoples from the Britain proper come here in any numbers, migrating principally in the 18th and 19th century. What is true is that slave trade was increasing rapidly at the same time the Scots-Irish began coming over here. But you know, 1619.

Time to reread Zinn.
I’ve read Zinn and seen him speak/met him. I even share his last name!

Anyway, that doesn’t mean that poor whites and blacks are of different classes, it means the ruling class tried to drive a wedge between the two in ways that are pretty obvious, since it is going on all around us and was a huge part of the Trumpnpresidency.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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