What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

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Learning
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Learning »

As someone who keeps the 5 precepts, I would not take DMT or psychedelics.
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Manwon
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Manwon »

Heimdall wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:35 am So DMT is a hallucinogenic drug that some Native American tribes used regularly in religious rituals for spiritual experiences.

The people who take it claim "spiritual breakthroughs" including "visions of the oneness of everything", "ego-death", "secret knowledge on the nature of life itself", and significantly, various spiritual entities taking on many different forms - some that are seemingly beneficial, some that are seemingly horrifying, and some that harass / possess people. These entities are often called "machine elves" (called "machine elves" because they appear to be made of constant transforming geometry, like a machine). ,

People have drawn artwork of these experiences and the entities they've encountered.

Image

Image

Image

The one post that I highly recommend to explain more about it is this one:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default. ... s&m=580901




One notable proponent of it's usage is Podcast Host Joe Rogan, who brings people on the show and is an advocate of DMT usage.

However, it's not without controversy - there are many people who think the seemingly beneficial entities are purely demonic or malevolent (see the above post which I highly recommend reading to get an understanding of the types of encounters people encounter).


Additionally, some people think that these experiences / entities are mere creations of the individual mind (like imagination) and don't exist externally.

What do Buddhists think about this? Are these entities "real"? Can you encounter the same beings from meditation / religious praxis as you can from these drugs? Are they malevolent / dangerous? Beneficial?

And most importantly - is it bad karma or inhibiting to the path to liberation to do illegal drugs like DMT?

I have never experienced this or any drug for the purpose of Spirituality except peyote. I have a number of Native American friends in Western Washington, and I have been invited to many different tribal ceremonies. During a religious healing ceremony I was given a liquid to consume in bowl, I was told it contained boiled down peyote cactus and they explained what to expect. I tried the peyote and it had a very interesting effect upon my experience during that ceremony. At first it made me a bit nauseated, but that passed and then the effects were very interesting indeed. As the drums were beaten as part of the ceremony I felt like my body was responding to the beat and it was mesmerizing.

As the ceremony progressed I had flashs of current and past tribal history, one moment the people I was with were present and the next there were Native Americans I had never seen before all around dressed in a manner I was unfamiliar with. The ceremony went on for approximately two hours, but it actual felt like much more time had passed. At first I didn't mention the experience I had, but I couldn't shake it, so months later I spoke with a friends grandfather who was an important tribal elder. I explained what had occurred and he was very quite for a awhile, then he told me that I had experienced a vision. He also seemed a bit surprised concerning what I had told him I had seen. He went on to say that while visions occasionally do occur during ceremonies where peyote is used, he that it was the first time he had ever been told about a none Native American having an experience like mine.

He went on to say that what I had seen was another healing ceremony from the distant past based upon the clothing I described the people had been wearing. However, he had no explanation for why it had occurred or if there was meaning attached to it. Well, for me it was very enlightening, however, I would not choose to repeat the use of that drug. To this day, I can vividly still recall the events that occurred that day, and it always feels like it just occurred. There is no fear, or any other negative feeling at all, it's actually like Daja Vu, and as I am writing this I am having the full experience occur again! I don't to this day, know how to actually feel about what occurred, on one hand I believe the entire situation was nothing a drug induced hallucination, but on the other hand when I explained to the Elder the way people were dressed he was a bit surprised. That's when he explained that it was a vision, to this day I believe it was just the drug. However I can't explain the way things looked or how people were dressed and I suspect I never will be able to fully reconcile the entire experience.

Peace
PeterC
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by PeterC »

Our minds tend to fill in the gaps a lot more than we are aware - the most obvious example of this is dreaming, where imagery from your waking life often turns up. You can choose to interpret this as supernatural symbolism, but often it's just your not-fully-conscious brain reflecting on memories in an unstructured way.

Once, when I was very sick with a high fever, I had a vision of a dead person I knew telling me I needed to seek out the Aztec ruins. Now I could have woken up and interpreted that as a supernatural message giving me new direction in my spiritual life. But the more prosaic explanation was that I was in Mexico at the time, and had been thinking about where to go sightseeing once I got better; while sick I had been reading the Brothers Karamazov, and had just read the section involving Zosima, who was a Coptic priest; and the dead person speaking to me had been a priest when he was alive. So I dismissed it as simply being the product of my semi-conscious mind arbitrarily connecting the dots.

If you go into a hallucinogenic experience looking for a deeper meaning, you can always find it. It's more likely just to be coincidence.
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Sādhaka
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Sādhaka »

Interesting, Manwon and Peter C^.

I’ve actually been talking about this topic in my personal life today; and also about Coptic Christianity as well, believe it or not.

Probably just ‘coincidence’ though :shrug:
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterC
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by PeterC »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:03 am Interesting, Manwon and Peter C^.

I’ve actually been talking about this topic in my personal life today; and also about Coptic Christianity as well, believe it or not.

Probably just ‘coincidence’ though :shrug:
My general theory on this is that, to put it bluntly, use of hallucinogenic drugs makes you in some way temporarily stupid, such that ordinary things seem profound. If you take drugs with the hope of having a profound experience, and your mind is saying "look here, this seems profound", then you will choose to convince yourself that it really is profound. We are exceptionally good at persuading ourselves, particularly when we don't realize that's what we're doing. People see what they want to see.
Malcolm
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:38 am
Sādhaka wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:03 am Interesting, Manwon and Peter C^.

I’ve actually been talking about this topic in my personal life today; and also about Coptic Christianity as well, believe it or not.

Probably just ‘coincidence’ though :shrug:
My general theory on this is that, to put it bluntly, use of hallucinogenic drugs makes you in some way temporarily stupid, such that ordinary things seem profound. If you take drugs with the hope of having a profound experience, and your mind is saying "look here, this seems profound", then you will choose to convince yourself that it really is profound. We are exceptionally good at persuading ourselves, particularly when we don't realize that's what we're doing. People see what they want to see.
A friend called me up recently, all excited because as he had taken a variant of DMT and he had remembered countless past lives…when I asked him who he had been in his past life, after ribbing him about his past life as Cleopatra, he sheepishly admitted he could not remember any of them…
Giovanni
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Giovanni »

When William James experimented with Nitrous Oxide he became convinced that he had discovered the Secret Of The Universe.
He wrote it down so he wouldn’t forget. The next day he read what he had written, it said

“Hogamus higamus man is polygamous.
Higamous hogamous woman monogamous.”
Malcolm
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Malcolm »

Giovanni wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:12 pm When William James experimented with Nitrous Oxide he became convinced that he had discovered the Secret Of The Universe.
He wrote it down so he wouldn’t forget. The next day he read what he had written, it said

“Hogamus higamus man is polygamous.
Higamous hogamous woman monogamous.”
Well, nitrous does get you high along with destroying brain cells...
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Let’s be honest the mind is a mystery to most of us. What peyote actually does or doesn’t do.

If self grasping is diminishing then I’m happy with that :hug:
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Sādhaka
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:12 pm
Giovanni wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:12 pm When William James experimented with Nitrous Oxide he became convinced that he had discovered the Secret Of The Universe.
He wrote it down so he wouldn’t forget. The next day he read what he had written, it said

“Hogamus higamus man is polygamous.
Higamous hogamous woman monogamous.”

Well, nitrous does get you high along with destroying brain cells...

Right. Whatever seeming benefits N.O. may have, aren’t something that can’t be experienced with Pranayama & related practices.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Recently finished Zig Zag Zen, a book about Buddhism and Psychedelics.
It's a collection of essays covering the range of views, from proponents to opponents of psychedelic use, teachers to laypeople, those who have used and those who haven't.
Different tones and strengths of point of view also, good equanimity practice as I read strongly pro and strongly con arguments.
I enjoyed the interview with Jack Kornfield, and recognized a few other names as well.
Not to mention the beautiful art interspersed, with biographies and further info if someone wishes to see more by any artist featured.

From what I read in the Pollan book (How to Change Your Mind), it seems like psychedelic experimentation in the '60s lead a lot of people to Buddhism and Zen.
A common refrain is the powerful effect of, for a while, having an altogether different perspective of one's mind, personality, and experience of the world.
I see how this lead to interest in a religion which very much talks about perception, consciousness, the vast potentials of the mind.
Then a lifetime of worthwhile work begins :smile:

I've wondered if the isolation of COVID, along with a renewal of interest in the US in psychedelics (such as the revival of therapeutic research), will lead to a similar surge in interest in Buddhism.

It seems like a good time to educate oneself on where people may be coming from.

I think Ken Wilber summed it up for me.
"While psychedelic use is all about altered states, Buddhism is all about altered traits, and one does not necessarily lead to the other."
Namu Amida Butsu
frankie
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by frankie »

明安 Myoan wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:19 am Recently finished Zig Zag Zen, a book about Buddhism and Psychedelics.
It's a collection of essays covering the range of views, from proponents to opponents of psychedelic use, teachers to laypeople, those who have used and those who haven't.
Different tones and strengths of point of view also, good equanimity practice as I read strongly pro and strongly con arguments.
I enjoyed the interview with Jack Kornfield, and recognized a few other names as well.
Not to mention the beautiful art interspersed, with biographies and further info if someone wishes to see more by any artist featured.

From what I read in the Pollan book (How to Change Your Mind), it seems like psychedelic experimentation in the '60s lead a lot of people to Buddhism and Zen.
A common refrain is the powerful effect of, for a while, having an altogether different perspective of one's mind, personality, and experience of the world.
I see how this lead to interest in a religion which very much talks about perception, consciousness, the vast potentials of the mind.
Then a lifetime of worthwhile work begins :smile:

I've wondered if the isolation of COVID, along with a renewal of interest in the US in psychedelics (such as the revival of therapeutic research), will lead to a similar surge in interest in Buddhism.

It seems like a good time to educate oneself on where people may be coming from.

I think Ken Wilber summed it up for me.
"While psychedelic use is all about altered states, Buddhism is all about altered traits, and one does not necessarily lead to the other."
I can readily see the fascination of this stuff for those who are still searching for their particular 'way.'

I would only caution that many of us, from the sixties onwards, have been having our ears assailed by it every few years. It dies out for a while and then comes back into vogue, feeding the publishing industries, university lectures/books etc and psychedelia 'gurus', old and 'new'. I began to think of it as a kind of 'tripping tedium trancendentalism'.

Also noticeable, how many of those guys getting into it with a fevered rage...seemed to rather quickly disappear up their spiritual asses not long afterwards, and ever since - that's if they didn't die relatively young, which they often seemed to.

There is a view that the indulgence in psychedelics can act as a kind of preparatory for already existing Buddhist preliminaries. That you can immediately be transported to insights and higher realms, perhaps not cognizing that messing with the brain in this way is naturally going to create all sorts of phantasmagorical wonders and sometimes hells, that are still only within the context of relative samsara.

The danger is that people keep hanging out for decades wandering from tradition to tradition and guru to guru, looking for what they imagine are the heights and depths they once experienced - along with the temptation, when things get a bit stale, to pop another 'booster' to get back onto their trackless path. Most often they don't, and find themselves increasingly desparate and dysfunctional in lives only enlivened every few years by hooking another crop of eager 'newbies.'

True teachers will be extremely cautious of this kind of chemicaly induced dissacotiative distraction exercise. Knowing from experience, that with patience and diligent practice, all will be rendered cooly and logically transparent to us. It may not always be very exciting and we will certainly learn a lot about our relationship with extreme boredom and how patient familarity with this can, instead of inclining us to run off and get high, lead to a realm of bliss and pleasure as yet unimaginable.

Please remember that the guys pushing this kind of attitude, particularly to the latest crop of gullibles and older people for whom a path may have become a bit stale, are probably not doing it for reasons prioritizing their audience's future mental and physical wellbeing.

I have a theory that a lot of these guys (the still living ones), having experienced the dangers for themselves, merely spin out their well rehearsed paeans to the benefits and delights of psychedelics and then go home for a nice simple cup of coffee, whilst checking their bank balances...accessed by the password "thereisoneborneveryminute."
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明安 Myoan
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Hello, Frankie. There is no single attitude being presented in Zig Zag Zen. In fact, many of the same cautions you raised can be found in the interviews with Buddhist teachers, so you are quite correct about the dangers :smile:
I found it to be an informative book, although How to Change Your Mind covers the historical and therapeutic aspects better.

In any case, it's good to know where people may be coming from, when they make some silly statements but have a genuine sense of spiritual inquiry/curiosity.
I've seen a few such discussions on the Buddhism Reddit that didn't end well :lol:
Namu Amida Butsu
frankie
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by frankie »

明安 Myoan wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:58 pm Hello, Frankie. There is no single attitude being presented in Zig Zag Zen. In fact, many of the same cautions you raised can be found in the interviews with Buddhist teachers, so you are quite correct about the dangers :smile:
I found it to be an informative book, although How to Change Your Mind covers the historical and therapeutic aspects better.

In any case, it's good to know where people may be coming from, when they make some silly statements but have a genuine sense of spiritual inquiry/curiosity.
I've seen a few such discussions on the Buddhism Reddit that didn't end well :lol:
No good place to end excepting people wise up and get onto their cushions or into their teachers' guided practices, away from the toxic nonsense.

Haven't seen the book. Don't need to. It has been said thousands of times over, inside out up and around.

Just for absolute clarity, though, and to make my personal position clear: those inclined to take drugs for spiritual advancement/insight are self-indulgent mugs - end of. Further, when they make a nuisance of themselves and a hazard to others, with any encouragent to take them...they are vile and headed for a bad place. They can clean up their act and make confession and reparation before closing out this life's chapter, otherwise...

Never thought I would end up ever agreeing with Nancy bloody Reagan on this. What a life!
Malcolm
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Malcolm »

frankie wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:35 pm Just for absolute clarity, though, and to make my personal position clear: those inclined to take drugs for spiritual advancement/insight are self-indulgent mugs - end of.
Not all, most are just confused and following false guides.
frankie
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by frankie »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:48 pm
frankie wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:35 pm Just for absolute clarity, though, and to make my personal position clear: those inclined to take drugs for spiritual advancement/insight are self-indulgent mugs - end of.
Not all, most are just confused and following false guides.
Yes, although there is always the rather privileged and educated couterie of 'spiritual fashionistas', doing it for the buzz and kicks. They can probably afford great care and attention when it all goes off the rails. For the average intelligent (and as you say misguded) Joes and Joannas, though - they very often burn themselves to the point of checking into hell for decades afterwards. Sometimes never to return...for lifetimes.

Ffffing with the priceless gift of the human mind, and intoducing an uncontrolled whacky chemical fairground into it, like that, seems to me akin to receiving a holy burning bush and deciding to ignorantly piss all over it.
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Toenail »

I was very interested in Ayahuasca and planned to take it next year in neatherlands with peruvian shamans. Then I read this book: 'Singing to the Plants: A Guide to Mestizo Shamanism in the Upper Amazon' on associated shamanism. I was shocked how romantically deluded I had been. There is very little wisdom, a very black and white world view, constant fear of black magic, much hatred and jealousy in these cultures and among those who claim to be healers. It is not uncommon for them to knife each other over perceived popularity etc. It really put me off. It seems like a powerful agent, but the result is probably delusion even if it feels pleasant.
Malcolm
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Malcolm »

Toenail wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:13 pm I was very interested in Ayahuasca and planned to take it next year in neatherlands with peruvian shamans. Then I read this book: 'Singing to the Plants: A Guide to Mestizo Shamanism in the Upper Amazon' on associated shamanism.
Yes, a very interesting book. Quite authoritative.

It really put me off. It seems like a powerful agent, but the result is probably delusion even if it feels pleasant.
Ayahuasca in particular can open oneself up to provocations.
Toenail
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Toenail »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:17 pm
It really put me off. It seems like a powerful agent, but the result is probably delusion even if it feels pleasant.
Ayahuasca in particular can open oneself up to provocations.
Could you elaborate on that? It sounds very interesting and a bit magical. I dig stuff like that.
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Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?

Post by Danny »

Toenail wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:13 pm I was very interested in Ayahuasca and planned to take it next year in neatherlands with peruvian shamans. Then I read this book: 'Singing to the Plants: A Guide to Mestizo Shamanism in the Upper Amazon' on associated shamanism. I was shocked how romantically deluded I had been. There is very little wisdom, a very black and white world view, constant fear of black magic, much hatred and jealousy in these cultures and among those who claim to be healers. It is not uncommon for them to knife each other over perceived popularity etc. It really put me off. It seems like a powerful agent, but the result is probably delusion even if it feels pleasant.
You should read the popol vuh
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