Choiceless awareness

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:52 pm This is just just a form of indifference. What’s profound about that? This not even shamatha, much less insight.
So, how is not clinging to the three poisons not practicing indifference?
How is generating compassion towards both friends and enemies not practicing indifference?
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An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:52 pm This is just just a form of indifference. What’s profound about that? This not even shamatha, much less insight.
So, how is not clinging to the three poisons not practicing indifference?
The three poisons are the cause of grasping, not objects of grasping.

Freedom from the three afflictions arises from recognizing how they are the direct cause of actions that result in suffering. One refrains from grasping objects of desire, for example, because one understands how that leads to the suffering of change. One refrains from grasping objects of anger, understanding how that leads to the suffering of suffering, and one refrains from grasping objects of ignorance, because one understands how that leads to the suffering of pervasive formations.
How is generating compassion towards both friends and enemies not practicing indifference?
Indifference is often mistaken for equanimity, especially by beginners. An indifferent person will not generate compassion towards either friends or enemies. A bodhisattva may have equanimity, but they are never indifferent towards sentient beings.
Danny
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Danny »

Indifference is not neutral, it’s
Either lazy or non caring.
So to my stupid mind it carries negative intentions.

A non position.. is a position.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Danny wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:26 pm Indifference is not neutral, it’s
Either lazy or non caring.
So to my stupid mind it carries negative intentions.

A non position.. is a position.
Indifference can mean that.
It also means not holding an opinion for or against.

Suppose a hungry stray cat shows up at your door, and you happen to have two cans of cat food. One is fish and the other is chicken. Out of a sense of caring, you want to feed the cat. Do you care which can you open? Probably not. You may be totally indifferent as far as which can is opened, as long as the cat is fed.
This shows that indifference itself has nothing to do with compassion.
Indifference towards whether the cat starves or not is a different issue.
Likewise, one can have awareness without picking and choosing, and still practice compassion.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Danny
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Danny »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:14 pm
Danny wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:26 pm Indifference is not neutral, it’s
Either lazy or non caring.
So to my stupid mind it carries negative intentions.

A non position.. is a position.
Indifference can mean that.
It also means not holding an opinion for or against.

Suppose a hungry stray cat shows up at your door, and you happen to have two cans of cat food. One is fish and the other is chicken. Out of a sense of caring, you want to feed the cat. Do you care which can you open? Probably not. You may be totally indifferent as far as which can is opened, as long as the cat is fed.
This shows that indifference itself has nothing to do with compassion.
Indifference towards whether the cat starves or not is a different issue.
Likewise, one can have awareness without picking and choosing, and still practice compassion.
What?
Lol you bodhisattvas and your quandaries!

Lol

Feed the effing cat! If it needs it.

I had an owl on my porch last night sheltering from a storm.
I left it alone.. was gone by the morning.

The best thing was to leave it alone.
It had already sort refuge.
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:14 pm
Danny wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:26 pm Indifference is not neutral, it’s
Either lazy or non caring.
So to my stupid mind it carries negative intentions.

A non position.. is a position.
Indifference can mean that.
It also means not holding an opinion for or against.

Suppose a hungry stray cat shows up at your door, and you happen to have two cans of cat food. One is fish and the other is chicken. Out of a sense of caring, you want to feed the cat. Do you care which can you open? Probably not. You may be totally indifferent as far as which can is opened, as long as the cat is fed.
This shows that indifference itself has nothing to do with compassion.
Indifference towards whether the cat starves or not is a different issue.
Likewise, one can have awareness without picking and choosing, and still practice compassion.
Practicing compassion is a choice. So no, you cannot have awareness free of choices. You may not care whether you feed a cat tuna or chicken as long as it is fed, but that does not mean your action is "indifferent." The goal of feeding the cat is a choice, the food is secondary. And you do have to choose which can. The cat isn't going to choose for you.
Danny
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Danny »

If a person on a road has the intent to kill you... as a bodhisattva .. you can kill them.
They have that karma.
frankie
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by frankie »

Danny wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:56 pm If a person on a road has the intent to kill you... as a bodhisattva .. you can kill them.
They have that karma.
Did that come from a Charlie Manson interview?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:50 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:14 pm
Danny wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:26 pm Indifference is not neutral, it’s
Either lazy or non caring.
So to my stupid mind it carries negative intentions.

A non position.. is a position.
Indifference can mean that.
It also means not holding an opinion for or against.

Suppose a hungry stray cat shows up at your door, and you happen to have two cans of cat food. One is fish and the other is chicken. Out of a sense of caring, you want to feed the cat. Do you care which can you open? Probably not. You may be totally indifferent as far as which can is opened, as long as the cat is fed.
This shows that indifference itself has nothing to do with compassion.
Indifference towards whether the cat starves or not is a different issue.
Likewise, one can have awareness without picking and choosing, and still practice compassion.
Practicing compassion is a choice. So no, you cannot have awareness free of choices.

You may not care whether you feed a cat tuna or chicken as long as it is fed, but that does not mean your action is "indifferent." The goal of feeding the cat is a choice, the food is secondary.

And you do have to choose which can. The cat isn't going to choose for you.
First, here you are conflating compassion and awareness.

Next, yes. One is primary, one is secondary. That’s the point. They are not the same thing.

Last, I could easily tear the labels off the cans and not know which is which, making the fact of choosing a moot point, just as when one generates compassion to all beings regardless of what label they have: human, animal, preta, etc.

One can rest in awareness that is free of conceptualizations. No?

Since ‘choosing’ is a type of conceptual activity, then if one is resting in a non-conceptual state, one would not be engaged in a conceptual activity, such as ‘choosing’.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:46 pm
First, here you are conflating compassion and awareness.
No.
Next, yes. One is primary, one is secondary. That’s the point. They are not the same thing.

Last, I could easily tear the labels off the cans and not know which is which, making the fact of choosing a moot point, just as when one generates compassion to all beings regardless of what label they have: human, animal, preta, etc.
That’s fine, but it does not render one indifferent.
One can rest in awareness that is free of conceptualizations. No?
Depend on what one means by “free.”
Since ‘choosing’ is a type of conceptual activity, then if one is resting in a non-conceptual state, one would not be engaged in a conceptual activity, such as ‘choosing’.
Some people have this idea that “resting in a nonconceptual state” means a state of absence of thoughts. But this is a very incorrect idea. The mind is always with concepts. It’s function is thinking. Since there can be no awareness in absence of a mind, it is clear that “resting in a nonconceptual state” does not mean being in a state with no conceptual activity. It means resting in state where one is not dominated by conceptual activity. It’s not possible to stop conceptual activity. Go ahead, try. Get back to me on that.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:32 am It’s not possible to stop conceptual activity. Go ahead, try. Get back to me on that.
to simply rest the mind without conceptualizing things? Sorry, but I don’t find that too difficult. Just don’t try too hard. I think a lot of people who meditate can do it.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
PeterC
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PeterC »

Danny wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:56 pm If a person on a road has the intent to kill you... as a bodhisattva .. you can kill them.
They have that karma.
So much nonsense in this thread

Are you a Bodhisattva? How many bodies in how many realms can you emanate at one time? Which siddhis have you developed? Do you clearly perceive the karma of others?
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PeterC »

muni wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:28 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:03 pm
muni wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:49 pm awareness with choice sounds as grasping
That thought had occurred to me also. If awareness is taken to mean nondual awareness, then *all* awareness is choiceless. It's happening right now, effortlessly, all you need to do is ... be aware of it.

Does that sound about right to you?
:smile:

I have been looking for Krishnamurti and found a quote.

"truth beyond the boundaries of religion, ideology, or tradition, he declared that "Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever."

I think about that we realize our delusions/ unawareness by study, technic, meditation, contemplation and so purify, but "nondual" awareness is, or Truth cannot be fabricated.
I would guess that the vast majority of people doing this are simply resting in marigpa / lungmaten, which is really of no value
muni
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by muni »

What is important here for me is meditation or also called non meditation. Whether concepts are inspiring us to practice, to be free - while it is difficult to have a concept what suits every analytical mind.

muni
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by muni »

Yongye Mingyur Rinpoche is explaining in many ways, bringing clarity.
Here a short word:
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:32 am It’s not possible to stop conceptual activity. Go ahead, try. Get back to me on that.
to simply rest the mind without conceptualizing things? Sorry, but I don’t find that too difficult. Just don’t try too hard. I think a lot of people who meditate can do it.
Conceptualization is the natural function of the mind. The mind conceptualizes automatically. As long as one is breathing, one is conceptualizing. Whether one is resting the mind or not, the mind goes right on conceptualizing. "Resting the mind" does not mean "rest in a concept-free state." Because people think it does, they incorrectly meditate, resulting in birth as animals or unconscious devas.
frankie
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by frankie »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:38 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:32 am It’s not possible to stop conceptual activity. Go ahead, try. Get back to me on that.
to simply rest the mind without conceptualizing things? Sorry, but I don’t find that too difficult. Just don’t try too hard. I think a lot of people who meditate can do it.
Conceptualization is the natural function of the mind. The mind conceptualizes automatically. As long as one is breathing, one is conceptualizing. Whether one is resting the mind or not, the mind goes right on conceptualizing. "Resting the mind" does not mean "rest in a concept-free state." Because people think it does, they incorrectly meditate, resulting in birth as animals or unconscious devas.

If this is referring to the relative 'thinking machine' mind, then of course it's accurate.

However, without being able to question everybody's personal experience; I imagine what is also being referred to in this thread are people's experience of a primordial immanent awareness, that is only post-experience dependent upon that 'small-mind' for descriptive purposes. In the original experience, however, there is indeed a shift from that into what can perhaps only be inadequately and nominally descibed as nondual awareness. Or perhaps something like 'intuitive unmediated awareness.'

Nothing particularly unusual about this, people often drop into it...they just never mention it or perhaps even notice it themselves.

Or some people do - and then of course use their relative thinking machine mind to create a luctrative career embellishing and conceptualising upon the experience in their many books and CDs threafter.
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Jesse »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:38 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:32 am It’s not possible to stop conceptual activity. Go ahead, try. Get back to me on that.
to simply rest the mind without conceptualizing things? Sorry, but I don’t find that too difficult. Just don’t try too hard. I think a lot of people who meditate can do it.
Conceptualization is the natural function of the mind. The mind conceptualizes automatically. As long as one is breathing, one is conceptualizing. Whether one is resting the mind or not, the mind goes right on conceptualizing. "Resting the mind" does not mean "rest in a concept-free state." Because people think it does, they incorrectly meditate, resulting in birth as animals or unconscious devas.
In the proper way of resting the mind, you maintain awareness of the ongoing conceptualization process, but through awareness of it's illusory nature, and awareness of our tendency to become confused/bound by the conceptualizations; you remain detached.

The incorrect way is using concentration to suppress mental functions, which results in a stillness, but as a result of suppressing mental activity, rather than detachment rooted in understanding?
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:38 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:32 am It’s not possible to stop conceptual activity. Go ahead, try. Get back to me on that.
to simply rest the mind without conceptualizing things? Sorry, but I don’t find that too difficult. Just don’t try too hard. I think a lot of people who meditate can do it.
Conceptualization is the natural function of the mind. The mind conceptualizes automatically. As long as one is breathing, one is conceptualizing. Whether one is resting the mind or not, the mind goes right on conceptualizing. "Resting the mind" does not mean "rest in a concept-free state." Because people think it does, they incorrectly meditate, resulting in birth as animals or unconscious devas.
I think we are talking about two very different things.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:38 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:18 am

to simply rest the mind without conceptualizing things? Sorry, but I don’t find that too difficult. Just don’t try too hard. I think a lot of people who meditate can do it.
Conceptualization is the natural function of the mind. The mind conceptualizes automatically. As long as one is breathing, one is conceptualizing. Whether one is resting the mind or not, the mind goes right on conceptualizing. "Resting the mind" does not mean "rest in a concept-free state." Because people think it does, they incorrectly meditate, resulting in birth as animals or unconscious devas.
I think we are talking about two very different things.
There is no awareness apart from a mind that is aware. There is no skandha of awareness, there is no āyatana of awareness, nor is there a dhātu of awareness. Awareness is a mental factor (caitta, sems byung) which accompanies a mind (citta, sems).
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