Choiceless awareness

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Rick
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Rick »

muni wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:49 pm awareness with choice sounds as grasping
That thought had occurred to me also. If awareness is taken to mean nondual awareness, then *all* awareness is choiceless. It's happening right now, effortlessly, all you need to do is ... be aware of it.

Does that sound about right to you?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
muni
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by muni »

Rick wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:03 pm
muni wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:49 pm awareness with choice sounds as grasping
That thought had occurred to me also. If awareness is taken to mean nondual awareness, then *all* awareness is choiceless. It's happening right now, effortlessly, all you need to do is ... be aware of it.

Does that sound about right to you?
:smile:

I have been looking for Krishnamurti and found a quote.

"truth beyond the boundaries of religion, ideology, or tradition, he declared that "Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever."

I think about that we realize our delusions/ unawareness by study, technic, meditation, contemplation and so purify, but "nondual" awareness is, or Truth cannot be fabricated.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Consider a panoramic view. Suppose you are looking out over a canyon or mountain valley. You just take the whole thing in. You don’t start thinking, “I like that little hill over here…I don’t much care for that craggy area over there… those clouds look a bit too low and they are the wrong shape, not what I’d prefer to see…”
So, likewise in meditation, you don’t start picking and choosing through the thoughts that arise. In the visible area where you sit, you can allow your central focus and your peripheral vision to merge into one single field of vision. The same with whatever is in your awareness of hearing: if you have tinnitus and there is also the hum of a fan in the room, you can just allow it to all merge into one sound.
I don’t think this is all that difficult.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Rick
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Rick »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:12 pm I don’t think this is all that difficult.
Mindfulness is not that difficult to learn. But to have it happen, on its own, without any effort or intention or goal, a spontaneous arising more or less ... that's, by definition, impossible to learn, because learning it is intentionalizing it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rick wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:23 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:12 pm I don’t think this is all that difficult.
Mindfulness is not that difficult to learn. But to have it happen, on its own, without any effort or intention or goal, a spontaneous arising more or less ... that's, by definition, impossible to learn, because learning it is intentionalizing it.
Same with playing a harmonica.
My point is that it’s not some highly advanced or impossible yoga or something
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Danny
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Danny »

So I was watching a documentary on how from the shroud of Turin .. they made a 3D printed copy of the body, and said this is the “true”
Image of Jesus, but I could tell from the body language of the experts that this “truth” was still up for debate.

Truth is like that. Is never settled,
Is always questioned. Truth then truly is unknowable.

The point of 4 noble truths, is they need to be questioned and explored. That’s the truth. It’s why our noble truths are unbreakable..undetermined.

Remarkable.
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Rick
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Re: Choiceless awareness

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:45 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:23 pm Mindfulness is not that difficult to learn. But to have it happen, on its own, without any effort or intention or goal, a spontaneous arising more or less ... that's, by definition, impossible to learn, because learning it is intentionalizing it.
Same with playing a harmonica.
My point is that it’s not some highly advanced or impossible yoga or something
So it would be like the harmonica was a cinch to learn, but to truly *play* it you'd have to suddenly, without intention, be ... playing it!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Dan74
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Dan74 »

Rick, I think a huge part of it is trust.

To trust in ourselves, that we can just drop this charade. Drop trying to be anything, sound like anything, attain anything, even drop the mind itself. Drop the whole kit and caboodle of consciousness and just be... choicelessly aware.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rick wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:20 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:45 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:23 pm Mindfulness is not that difficult to learn. But to have it happen, on its own, without any effort or intention or goal, a spontaneous arising more or less ... that's, by definition, impossible to learn, because learning it is intentionalizing it.
Same with playing a harmonica.
My point is that it’s not some highly advanced or impossible yoga or something
So it would be like the harmonica was a cinch to learn, but to truly *play* it you'd have to suddenly, without intention, be ... playing it!
Not really. I mean, it’s not like a sneeze.
You do a lot of meditation and works with what your mind experiences.
You get used to the experiences.
It’s like, if you go to New York City for the first time, it’s total sensory overload. Each separate thing is right in your face. It’s very exciting.
If you live there for a few years, it’s still exciting enough, but you are no longer distracted by honking horns, flashing lights, smelly sidewalks and tall buildings. You take it all in as a whole.
Similarly, meditation will allow you to experience phenomena that you perceive all at once. It’s just there. The scratches on the floor, the sounds outside the window, the smell from last nights dinner, just “there” all at once, without any individual elements as distractions.

It is what you are doing for any duration of time.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:03 pm
muni wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:49 pm awareness with choice sounds as grasping
That thought had occurred to me also. If awareness is taken to mean nondual awareness, then *all* awareness is choiceless. It's happening right now, effortlessly, all you need to do is ... be aware of it.

Does that sound about right to you?
There is no such thing as nondual awareness. Your definition proves my point.
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by KristenM »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:38 pm
Rick wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:19 pm Krishnamurti regarded thought as limited, and that to experience the unlimited, if it existed, something other than thought was called for. He called this intelligence and said that being choicelessly aware in the present moment might enable intelligence to manifest.
There is no kind of awareness intelligence that can be found outside the mental aggregate.
Does that mean that pristine consciousness or the basis has no awareness? Apologies if this is not the appropriate place to ask this.
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Rick
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Re: Choiceless awareness

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:57 am There is no such thing as nondual awareness.
If awareness is taken to mean a subject (awarer) and an object (awared), nondual awareness makes no sense.

If awareness is taken to mean no subject, no object, just awareness, nondual awareness would be the right term for it.

We all know subject/object awareness exists (conventionally), we experience it 10,000 times a day. As for whether subject/object-free 'pure' awareness exists, well, that's (way!) above my pay grade, though I'm sure Buddha said something definitive about it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
frankie
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Re: Choiceless awareness

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Rick wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:48 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:57 am There is no such thing as nondual awareness.
If awareness is taken to mean a subject (awarer) and an object (awared), nondual awareness makes no sense.

If awareness is taken to mean no subject, no object, just awareness, nondual awareness would be the right term for it.

We all know subject/object awareness exists (conventionally), we experience it 10,000 times a day. As for whether subject/object-free 'pure' awareness exists, well, that's (way!) above my pay grade, though I'm sure Buddha said something definitive about it.

There are certainly practitioners who'd be comfortable using that descriptive term from experience. And there are references to the presence of "nondual awareness" in some Of CNN's published material, among others.

Unless they are poor translations that are now more adequately superceded?

Or...might there be some mixing of "cognition" and "awareness" here?
Last edited by frankie on Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Archie2009
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Re: Choiceless awareness

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TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:23 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:38 pm
Rick wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:19 pm Krishnamurti regarded thought as limited, and that to experience the unlimited, if it existed, something other than thought was called for. He called this intelligence and said that being choicelessly aware in the present moment might enable intelligence to manifest.
There is no kind of awareness intelligence that can be found outside the mental aggregate.
Does that mean that pristine consciousness or the basis has no awareness? Apologies if this is not the appropriate place to ask this.
Rick wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:48 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:57 am There is no such thing as nondual awareness.
If awareness is taken to mean a subject (awarer) and an object (awared), nondual awareness makes no sense.

If awareness is taken to mean no subject, no object, just awareness, nondual awareness would be the right term for it.

We all know subject/object awareness exists (conventionally), we experience it 10,000 times a day. As for whether subject/object-free 'pure' awareness exists, well, that's (way!) above my pay grade, though I'm sure Buddha said something definitive about it.
I think an incorrect understanding of what rigpa is is the cause of confusion here. A still persistent early translation as 'awareness' does not help either. Realising rigpa would resolve this issue and take away all doubt. And subject object thinking appearing would not cease as long as you're a sentient being. Putting it into words, I think a description of the view would say rigpa does not exist nor does it not exist? (Please correct me if i'm wrong.)

After realising rigpa, texts like chos dbyings mdzod, etc. would make sense. Not having this realisation and engaging in speculation by letting your mind run wild and figuring things out intellectually will only get you more confused. Confusion is dispelled 'on the cushion'. When there is a need to have things put into words, read the texts and listen to modern teachings, but use them as a pointer. Don't turn into your own philosopher.

My 2 cents.
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Rick
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Rick »

Thanks, Archie.

I’m definitely rigpa-deficient.
Archie2009 wrote: Don't turn into your own philosopher.
Too late!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:48 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:57 am There is no such thing as nondual awareness.
If awareness is taken to mean a subject (awarer) and an object (awared), nondual awareness makes no sense.

If awareness is taken to mean no subject, no object, just awareness, nondual awareness would be the right term for it.

We all know subject/object awareness exists (conventionally), we experience it 10,000 times a day. As for whether subject/object-free 'pure' awareness exists, well, that's (way!) above my pay grade, though I'm sure Buddha said something definitive about it.
The term “awareness” itself implies a subject and an object. One cannot be aware of a nondual awareness, by definition, since it cannot be reflexively aware.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:25 pm
The term “awareness” itself implies a subject and an object. One cannot be aware of a nondual awareness, by definition, since it cannot be reflexively aware.
While that may be true, the subject/object dichotomy is not the same as the subject engaged in “choiceless awareness”.

It’s like, if someone hands me a lunch menu, yes there is a difference between me and the menu. But if I say, “oh bring me whatever—it doesn’t make any difference to me” this is like the meditator who simply observes. And at some point, the distinction between observer and that which is observed (subject and object) becomes moot. When choosing ceases, it ceases to be a cause. It is no longer a contributing factor supporting the subject/object duality.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:25 pm
The term “awareness” itself implies a subject and an object. One cannot be aware of a nondual awareness, by definition, since it cannot be reflexively aware.
While that may be true, the subject/object dichotomy is not the same as the subject engaged in “choiceless awareness”.

It’s like, if someone hands me a lunch menu, yes there is a difference between me and the menu. But if I say, “oh bring me whatever—it doesn’t make any difference to me” this is like the meditator who simply observes. And at some point, the distinction between observer and that which is observed (subject and object) becomes moot. When choosing ceases, it ceases to be a cause. It is no longer a contributing factor supporting the subject/object duality.
This is just just a form of indifference. What’s profound about that? This not even shamatha, much less insight.
KristenM
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by KristenM »

Archie2009 wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:45 am
TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:23 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:38 pm

There is no kind of awareness intelligence that can be found outside the mental aggregate.
Does that mean that pristine consciousness or the basis has no awareness? Apologies if this is not the appropriate place to ask this.
Rick wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:48 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:57 am There is no such thing as nondual awareness.
If awareness is taken to mean a subject (awarer) and an object (awared), nondual awareness makes no sense.

If awareness is taken to mean no subject, no object, just awareness, nondual awareness would be the right term for it.

We all know subject/object awareness exists (conventionally), we experience it 10,000 times a day. As for whether subject/object-free 'pure' awareness exists, well, that's (way!) above my pay grade, though I'm sure Buddha said something definitive about it.
I think an incorrect understanding of what rigpa is is the cause of confusion here. A still persistent early translation as 'awareness' does not help either. Realising rigpa would resolve this issue and take away all doubt. And subject object thinking appearing would not cease as long as you're a sentient being. Putting it into words, I think a description of the view would say rigpa does not exist nor does it not exist? (Please correct me if i'm wrong.)

After realising rigpa, texts like chos dbyings mdzod, etc. would make sense. Not having this realisation and engaging in speculation by letting your mind run wild and figuring things out intellectually will only get you more confused. Confusion is dispelled 'on the cushion'. When there is a need to have things put into words, read the texts and listen to modern teachings, but use them as a pointer. Don't turn into your own philosopher.

My 2 cents.

Like John McEnroe said, “Just answer the question”

Kidding...I did have a concern that the question was inappropriate. Should have trusted my gut.
frankie
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by frankie »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:25 pm
Rick wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:48 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:57 am There is no such thing as nondual awareness.
If awareness is taken to mean a subject (awarer) and an object (awared), nondual awareness makes no sense.

If awareness is taken to mean no subject, no object, just awareness, nondual awareness would be the right term for it.

We all know subject/object awareness exists (conventionally), we experience it 10,000 times a day. As for whether subject/object-free 'pure' awareness exists, well, that's (way!) above my pay grade, though I'm sure Buddha said something definitive about it.
The term “awareness” itself implies a subject and an object. One cannot be aware of a nondual awareness, by definition, since it cannot be reflexively aware.

Take the "One" out and you are non-dual awareness good to go.

Although this is a bit like trying to hold water with a fork. You can hold a wee bit, but words/concepts won't contain it or and quite get into the experience. I guess that was the heavy pedaglogical lifting and inspiration CNN was doing all that time. Damn he earned his rest!
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