Choiceless awareness

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
krodha
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by krodha »

Michael Tweed has said that in addition to Vimalamitra’s five definitions, one could feasibly add (i) the vidyā [rig pa] of the basis, (ii) vidyā of the path, (iii) vidyā of the result, and also (iv) vidyā as a synonym for sems, but still, even despite these other possible definitions, none of them trend towards vidyā as “awareness.”
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Matt J
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Location: Denver, CO

Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Matt J »

Any term is problematic. The terms themselves are pointers. Which is why with Dzogchen one needs a living teacher who can give pointing out and prescribe appropriate practices.

Different teachers use similar terms differently, and have different styles. In addition, different teachings may be presented to different students depending on the context. There is no one size fits all (which makes sense, given emptiness). And one need not be a Khenpo in order to practice. In fact, many teachers have reported that it is easier to teach people with less conceptual baggage.
krodha wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:30 pm Michael Tweed has said that in addition to Vimalamitra’s five definitions, one could feasibly add (i) the vidyā [rig pa] of the basis, (ii) vidyā of the path, (iii) vidyā of the result, and also (iv) vidyā as a synonym for sems, but still, even despite these other possible definitions, none of them trend towards vidyā as “awareness.”
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
PeterC
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PeterC »

Matt J wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:51 pm Any term is problematic. The terms themselves are pointers. Which is why with Dzogchen one needs a living teacher who can give pointing out and prescribe appropriate practices.

Different teachers use similar terms differently, and have different styles. In addition, different teachings may be presented to different students depending on the context. There is no one size fits all (which makes sense, given emptiness). And one need not be a Khenpo in order to practice. In fact, many teachers have reported that it is easier to teach people with less conceptual baggage.
“Awareness” is particularly problematic as a translation of Rigpa. And if what a teacher is saying is clearly different from what Vimalamitra is saying, I’m going with Vimalamitra.
Passing By
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by Passing By »

PeterC wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:20 am
Matt J wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:51 pm Any term is problematic. The terms themselves are pointers. Which is why with Dzogchen one needs a living teacher who can give pointing out and prescribe appropriate practices.

Different teachers use similar terms differently, and have different styles. In addition, different teachings may be presented to different students depending on the context. There is no one size fits all (which makes sense, given emptiness). And one need not be a Khenpo in order to practice. In fact, many teachers have reported that it is easier to teach people with less conceptual baggage.
“Awareness” is particularly problematic as a translation of Rigpa. And if what a teacher is saying is clearly different from what Vimalamitra is saying, I’m going with Vimalamitra.
In the case of Rigpa meaning knowledge of the Natural State, then yes, "awareness" would be inadequate but what about Rigpa when it refers to the conscious aspect of the Base? "Consciousness" also has issues because then it gets confused with the manifested conceptual mind or the senses.
PeterC
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by PeterC »

Passing By wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:21 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:20 am
Matt J wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:51 pm Any term is problematic. The terms themselves are pointers. Which is why with Dzogchen one needs a living teacher who can give pointing out and prescribe appropriate practices.

Different teachers use similar terms differently, and have different styles. In addition, different teachings may be presented to different students depending on the context. There is no one size fits all (which makes sense, given emptiness). And one need not be a Khenpo in order to practice. In fact, many teachers have reported that it is easier to teach people with less conceptual baggage.
“Awareness” is particularly problematic as a translation of Rigpa. And if what a teacher is saying is clearly different from what Vimalamitra is saying, I’m going with Vimalamitra.
In the case of Rigpa meaning knowledge of the Natural State, then yes, "awareness" would be inadequate but what about Rigpa when it refers to the conscious aspect of the Base? "Consciousness" also has issues because then it gets confused with the manifested conceptual mind or the senses.
Any translator who just renders that as 'awareness' is really not doing the reader a service, unless it's with a direct footnote on that word that explains the distinction.

Words like 'awareness' and 'consciousness' are, in general, not great choices for translation as we import a lot of pre-conceived ideas into them. Things like, for instance, Tony Duff's "alpha purity" might be a little aesthetically questionable, but at least they are unambiguously defined
muni
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Re: Choiceless awareness

Post by muni »

Throw that word awareness in the bin.

In guidance confusion is not offered. Could be not clear in texts.

There is awareness of an object, and there is empty spacious awareness- appearances. This is not "a person" - "aware of" - "something".

There is *vast awareness in which all can be*. Like vast insubstantial mirror - reflections.

Masters are helping, pointing nature beyond words. Life is short.

_/\_

I leave a note by Tsoknyi Rinpoche:

“If we can allow some space within our awareness and rest there, we can respect our troubling thoughts and emotions, allow them to come, and let them go. Our lives may be complicated on the outside, but we remain simple, easy, and open on the inside.”
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