Not sure where to go

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:45 amI don't even know what makes me happy or what I want because my emotions are a mess. Long ago I read buddhsim saying that desire was wrong and leads to suffering so I took that to mean that wanting things was bad and wrong, which led to me emotions being a mess and not really knowing what to do. Well that and other things.
Name just two things that people have suggested to you here, that you have given serious thought to, or reflected upon.
By serious, I mean more than 15 minutes.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Mitra-Sauwelios
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'Self-lightening thro other-lightening.'

Post by Mitra-Sauwelios »

Dear Ardha,

The problem as accurately defined by Buddhism is not so much suffering as it's unsatisfactoriness, and the cause is not so much desire as it's attachment. You may want to check out JimTempleman's excellent post An Interpretation of: 'To Turn Around': your desires are your guests and your heart is the host.

"[T]he folly came unto us, and not we unto it.
We offered that guest harbour and heart: now it dwelleth with us—let it stay as long as it will!"
(Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra, "Chastity", Common translation.)

Note that this doesn't just go for your ungratified desires, but also for your gratified ones: they will only stay as long as they "will", and unsatisfactoriness consists in the fact that their stay is always only temporary. The cause of unsatisfactoriness, then, is our being attached to our gratified desires (and our ungratified desires are really just anticipations of their gratified counterparts). So the solution is to strike at the root of the problem, and to loosen and even dissolve our attachment.

"He who binds himself to a joy
Does the wingèd life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sun rise."
(William Blake, "Eternity".)

He who binds himself to a joy destroys it by transforming it into unsatisfactoriness. So how to loosen or dissolve our attachments? There are many Buddhist paths to liberation, but I'd say the main "fold" of the path is the correct insight into emptiness or openness: in terms of JimTempleman's post, the hospitality of your luminous heartmind. This is the absolute bodhicitta, but it should be complemented by its relative counterpart, because this actually reinforces it: a bodhisattva is enlightened more than an arhat.

Hope this helps,

Oliver
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:50 am
Ardha wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:45 amI don't even know what makes me happy or what I want because my emotions are a mess. Long ago I read buddhsim saying that desire was wrong and leads to suffering so I took that to mean that wanting things was bad and wrong, which led to me emotions being a mess and not really knowing what to do. Well that and other things.
Name just two things that people have suggested to you here, that you have given serious thought to, or reflected upon.
By serious, I mean more than 15 minutes.
The answers seem to be missing the point. I'm not saying I count on temporary joys for permanent happiness. I know none of them last. I'm saying that if my desire for them goes then how could I enjoy them? Why seek to do such things that bring joy then without desire? Of course assuming the desires are yours even though you don't control them like the author of the book said.

Nowhere did I say that such things give lasting joy. My question was why would I do such things if that desire and attachment to them is gone. To me that sounds like a bland life of just sitting around, which to me sounds a lot like being dead. What reason would I have to go to the beach? To see a movie and enjoy it? Etc, etc.
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

People have answered these questions for you so many times, and you don’t seem to be listening.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:06 am…if my desire for them goes then how could I enjoy them?
So, you are basically asking:
How can you enjoy something you don’t want.


You can’t.



EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:06 amNowhere did I say that such things give lasting joy. My question was why would I do such things if that desire and attachment to them is gone.
You do them because they bring you temporary joy.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Why do we eat? Why do we sleep?

You could call it desire... need... wanting... whatever.

* * *

Everything we do, we do because we want "happiness" and to avoid "suffering." Do the work and think about that... you could contemplate it for a long long time and come to a profound understanding of human nature.

The "happiness" is anything positive that we feel, the "suffering" is anything negative we might feel. Why are you typing in this little box to all of us? What "happiness" do you seek to acquire? What could you hear that will satisfy you? Or relieve you of your worries?
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:32 am
Ardha wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:06 am…if my desire for them goes then how could I enjoy them?
So, you are basically asking:
How can you enjoy something you don’t want.


You can’t.



So then why strive to get rid of desire? Why tell me that you can still enjoy those things if according to you I can't? Would I just never want to go and do something like read a book or take a walk ever again?

I even reached out to the author again but I still didn't get it when he mentioned that desire is something to explore not be rid of:
"The message isn't that we should ignore or reject our desires. Rather, the message is that we should be curious about them, and explore what they are and where they are coming from. If I completely identify with my desires, "my desires are who I am", then there is nothing really to explore. Why do I want X? Because that's who I am. When I realize that I am not my desires, then I begin to ask some interesting questions about them, such as where did they come from? Perhaps they reflect external social and cultural influences. Perhaps they reflect evolutionary pressures. Perhaps they reflect biological processes in the body. It doesn't mean I should reject them. But having a better understanding of them would probably lead me to hold on to some desires but let go of others."
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:51 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:32 am
Ardha wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:06 am…if my desire for them goes then how could I enjoy them?
So, you are basically asking:
How can you enjoy something you don’t want.
You can’t.
So then why strive to get rid of desire? Why tell me that you can still enjoy those things if according to you I can't? Would I just never want to go and do something like read a book or take a walk ever again?

I even reached out to the author again but I still didn't get it when he mentioned that desire is something to explore not be rid of:
"The message isn't that we should ignore or reject our desires. Rather, the message is that we should be curious about them, and explore what they are and where they are coming from. If I completely identify with my desires, "my desires are who I am", then there is nothing really to explore. Why do I want X? Because that's who I am. When I realize that I am not my desires, then I begin to ask some interesting questions about them, such as where did they come from? Perhaps they reflect external social and cultural influences. Perhaps they reflect evolutionary pressures. Perhaps they reflect biological processes in the body. It doesn't mean I should reject them. But having a better understanding of them would probably lead me to hold on to some desires but let go of others."
Buddhism doesn’t say you can’t want and enjoy nice things.
Buddhism says not to cling to those things god lasting happiness, because they are only temporary.

You are under the impression that Buddhism says not to desire anything.
That’s not entirely accurate.
Desire is the root of attachment.
Attachment is the issue.
So, if you can desire things without developing attachment, then do that.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:55 pm
Ardha wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:51 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:32 am
So, you are basically asking:
How can you enjoy something you don’t want.
You can’t.
So then why strive to get rid of desire? Why tell me that you can still enjoy those things if according to you I can't? Would I just never want to go and do something like read a book or take a walk ever again?

I even reached out to the author again but I still didn't get it when he mentioned that desire is something to explore not be rid of:
"The message isn't that we should ignore or reject our desires. Rather, the message is that we should be curious about them, and explore what they are and where they are coming from. If I completely identify with my desires, "my desires are who I am", then there is nothing really to explore. Why do I want X? Because that's who I am. When I realize that I am not my desires, then I begin to ask some interesting questions about them, such as where did they come from? Perhaps they reflect external social and cultural influences. Perhaps they reflect evolutionary pressures. Perhaps they reflect biological processes in the body. It doesn't mean I should reject them. But having a better understanding of them would probably lead me to hold on to some desires but let go of others."
Buddhism doesn’t say you can’t want and enjoy nice things.
Buddhism says not to cling to those things god lasting happiness, because they are only temporary.

You are under the impression that Buddhism says not to desire anything.
That’s not entirely accurate.
Desire is the root of attachment.
Attachment is the issue.
So, if you can desire things without developing attachment, then do that.
But I don't cling to them. Though I feel bad for wanting them. Like I might decide I want a milkshake. I don't think that it's going to be the one answer to all my life issues, I just want it, enjoy, toss it. Same reason I do other things or something I haven't done before. If it's new I want to see what it's like, and if it's old it's because I like it. I don't think it fills some void in me or some thing like that. But what I get is that its BAD to want these things and to do them.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:32 amBut what I get is that its BAD to want these things and to do them.
It’s what you get?

Well, you didn’t get it from the Buddha.
So why do you keep bringing it up in a Buddhist context?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

1. On wanting and clinging... We don’t try to practice letting go because Buddha said “clinging is bad.” (The Buddha gave no commandments.) We practice letting go because Buddha taught us how wanting, clinging and attachment will actually cause suffering for us. It’s not about being “good” or “bad.” It’s about understanding how we unconsciously create suffering for ourselves and deciding we don’t want to do that to ourselves anymore.

2. I think we actually can enjoy things if we’re not desiring them or clinging to them. In fact, we can enjoy life even more when our experience isn’t poisoned by the afflictions (aka the five poisons). Without clinging to a self, everything becomes much more light and free. The happiness and joy will come spontaneously from within. It just happens when the mind learns to release all of its clinging.
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Ardha wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:32 am
Buddhism doesn’t say you can’t want and enjoy nice things.
Buddhism says not to cling to those things god lasting happiness, because they are only temporary.

You are under the impression that Buddhism says not to desire anything.
That’s not entirely accurate.
Desire is the root of attachment.
Attachment is the issue.
So, if you can desire things without developing attachment, then do that.
But I don't cling to them. Though I feel bad for wanting them.
It sounds like you fundamentally misunderstand what clinging means in Buddhism. For example, feeling bad (guilt) is a type of aversion. And that’s a kind of clinging.

I don’t know how to explain what clinging is... (aka grasping) I learned it from mindfulness meditation in Theravada as well as from Thich Nhat Hanh. To really understand it, you should learn it in a meditation context.

Grasping (clinging) is like... you’re holding onto something very tightly. The afflictions are what cause us to do this, and it actually causes us pain on a subtle level... Then with mindfulness practice, you learn slowly how to let go of all of that tight holding. As the mind loosens up, all of the tension associated with that thing in the mind you just let go of will release. When the tension releases, you’ll feel a feeling of relief... you can finally relax a bit more. Releasing attachments and clinging will help you relax and find a deeper sense of ease and natural happiness. You won’t need externals to make you happy. It will come from within.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

You are under the impression that Buddhism says not to desire anything.
That’s not entirely accurate.
Desire is the root of attachment.
Attachment is the issue.
So, if you can desire things without developing attachment, then do that.
Ardha wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:32 am But I don't cling to them. Though I feel bad for wanting them.
If you feel bad for wanting something,
Then you are definitely clinging to it.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
PeterC
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PeterC »

Ardha wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:32 amBut what I get is that its BAD to want these things and to do them.
You do realize, don't you, that most people don't achieve a state of complete unattached liberation immediately? You seem to be complaining that you aren't fully liberated right this moment. You should be more concerned about whether you're actually doing any work to achieve liberation or not. Lots of practical advice has been given to you. Have you put any of it into practice? If not, then you're just wasting your own and everyone else's time.
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:15 am
Ardha wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:32 am
Buddhism doesn’t say you can’t want and enjoy nice things.
Buddhism says not to cling to those things god lasting happiness, because they are only temporary.

You are under the impression that Buddhism says not to desire anything.
That’s not entirely accurate.
Desire is the root of attachment.
Attachment is the issue.
So, if you can desire things without developing attachment, then do that.
But I don't cling to them. Though I feel bad for wanting them.
It sounds like you fundamentally misunderstand what clinging means in Buddhism. For example, feeling bad (guilt) is a type of aversion. And that’s a kind of clinging.

I don’t know how to explain what clinging is... (aka grasping) I learned it from mindfulness meditation in Theravada as well as from Thich Nhat Hanh. To really understand it, you should learn it in a meditation context.

Grasping (clinging) is like... you’re holding onto something very tightly. The afflictions are what cause us to do this, and it actually causes us pain on a subtle level... Then with mindfulness practice, you learn slowly how to let go of all of that tight holding. As the mind loosens up, all of the tension associated with that thing in the mind you just let go of will release. When the tension releases, you’ll feel a feeling of relief... you can finally relax a bit more. Releasing attachments and clinging will help you relax and find a deeper sense of ease and natural happiness. You won’t need externals to make you happy. It will come from within.
But the issue I have is that if I want to do something then that is considered a bad thing and that you are grasping or reaching for something. Like wanting to go see a new movie would be considered a bad thing even though to me it just looks interesting and I want to see it. Then once it's over I'm like "ok that was good", but I don't cling to it for some misguided everlasting happiness. It was just something I wanted to do. But apparently wanting to do that is wrong.

I can just sit and be while taking in everything around me, not having to be anywhere or do anything. But there is stuff I want to do and like doing, but what I get is that Buddhism would have me just sit blissed out in a room with four walls and never do anything else but eat and sleep. That wanting to go fishing, travel, draw, would be bad because it's seeking externals (even though that's not what it's like). If attachment is gripping on to them hoping they'll last forever then I don't really do that (I think). I enjoy it for however long it lasts and when that is over I just let it go. Kind of like buying a new video game, you play it a while, and then you trade it in or give it to someone else when you're done with it. It was nice while it lasted but that's about it.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:17 am But the issue I have is —-
You are ignoring every reply that has already been offered to you so far in this forum. Why?
EMPTIFUL.
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PeterC
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PeterC »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:11 am
Ardha wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:17 am But the issue I have is —-
You are ignoring every reply that has already been offered to you so far in this forum. Why?
You can bring a horse to water, but why bother, horse will drink when it’s thirsty and not before and we all have better things to do with our time than leading a horse around
Malcolm
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Malcolm »

Ardha wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:17 am
I can just sit and be while taking in everything around me, not having to be anywhere or do anything. But there is stuff I want to do and like doing, but what I get is that Buddhism would have me just sit blissed out in a room with four walls and never do anything else but eat and sleep.
No, That’s Samkhya. Buddhism wants you to get out and help people.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Ardha wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:17 am But the issue I have is that if I want to do something then that is considered a bad thing and that you are grasping or reaching for something. Like wanting to go see a new movie would be considered a bad thing even though to me it just looks interesting and I want to see it. Then once it's over I'm like "ok that was good", but I don't cling to it for some misguided everlasting happiness. It was just something I wanted to do. But apparently wanting to do that is wrong.

I can just sit and be while taking in everything around me, not having to be anywhere or do anything. But there is stuff I want to do and like doing, but what I get is that Buddhism would have me just sit blissed out in a room with four walls and never do anything else but eat and sleep. That wanting to go fishing, travel, draw, would be bad because it's seeking externals (even though that's not what it's like). If attachment is gripping on to them hoping they'll last forever then I don't really do that (I think). I enjoy it for however long it lasts and when that is over I just let it go. Kind of like buying a new video game, you play it a while, and then you trade it in or give it to someone else when you're done with it. It was nice while it lasted but that's about it.
Okay... Good.

It's not Buddhism that's saying don't go to the movies, this is Ardha's thoughts about what Buddhism says. And your response to the first sentence in bold actually sounds very Buddhist to me. Once something is finished, you move on. No strings attached! If you can live in a way where you're not bothered or emotionally affected by things after they've already happened, this is a powerful way to be. (And it's also at the heart of Buddha's teachings.)

The trick is... can you just sit and be? If you can, then there's no problem. You're fine. There's no suffering going on. If you're bothered by something that happened or something someone said, this indicates some kind of clinging to situation that disturbs your mind. If there's something disturbing you, you'll need to find a way to let go! (And there are so many methods for doing so.)

If you can just be in the moment, without being carried off by your emotions and thoughts... this is the essence of meditation. Even if you are just present for 3 seconds, that's 3 seconds of meditation.

You have this idea that "Buddhism" is telling you to cut yourself off from the world. Perhaps to lock yourself in a room and never come out. But what you fail to realize is that this advice (if a teacher even tells this to their student) is only for a select few who are able to live their lives in full seclusion. Such advice is only given directly from one's teacher, and is only suitable for people of the highest capacity. (ie. Not you, lol!)

And seclusion is only one way of authentically practicing Buddhadharma among many. And actually, most practitioners of the highest capacity won't be living in seclusion anyway. After having achieved an advanced level of realization that becomes possible when practices in retreat conditions, often they will come out of retreat and become teachers. So they don't live their whole lives in retreat.

They will still find solitude and quiet every day as they go deep into meditation... but after their meditation, they will come out and interact with the world. For some people, this will be for a few hours a day... for others, 20 minutes.

As for your sentence in bold... well, this isn't what Buddhism says. I don't know where you got this idea... Oh wait, I think I do. Perhaps from your man Jed McKenna from the other thread you started: "Are things that make you feel good bad?" And people have already gone to great lengths telling you that his views are incorrect and that he does not represent Buddhism. So why not just forget him and move on?
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