Not sure where to go

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MagnetSoulSP
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Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

So I read the last part of a book called 21 lessons for the 21st century and got to the part about meaning.

A lot of it made sense, that much of life as we currently know it are the stories we tell and that when we ask about meaning we are really asking for "tell me a story where all of this makes sense". I can grasp that. Even parts about our personal narratives. We don't control what we believe or desire, same with emotions. We don't decide how we feel about something, and so it concludes that these things aren't us. And since everything changes that there is ultimately nothing that persists that could worry about an afterlife.

Though after all that I felt hollow and was left with more questions than answers. If I'm not my desires then is listening to them lying to myself? What do I do and how do I enjoy things if none of this is me? How should I live, or is that even a valid question to ask.
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:01 pm We don't control what we believe or desire, same with emotions. We don't decide how we feel about something
This is a popular idea right now.
It is highly debatable.
I think a lot of Buddhists would disagree.
I think the Buddha would disagree.
Buddhist teachings are very much about not only how to control one’s own mind with regard to how we experience things,
…but also about how we experience things.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
muni
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by muni »

Ardha wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:01 pm So I read the last part of a book called 21 lessons for the 21st century and got to the part about meaning.

A lot of it made sense, that much of life as we currently know it are the stories we tell and that when we ask about meaning we are really asking for "tell me a story where all of this makes sense". I can grasp that. Even parts about our personal narratives. We don't control what we believe or desire, same with emotions. We don't decide how we feel about something, and so it concludes that these things aren't us. And since everything changes that there is ultimately nothing that persists that could worry about an afterlife.

Though after all that I felt hollow and was left with more questions than answers. If I'm not my desires then is listening to them lying to myself? What do I do and how do I enjoy things if none of this is me? How should I live, or is that even a valid question to ask.
Thanks as you seem to show inquiry.

When consciousness is in the stories, we are lost in them and so easy lost in desire. Then there is no control of mind.

And so we are the slave of mind. However we can master the mind or be aware of all what moves in it.

"If you master your mind, it will remain naturally concentrated, peaceful and aware. You will even be able to wander around in a crowd without being distracted and carried away by desire or aversion." Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Ayu »

Because the book mentioned as base of the question is not about Buddhism, and the question in the OP itself is not really about Dharma / Buddhism, I moved this topic from Dharma in Everyday Life to the Lounge.

I hope this measure prevents further misunderstandings.
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by muni »

PeterC
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PeterC »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:59 am
Ardha wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:01 pm We don't control what we believe or desire, same with emotions. We don't decide how we feel about something
This is a popular idea right now.
It is highly debatable.
Is it popular? It is flat out wrong.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

PeterC wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:59 am
Ardha wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:01 pm We don't control what we believe or desire, same with emotions. We don't decide how we feel about something
This is a popular idea right now.
It is highly debatable.
Is it popular? It is flat out wrong.
I’ve heard it repeated a lot, something about a kind of biological destiny, that our brains are pre-wired in such a way that ultimately there is no such thing as ‘free will’ .
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
yinyangkoi
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by yinyangkoi »

PeterC wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:59 am
Ardha wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:01 pm We don't control what we believe or desire, same with emotions. We don't decide how we feel about something
This is a popular idea right now.
It is highly debatable.
Is it popular? It is flat out wrong.
Why is it wrong? Buddha said himself there is no free will since there is no self that can have any. Also since everything is conditioned, what you desire and any other phenomena that manifests is just a result of conditioning.
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Ayu
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Ayu »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:52 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:59 am
This is a popular idea right now.
It is highly debatable.
Is it popular? It is flat out wrong.
Why is it wrong? Buddha said himself there is no free will since there is no self that can have any. Also since everything is conditioned, what you desire and any other phenomena that manifests is just a result of conditioning.
Everything is conditioned? Who said that?
PeterC
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PeterC »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:52 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:59 am
This is a popular idea right now.
It is highly debatable.
Is it popular? It is flat out wrong.
Why is it wrong? Buddha said himself there is no free will since there is no self that can have any. Also since everything is conditioned, what you desire and any other phenomena that manifests is just a result of conditioning.
That is not at all what he said. The Buddha did not take this sort of extreme determinist position.
Malcolm
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Malcolm »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:52 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:59 am
This is a popular idea right now.
It is highly debatable.
Is it popular? It is flat out wrong.
Why is it wrong? Buddha said himself there is no free will since there is no self that can have any. Also since everything is conditioned, what you desire and any other phenomena that manifests is just a result of conditioning.
The Buddha never discussed free will. It is a philosophical issue of interest only to Christians.

What the Buddha said is that will is action.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:16 am
yinyangkoi wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:52 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm

Is it popular? It is flat out wrong.
Why is it wrong? Buddha said himself there is no free will since there is no self that can have any. Also since everything is conditioned, what you desire and any other phenomena that manifests is just a result of conditioning.
The Buddha never discussed free will. It is a philosophical issue of interest only to Christians.

What the Buddha said is that will is action.
To paraphrase an Arabic saying, you don’t have control over the cards you have been dealt, but you have control over how you play the cards you have.
Likewise, although one’s present situation is the karmic result of previous actions (of body, speech, and mind) and that can’t be altered, where one goes from this point forward is completely up to the person. Even if we cannot control out environment, our circumstances, we can control how we respond to those conditions.
If the Buddha thought otherwise, there would be no eightfold path, much less anything that follows.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:26 pm Develop Bodhicitta
:good:

Ardha, why don't you look into Mingyur Rinpoche's online meditation course "The Joy of Living"? It's really good. Along with the book, also called "The Joy of Living," I think it would answer a lot of your questions.
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:35 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:26 pm Develop Bodhicitta
:good:

Ardha, why don't you look into Mingyur Rinpoche's online meditation course "The Joy of Living"? It's really good. Along with the book, also called "The Joy of Living," I think it would answer a lot of your questions.
I'm more looking into whether what he said is true or not. I have a bad habit of reading something and taking it to be true unless someone counters it with something else.

If the desires and feelings aren't my own then...well I don't know. Does that mean I'm not sad if my dog dies? Or that I don't enjoy swimming in the ocean?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:44 am If the desires and feelings aren't my own then...well I don't know. Does that mean I'm not sad if my dog dies? Or that I don't enjoy swimming in the ocean?
Of course they are yours. That’s not the point.
Go back and read what was posted before.
You can enjoy the ocean without relying on the ocean for your happiness. That’s because happiness doesn’t come from the ocean, but from your own mind. If you were stranded out in the middle of it, you wouldn’t be too happy about it.
If your dog dies (mine recently did) you will be sad about it, but also glad if it means he or she isn’t in pain.

That’s what it means to ask whether your attachment is to other people or to yourself, to your own emotions.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
PeterC
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by PeterC »

Ardha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:44 am I have a bad habit of reading something and taking it to be true unless someone counters it with something else.
You should change that habit.
If the desires and feelings aren't my own then...well I don't know. Does that mean I'm not sad if my dog dies? Or that I don't enjoy swimming in the ocean?
Who is sad? Or enjoys?
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Kim O'Hara »

PeterC wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:25 am
Ardha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:44 am I have a bad habit of reading something and taking it to be true unless someone counters it with something else.
You should change that habit.
:thumbsup:

Yes, but it can be hard sometimes. However, noticing that it happens is the first step towards controlling it.
:thinking:

Going right back to the OP to provide some context for anyone who hasn't read the book - 21 Lessons for the 21st Century is by Harari, who made a big name for himself with Sapiens. His Lessons look at the challenges facing humanity and encourage us to think clearly about them, and in his final chapters he recommends Buddhist meditation techniques to help us think more clearly. It surprised me when I read the book but I found he has a strong Vipassana (Goenka) background and ongoing practice.

It's a good book and he's a smart guy ... but there are always other perspectives.

:namaste:
Kim
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:19 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:25 am
Ardha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:44 am I have a bad habit of reading something and taking it to be true unless someone counters it with something else.
You should change that habit.
:thumbsup:

Yes, but it can be hard sometimes. However, noticing that it happens is the first step towards controlling it.
:thinking:

Going right back to the OP to provide some context for anyone who hasn't read the book - 21 Lessons for the 21st Century is by Harari, who made a big name for himself with Sapiens. His Lessons look at the challenges facing humanity and encourage us to think clearly about them, and in his final chapters he recommends Buddhist meditation techniques to help us think more clearly. It surprised me when I read the book but I found he has a strong Vipassana (Goenka) background and ongoing practice.

It's a good book and he's a smart guy ... but there are always other perspectives.

:namaste:
Kim
But he didn't really answer any questions in regard to it. Like with desire. You say you can still enjoy the ocean without depending on happiness but according to him such a desire isn't mine. And if I wasn't dependent on it for my happiness then why would I seek it out or anything else? Seems to me like I would just do nothing at all at that point and I'm not sure I want to live like that.

But just to give clarity this is the response I sent him:
Hi. I’m not sure if you’ll get this but I’ll try anyway. I got caught up in the chapter in the book on meaning because I was struggling with nihilism for a long time and wondering what to do with my life if nothing mattered.
Read through that though much of it made sense and part of it is stuff I already knew as a kid. I looked out and thought how amazing it was that we have created such a world to live it yet in some way it felt different from what IS.

Anyway much of what you said I heard before in Buddhist texts and didn’t understand it until I saw it broken down. Though I’m left with more questions. If I don’t control my desires then do I still follow them if they “aren’t me”? But if there is no me then who is following them? Stuff like that.

It also raises questions for me as a gay man and I saw in your acknowledgements that you are gay as well. I just wanted your input on how you reconciled such things as it’s a bit confusing to me to be honest. Like I “get it” and yet “don’t get it”.

Anywho, hope you get this.
And this is what he replied to me:
This is one of the most ancient and most important questions encountered by anybody who embarks one a serious journey of inner exploration. As long as I simply identify with the constant stream of thoughts and feelings that pop up in my mind, I think I know exactly who I am. Once I stop identifying with whatever pops up in my mind, I start asking "so who am I? and who is observing all these thoughts and feelings? and who is asking these questions? and who can find out the truth?". There is no easy intellectual answer to any of these questions. The only way to answer them, is to directly observe the reality, which is a very difficult thing to do, which is why most people never do it, and instead settle for this or that intellectual theory about "the self".
If you are seriously interested in getting an answer, I would recommend committing to a practice of inner exploration, accepting that it usually takes years - rather than days and weeks - to start getting real answers. The practice can be meditation, but it can also be therapy, art or even sports. Different practices work better for different people. The only thing that NEVER works for anybody, is purely intellectual speculation.

As for being gay, realising the power that fictional stories have over people is liberating. In many parts of the world it is sometimes argued that gay people are evil, because they break the laws of God or the laws of nature. These beliefs cause a lot of suffering to millions. But in truth, these beliefs are just fictional stories invented by humans in the past. If two men love one another, how does this harm anyone, and why should this be evil? Even if there is a God, no good God will punish humans for love. God may sure punish people for hatred and violence, but not for love.
As for the laws of nature, you can never break them. If something exists, it is by definition natural. If two men love each other, it means that no law of nature prevents it. Things that really break the laws of nature – like airplanes that fly faster than the speed of light – just don’t exist.
As you can see he didn't really answer anything just dodged the questions, especially with the gay part.
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Re: Not sure where to go

Post by Bristollad »

Ardha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:32 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:19 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:25 am

You should change that habit.
:thumbsup:

Yes, but it can be hard sometimes. However, noticing that it happens is the first step towards controlling it.
:thinking:

Going right back to the OP to provide some context for anyone who hasn't read the book - 21 Lessons for the 21st Century is by Harari, who made a big name for himself with Sapiens. His Lessons look at the challenges facing humanity and encourage us to think clearly about them, and in his final chapters he recommends Buddhist meditation techniques to help us think more clearly. It surprised me when I read the book but I found he has a strong Vipassana (Goenka) background and ongoing practice.

It's a good book and he's a smart guy ... but there are always other perspectives.

:namaste:
Kim
But he didn't really answer any questions in regard to it. Like with desire. You say you can still enjoy the ocean without depending on happiness but according to him such a desire isn't mine. And if I wasn't dependent on it for my happiness then why would I seek it out or anything else? Seems to me like I would just do nothing at all at that point and I'm not sure I want to live like that.

But just to give clarity this is the response I sent him:
Hi. I’m not sure if you’ll get this but I’ll try anyway. I got caught up in the chapter in the book on meaning because I was struggling with nihilism for a long time and wondering what to do with my life if nothing mattered.
Read through that though much of it made sense and part of it is stuff I already knew as a kid. I looked out and thought how amazing it was that we have created such a world to live it yet in some way it felt different from what IS.

Anyway much of what you said I heard before in Buddhist texts and didn’t understand it until I saw it broken down. Though I’m left with more questions. If I don’t control my desires then do I still follow them if they “aren’t me”? But if there is no me then who is following them? Stuff like that.

It also raises questions for me as a gay man and I saw in your acknowledgements that you are gay as well. I just wanted your input on how you reconciled such things as it’s a bit confusing to me to be honest. Like I “get it” and yet “don’t get it”.

Anywho, hope you get this.
And this is what he replied to me:
This is one of the most ancient and most important questions encountered by anybody who embarks one a serious journey of inner exploration. As long as I simply identify with the constant stream of thoughts and feelings that pop up in my mind, I think I know exactly who I am. Once I stop identifying with whatever pops up in my mind, I start asking "so who am I? and who is observing all these thoughts and feelings? and who is asking these questions? and who can find out the truth?". There is no easy intellectual answer to any of these questions. The only way to answer them, is to directly observe the reality, which is a very difficult thing to do, which is why most people never do it, and instead settle for this or that intellectual theory about "the self".
If you are seriously interested in getting an answer, I would recommend committing to a practice of inner exploration, accepting that it usually takes years - rather than days and weeks - to start getting real answers. The practice can be meditation, but it can also be therapy, art or even sports. Different practices work better for different people. The only thing that NEVER works for anybody, is purely intellectual speculation.

As for being gay, realising the power that fictional stories have over people is liberating. In many parts of the world it is sometimes argued that gay people are evil, because they break the laws of God or the laws of nature. These beliefs cause a lot of suffering to millions. But in truth, these beliefs are just fictional stories invented by humans in the past. If two men love one another, how does this harm anyone, and why should this be evil? Even if there is a God, no good God will punish humans for love. God may sure punish people for hatred and violence, but not for love.
As for the laws of nature, you can never break them. If something exists, it is by definition natural. If two men love each other, it means that no law of nature prevents it. Things that really break the laws of nature – like airplanes that fly faster than the speed of light – just don’t exist.
As you can see he didn't really answer anything just dodged the questions, especially with the gay part.
I don't really see any dodging going on myself. His answer is to tell you to commit to a practice of inner exploration and find out for yourself. What other answer are you expecting? What other answer would you accept?
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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